The 12 Steps
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,095
The 12 Steps
Can a person recover completely and be a contributing member of AA without following the 12 steps exactly by the book?
I will admit that I am going through the steps in a half-assed manner. I sorta had a sponsor but I haven't talk to him for awhile and now I am talking to a "temporary online sponsor".
I don't know if I can confess all of the stuff I should to another person in Step Five and some of the people I should make amends to might not understand - especially my parents who are near 80 years old. I don't want to worry them with my alcoholism.
I get a lot out of the AA meetings that I attend - I am going 6 to 7 times a week and I always participate in discussions. I also plan to volunteer at the Cleveland, Ohio AA headquarters. I have met many good people that have helped me.
I know many people here don't do AA, but to the people that do, can a person be a productive part of AA even though they don't follow the Big Book and 12 steps to a tee?
I will admit that I am going through the steps in a half-assed manner. I sorta had a sponsor but I haven't talk to him for awhile and now I am talking to a "temporary online sponsor".
I don't know if I can confess all of the stuff I should to another person in Step Five and some of the people I should make amends to might not understand - especially my parents who are near 80 years old. I don't want to worry them with my alcoholism.
I get a lot out of the AA meetings that I attend - I am going 6 to 7 times a week and I always participate in discussions. I also plan to volunteer at the Cleveland, Ohio AA headquarters. I have met many good people that have helped me.
I know many people here don't do AA, but to the people that do, can a person be a productive part of AA even though they don't follow the Big Book and 12 steps to a tee?
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: US
Posts: 5,095
I don't know.
I know that I have tried to work 'my' program and that generally hasn't worked for me. It's pretty simple to get a sponsor and just follow the program as its outlined. I mean, why not? My thinking hasn't done me much good with respect to recovery so using someone else's might be more successful.
Have you been reading the big book? Basically it says you can take your 5th step with anyone you want.....a counselor, priest, sponsor, whatever. And if doing an amends would hurt someone more than help (and that includes you) then you do your amends with your hp and then live your amends.....ie don't keep doing the same things over and over.
Doug you're doing so well. If you like the AA program I suggest working the program. The problem when I work my program (carefully designed to keep me from changing because that would involve taking a hard look at the yucky stuff) I usually drink.
Follow the steps in order with a sponsor. Dont think about steps 4-9 until you're actually doing the step. And pray for guidance.
I know that I have tried to work 'my' program