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Old 08-10-2005, 04:43 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Debate happens here, maybe this will help.

In our house debate is a hobby, philosophy, science and reasoning itself is debated. Only once has this led to an argument and that was because we both crossed the line and rules that govern our chosen activity!

Those rules are sometimes clarified but mostly accepted because of a shared understanding of what's expected of each speaker in the debate. Neither of us expect the other to accept a fallacy and therefore neither of us are disappointed or angry when the other calls it.

An example of a fallacy is:

Quote:
Single Cause

Life is complex, and people have a tendency to over-simplify, so when someone is attributing a single cause to something that has many causes, they may be committing the Single Cause fallacy.

The cause of the traffic problems in this city is old people who drive too slowly.

There are many factors in traffic congestion, including the quality of the road infrastructure, the number of people hitting the roads at any time or the likelihood of accidents happening. To attribute it to just one cause is simplistic.
I've found an excellent webpage - edited by the BBC that outlines common fallacies, I think they are worth reading for anyone but ESPECIALLY anyone who is involved with debate on issues they care deeply about.

Here is the conclusion from the same page:
Quote:
Conclusion

In any debate on the radio, on the TV, in the home, you may be subjected to a barrage of fallacies that are designed, either consciously or unconsciously, to convince you without providing proper proof. Being aware of these fallacies will help you to better understand which arguments to accept, and which to reject.
Reference - Logical Fallacies in Everyday Use

Being aware of these helps in giving some common ground of expectation, it can reduce frustration and allow us to evaluate better what we and others say.

I know it matters to me and helps - maybe it will help here too.
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Old 08-10-2005, 04:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
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yes, and so true.
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I feel that debate around here can be muddied by cultural differences...what seems to be common language to one seems rude,offensive and attacking to others.
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
...what seems to be common language to one seems rude,offensive and attacking to others.
As that sounds unpleasant my suggestion is gaining some common understanding is helpful. I think the above is an unhelpful status quo. I think the article is very good and those fallicies listed are widely accepted (google to check) - on top if that they expalin WHY they are fallacies - it's not suggested that the reader must conclude they are because they are told to.
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Life affirming beliefs are at stake. We are not arguing over who should do the weekly shopping...
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:18 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known. - Carl Sagan
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
- Albert Einstein
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Infact I dont think I have ever been in such a existential nightmare - not knowing what the hell to believe, full of self doubt: morality, religion, freedom, choice arrrrrrrrrrrghhh its exhausting.
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:26 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.
I may be a million miles off 'truth' here but our way (in our house) isn't an unkind flaming for every fallacy seen - we often use fallacy without even knowing it, more that it's the common acceptance between us which can allow us to think deeply and express honestly our thoughts. It's not a judgement of another as much as something I use to judge my own basis for belief.

I love what you quoted and agree with it whole heartedly, this like any other knowledge can either be used to hurt or to help. BUT I think here most people's heart is to help so I hope it is helpful.
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:30 AM   #9 (permalink)
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To separate the opinion I disagree with, from the person who puts it forth, is an art very few of us are acquainted with. I fall well short a lot of the time.
Being aware of that is important, I think.
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Old 08-10-2005, 09:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Yup. I stay away from most of the debates here because I've decided most don't really contribute to my sobriety, such as it is. They just play to my already oversized ego, and engender resentments. That's just how it is for me, not a criticism of anyone else, by the way. But I do think they'd be more productive if people started with the assumption that nothing is intentionally meant to offend. Too many of the posts I've read seem consist of volleys in which people expressing outrage or dismay that their posts were read in the most challenging or offensive way possible.

That's just a wordy way of saying I like your ground rules, Equus.
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Old 08-10-2005, 01:35 PM   #11 (permalink)
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My Dad always told me, "It's my way or the highway." I debated it or I drank all his beer but never both. I sure saw the logical fallacies go by in everyday use. I thought we was just trying to make me mad so I would drink his beer. I definitely spent too much time fighting it. So today when I see them I just gotta laugh. The other day I told my Dad that I was depressed and he said, Your Depressed, so change your ways. Pretty funny, as I have been at least mildly depressed since I took the first drink. But I am as happy as I have ever been in the rooms of AA, and online here at SR.

Thanks

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