Its me again

[icecream pete]

Hi,
I was gonna have a whine about stuff, AA not working, bad choice of sponsor etc etc etc, but the truth is I cant seem to stop drinking. It is so engrained in what I am and what I do, no matter how I rationalise it or look at the sheer stupidity of it, I just go and do it again and again and again.

Each day I start anew, enough, no more only to stumble at the first hurdle. I want to be normal, but clearly not enough. I am like two people, me and the boozer and the boozer always wins no matter how I try.

I am so tired of this constant battle, one sided tho it is.

I know that I cant win, I just want to stop drinking, for good.but wanting it is not enough it seems.

I really could use some help

Pete

[Cathy31]

Hi Pete
I'm really sorry you are not feeling good today. I am around for a bit longer - do you want to meet in chat? Let me know if you do. I promise you I will keep you in my prayers tonight. Sometimes we just need to maybe go through times like this to make our reserve even stronger later...you will get there. Just be patient. Don't give up on AA. Keep trying you can do it.
I'm thinking of you -
Cathy31
x

[mikee]

Say Pete, where do you stand with your HP?

[In memory of miracle]

Good to see you again.I can identify with what you posted and for the longest time I could not surrender to the fact that as an alcoholic everytime i drank the result's would be the same.Misery and Remorse and that horrible nameless fear.I had a notion in the back of my mind that somehow "This time will be different" or the ever popular "Just one".In the first step it say's "Who want's to admit complete defete?Practically no-one! I urge you to read it and recomitt to AA,it work's,it really does ! Keep the faith..Bless,Trish

[Music]

Originally Posted by icecream pete

Hi,
I was gonna have a whine about stuff, AA not working, bad choice of sponsor etc etc etc, but the truth is I cant seem to stop drinking. It is so engrained in what I am and what I do, no matter how I rationalise it or look at the sheer stupidity of it, I just go and do it again and again and again.

Each day I start anew, enough, no more only to stumble at the first hurdle. I want to be normal, but clearly not enough. I am like two people, me and the boozer and the boozer always wins no matter how I try.

I am so tired of this constant battle, one sided tho it is.

I know that I cant win, I just want to stop drinking, for good.but wanting it is not enough it seems.

I really could use some help

Pete

You're absolutely right Pete. Wanting it isn't enough. You have to do something about it. The reason AA isn't working and the sponsor sucks is because you want to drink more than you want to do what you're supposed to do to stay sober. Simple as that. It is and will be a constant battle until and unless you GIVE UP!! Surrender the fight. Stay out of the ring. Don't put on the gloves. You get your butt kicked every time just like I did. It just didn't occur to me to stay the hell out of the ring. I kept thinking if I could just duck and dodge one more time, I'd learn how to fight. Never did. I hung up the gloves before booze really kicked my butt. Punch drunk and a wet brain are synonymous.

[Don S]

Hi, Pete,

Sorry you're feeling so bad about yourself right now. Quitting drinking isn't a matter of wanting to. It's a matter of changing your beliefs and your actions. Sometimes we have to change the actions first -- by not buying the stuff, for example -- even when we really don't want the discomfort of sobriety. Remove the opportunity and make it inconvenient to drink.

When you're planning to quit one of the most important things is dealing with urges. Here's something from a web site I really like, by Dr. Robert Sarmiento:

"Here are some specific methods to try [for resisting urges]:

Just accepting the urge can help. It's okay to have urges - everybody does.
It's what you do with the urge that counts.

Ignore the urge. Keep it at a distance, like a thought going in one ear and
out the other.

Detach yourself from the urge. Think of the urge as "it" and study it. What
does it feel like?

Rate the urge. How strong is it on a one to ten scale? Are you
exaggerating? Compare the discomfort of resisting the urge to other
possible discomforts, like being boiled alive in oil or having your
fingernails pulled out one at a time. [...or skipping food all day, or running a marathon, or....]

Distract yourself. Do something. Go out. Call someone. Get absorbed in a
task. Exercise. Remind yourself of the benefits of resisting and the long
term costs of giving in.

Remember a "moment of clarity" when you realized your habit is a problem.

Try relaxing yourself by imagining a peaceful scene.

Visualize yourself in the near future feeling good about having resisted
the urge. Paint a mental picture of how badly you will feel if you give in,
like a scene with you hugging the toilet bowl with the title, "Drinking is
Fun".

Personify the urge by calling it the inner brat, the alcohol salesman in
your head, the "beast"....

Remind yourself that the urge will pass. Think about other urges you have that you routinely resist. How do you do that?

Develop coping statements, thoughts that counter urge causing ideas. For example, if you are thinking, "I deserve a drink try telling yourself, "Even though it is unfair that I have this problem, drinking is not a wise choice for me."

After you begin to develop some mastery of your urges, you may want to
confront them rather than just waiting until they happen. There are many
ways to do this, for example: Try visualizing a situation in the past where
you had a strong urge, like running a videotape in your head. At first,
allow yourself to feel the urge and react as you did. They run the tape
again and without changing anything, force yourself to see yourself
resisting the urge. Practice this repeatedly until you get a feel for how
you can do it. This is like "instant replay". Mentally "rehearse" a
situation that might happen in the future doing the same "switching" of
your feelings and reactions.

Try to make yourself have an urge, as for example in thinking about your
"drug of choice". This will probably be less intense and more "controlled",
so it will give you a chance to practice, like practicing all week before
the big game on the weekend.

Practice, Practice, Practice"

*Copyright © 1995, Robert F. Sarmiento, Ph.D., All Rights Reserved
http://www.cyberpsych.com/


Don S

[BubbaBob]

..."ingrained" crap...it don't wash here.

You want ingrained? I'm 50 and have been an alcoholic for 33 years. An active alcoholic for 32 of them. The last two years of my drinking it was a half a gallon of gin a day, EVERY day. When did I drink? Easy...when I was awake. So much for "ingrained".

It won't do for you to want to quit.

It won't do for you to really want to quit.

It won't do for you to Really want to quit.

You gotta REALLY want to quit...and be willing to do WHATEVER IT TAKES.

How many meetings you been to the last week?

How many times you called your sponsor in the last week?

Did you call your sponsor before you drank?

Somebody else asked, but I'll ask again...how's the Higher Power relationship thing going?

Whatever it takes. Nothing...NOTHING else will work.

BubbaBob

[Don S]

Hey, Pete, let me also suggest that if you aren't finding the AA approach useful, do some reading and research about other approaches.

A good book to start with for a behavioral approach is
When AA Doesn't Work for You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol,
by Albert Ellis and Emmett Velten, Ph.D.

Sober for Good, by Anne Fletcher, gives good examples of how some people have achieved longterm sobriety (using AA and other programs).

Alcohol: How to Give It Up and Be Glad You Did,
by Philip Tate, Ph.D., is a good book on applying REBT principles (by Ellis, above) to alcohol abuse. I found it very useful.

When you say, "Each day I start anew, enough, no more only to stumble at the first hurdle..."
what is the first hurdle?

Don S

[Andy F]

Originally Posted by icecream pete

Hi,
I was gonna have a whine about stuff, AA not working, bad choice of sponsor etc etc etc, but the truth is I cant seem to stop drinking. It is so engrained in what I am and what I do, no matter how I rationalise it or look at the sheer stupidity of it, I just go and do it again and again and again.

Each day I start anew, enough, no more only to stumble at the first hurdle. I want to be normal, but clearly not enough. I am like two people, me and the boozer and the boozer always wins no matter how I try.

I am so tired of this constant battle, one sided tho it is.

I know that I cant win, I just want to stop drinking, for good.but wanting it is not enough it seems.

I really could use some help

Pete

Hi Pete

Thanks for your share. I appreciated it. I felt tired after reading it because it reminded me of how hopeless I felt at the end of my drinking. I thought it was admirable that whilst expressing some disatisfaction with AA you also claimed responsibilty for the act of drinking. There is no reason why both views can't both be valid.

There is a variety of support out there, and as nice as people are to me, it begins or ends with My arm picking up or not picking up the first drink. And it will be down to me to explore the options.

There's plenty of views, opinions around (inc. mine), but none of the people holding them can do it for you. If you make it, in my view, it will have been as a result of your own efforts. Within this, I also mean the effort involved in seeking help.

I thought your post was honest.

regards

Andy F

[JaySee]

Hi Pete

I can remember pacing the room for hours..... I mean hours fighting the battle in my head. I just wanted to drink so badly but I knew I shouldn't. The doctor said I shouldn't, my friends, my family said I shouldn't, even I said time and time again for years and years that I shouldn't. But I always did.

That constant defeat by the booze ground me further and further down. My self esteem and self belief had disappeared. I thought I was an idiot, a fool, useless .... why can't I stop when I really want to stop.?? I thought I could reason my way sober.

Well now I know different. I use AA and it's working for me in a way I never thought possible. It didn't at first. But I kept going back and now things are changing. I no longer pace the room and to tell you the truth, and I never would have believed this at first, today, and for a fair few days now, I don't want a drink. I've no idea what tomorrow will bring, but today I'm OK.

Give it another go Pete. Accepting that I couldn't do this on my own and letting other people and other ideas into my life was the start for me. Keep going back mate, it really does "Work if you work it".

much love
JC

[Don S]

"The basic ingredients for successful treatment are
1) identifying a problem with the agreement of the addict,
2) believing change is possible,
3) placing primary responsibility on the addict for carrying out the change,
4) accepting reductions in use as well as abstinence, and
5) following up to let addicts know someone cares and wants to make sure they stay on course."
--Stanton Peele

The only thing I'd say about his point #4 is that I believe reducing consumption is best done as a means to an end--a clear goal of abstinence within a few days.

But you see how much of the process involves making choices and taking responsibility for your own actions? You agree there's a problem, you come to the belief that change is possible, you take action. So to my way of thinking, the most successful approach will be any which encourages your confidence in your self.

As for #5 -- we care, and we want to make sure you stay on course.

Don S

[icecream pete]

forgive me if I ramble:

I guess part of my problem is that I like things to be instant. I expected to just quit and move on ( as I did with tobacco). I met a guy at the last meeting I went to who has not had a drink for 30 years, but he still goes to meetings. I know that you enlightened guys will say " you see, it works", but it scared me to death that I will never be "free" and that alcohol will always be a part of my life even if I stop.

I have not made an attempt to work the programme and I do have a difficulty with my sponsor.

I understand that its my problem and nobody else can make it happen but me. When I went to AA I did not drink so there is a start, as for my HP, I am going to have to relax and let that evolve I think. I like to be in control ( or think I am) so letting go is not easy but we will see.

I know that I have to commit to sobriety and that must involve changes in my life, continuing to drink is not an acceptable option. So I will go back to AA on Monday and try to move forward.

Thanks for the support and butt kicking.

Pete

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Pete,

Sure Is Good To See You Back Again We Do This 1 Day At A Time. I Don't Think About The Future Much. I Might Get Hit By A Car Today. Y Worry Bout The Future Just Don't Pick Up A Drink Today. U Believe In A Higher Power? Start The Day Off In Prayer. It's Been Working Well For Me


Stay In Touch Ok

Chris

[BubbaBob]

...THAT is the attitude of someone who has a chance of puttin' this thing in remission (NOT cured) and living to maybe die of old age.

On the sponsor thing...you don't have to LIKE your sponsor. As a matter of fact I consider your sponsor being a "friend" to be a bad thing. It's kinda like kids...they need parents, not friends. We need sponsors, not friends. A sponsor, to me, should be someone who will call you on your **** and not let you get away with crap...if you like him/her that's just a bonus.

Hang in there guy. YOU can't, but you and your HP can work miracles.

BubbaBob

[Don S]

Originally Posted by icecream pete

forgive me if I ramble:

I guess part of my problem is that I like things to be instant. I expected to just quit and move on ( as I did with tobacco). I met a guy at the last meeting I went to who has not had a drink for 30 years, but he still goes to meetings. I know that you enlightened guys will say " you see, it works", but it scared me to death that I will never be "free" and that alcohol will always be a part of my life even if I stop.

Many people do 'quit and move on'. It isn't necessary to go to meetings for your entire life. The view that alcohol abuse is a disease that is in remission and is never cured is not shared by most recovery programs or by many researchers or treatment professionals.

If you get past the daily urge to drink and get to a point where it is more of a memory than an immediate desire, you may find (as many do) that you can move on with your life. You do want to sustain your sobriety somehow--by checking forums, going to meetings if you find them helpful, or just spending time doing the new things that you've found to replace your old drinking behavior with.

Alcohol will always be there. But it won't be a part of your life if you choose to make it otherwise. Quitting drinking isn't a miracle. It's just a change in behavior, which we can accomplish our selves by changing our beliefs. It doesn't hurt to have friends to help along the way.
Don S

[BubbaBob]

...it IS viewed by most professionals in the mental health field to be a "chronic, progressive, fatal disease"...but we'll never agree on just who is the "professional" that should be listened to, so I don't have a clue as to why I typed this...

BubbaBob

[Don S]

What I said was it s
"not shared by most recovery programs or by many researchers or treatment professionals. "
It is true that over 90% of treatment programs in the US are 12-step based. They are also remarkable ineffective. For more info, see Stanton Peele's web site.

By recovery programs I was referring to, e.g., AA, SMART, RR, SOS, LifeRing, WFS, etc. -- the organizations. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
Don

[KelKel]

Pete
Thanks for this thread...
Just got to read @ 10 minutes of solid recovery.
needed it.
I have so been where you are, like so many times.
The bottom line for me was that I could not do it alone, the best medicine for what was ailing me was the support of other people who have walked in the same desolate places I have... it helps us stay out of the muck...
In addiction the muck becomes quicksand in no time at all.
My best chance at staying sober is to incorporate 12-step programs in to my recovery... I need the road map... learning to live sober has not been easy, alcoholism was such a interwoven part of my life's fabric.
I simply do not have the energy to fight with my addiction anymore.. I hope I never again feel the compulsion to rise up against it. It win's... but in giving up the fight, I win too..
New Mantra:
Alcohol is not an option.

then we stop entertaining the fleeting thoughts that taunt us to drink again...
"like the one's that notice the bottle of Glen Livet and start to salivate."

Don's post on resisting urges is really good... read it again.

Please hang in there my friend... you are not alone.

I pray that you find the willingness to get sober...

Have you read "Cool, Hip & Sober" ? Good book...

[/OLOR]

[BubbaBob]

Don, you've directed me to that site before. I believe it is the one that has as it's most prominant feature notification that he is a lawyer willing to help you sue someone that didn't help you get sober. If that is the site, I consider advise from him to be like trying to find God through Jimmy Swaggert.

If it's someone else, let me know and I'll check it out.

BubbaBob

[Don S]

That is the same site, and once again you are dismissing a man who has spent his entire career in the field of addiction research and treatment.
Something about 'contempt prior to investigation' comes to mind.
Don S

[grkda]

Originally Posted by Don S

Hi, Pete,

Sorry you're feeling so bad about yourself right now. Quitting drinking isn't a matter of wanting to. It's a matter of changing your beliefs and your actions. Sometimes we have to change the actions first -- by not buying the stuff, for example -- even when we really don't want the discomfort of sobriety. Remove the opportunity and make it inconvenient to drink.

When you're planning to quit one of the most important things is dealing with urges. Here's something from a web site I really like, by Dr. Robert Sarmiento:

"Here are some specific methods to try [for resisting urges]:

Just accepting the urge can help. It's okay to have urges - everybody does.
It's what you do with the urge that counts.

Ignore the urge. Keep it at a distance, like a thought going in one ear and
out the other.

Detach yourself from the urge. Think of the urge as "it" and study it. What
does it feel like?

Rate the urge. How strong is it on a one to ten scale? Are you
exaggerating? Compare the discomfort of resisting the urge to other
possible discomforts, like being boiled alive in oil or having your
fingernails pulled out one at a time. [...or skipping food all day, or running a marathon, or....]

Distract yourself. Do something. Go out. Call someone. Get absorbed in a
task. Exercise. Remind yourself of the benefits of resisting and the long
term costs of giving in.

Remember a "moment of clarity" when you realized your habit is a problem.

Try relaxing yourself by imagining a peaceful scene.

Visualize yourself in the near future feeling good about having resisted
the urge. Paint a mental picture of how badly you will feel if you give in,
like a scene with you hugging the toilet bowl with the title, "Drinking is
Fun".

Personify the urge by calling it the inner brat, the alcohol salesman in
your head, the "beast"....

Remind yourself that the urge will pass. Think about other urges you have that you routinely resist. How do you do that?

Develop coping statements, thoughts that counter urge causing ideas. For example, if you are thinking, "I deserve a drink try telling yourself, "Even though it is unfair that I have this problem, drinking is not a wise choice for me."

After you begin to develop some mastery of your urges, you may want to
confront them rather than just waiting until they happen. There are many
ways to do this, for example: Try visualizing a situation in the past where
you had a strong urge, like running a videotape in your head. At first,
allow yourself to feel the urge and react as you did. They run the tape
again and without changing anything, force yourself to see yourself
resisting the urge. Practice this repeatedly until you get a feel for how
you can do it. This is like "instant replay". Mentally "rehearse" a
situation that might happen in the future doing the same "switching" of
your feelings and reactions.

Try to make yourself have an urge, as for example in thinking about your
"drug of choice". This will probably be less intense and more "controlled",
so it will give you a chance to practice, like practicing all week before
the big game on the weekend.

Practice, Practice, Practice"

*Copyright © 1995, Robert F. Sarmiento, Ph.D., All Rights Reserved
http://www.cyberpsych.com/


Don S

Now THAT is what I came here for. Resisting the urge is where I fail. I wish I had read this yesterday, but thanks.

[BubbaBob]

Since Mr Peele's legal background is allegedly intended to help those who have been mistreated in dealing with their addictions...

and since you have stated that 12 step programs show poor effacacy in the treatment of addictions...

and since we all want to help our fellow addicts/alcoholics get better and not be ripped off and abused by programs that either don't work, or work poorly, might I suggest that you email Mr Peele and have him set his legal sights on a treatment center called The Ridgeview Institute in Smyrna, GA.

This program, based on the 12 steps, states the following:

3% of all addicts/alcoholics will survive despite their addiction.
20% of all addicts/alcoholics getting treatment of some kind will survive their addiction.
40% of all addicts/alcoholics getting treatment at Ridgeview will survive their addiction.
96% of all addicts/alcoholics getting treatment at Ridgeview and becoming active in their alumni association (basic follow up care, going to meetings, working the steps, etc) will survive their addiction.

Does Mr Peele have this kind of recovery (survival) rate?

Since Mr Peele is so interested in suing those giving false hope, why has he not shut down places like Ridgeview?

Why do insurance companies waste their money on places like Ridgeview? It would be much cheaper and more effective to follow Mr Peele's program, would it not?

Why do professional boards (lawyers, doctors, nurses) send folks to the Ridgeviews of the world, rather than Mr Peele? Do they actually WANT their folks to stay drunk and unemployable so they cannot pay bar membership dues and such?

BubbaBob

[Chy]

Hi Pete,
Glad you checked in, time to take action, commit to the process, and if you want it bad enough, it will happen, fake it, as they say. Hey Go say hi to newcomer grk he's in your shoes, maybe you can help him out along with Patrick aka (Homer).

I see 3 clones here who can help each other.

[Don S]

The natural remission rate for alcohol abuse is far higher than 3%. That is, a much higher percentage of alcohol abusers quit or significantly reduce their drinking on their own than just 3%. So that statistic is absurd.

12-step programs are among the less effective treatment programs. I can provide you with any number of research studies on that subject. But you can also read them on Peele's web site.

It's hard to evaluate Ridgeway's 40% figure without knowing exactly what they mean by 'survive their addiction'. That would be a very high rate for longterm sobriety via a 12-step program. But most private facilities that make those claims don't provide their statistics openly for evaluation by researchers.

No program whatsoever anywhere in the world has ever had a 96% success rate, if they mean longterm abstinence or reduced drinking. That is patently ridiculous. But again, nobody knows what they mean by 'survive their addiction'.

As you would know if you perused his web site, Stanton Peele does not run recovery programs. He is a researcher and writer in the field of addiction, and has consulted with many programs and research facilities. His c.v. is on his web site. As I've told you before, he became a lawyer late in his career. He and others are working hard to get insurance companies, doctors, and courts to consider other options than 12-step.

Coerced 12-step attendance, in particular, can be harmful to individuals and is certainly not useful to others attending the programs voluntarily. Plus, it's unconstitutional. But it still happens, and there are abuses in 12-step programs. Being a longtime critic of them, he gets a lot of communication from people who have been subjected to them involuntarily. So he decided to do something about it.

Don S

[icecream pete]

Thanks for the feedback, I dont know if I am going to make it or not, Ive got the tools and I know where to go, its down to me I guess, nothing else really matters much.

If I knew where I was going to end up I would have started from somewhere different.

Pete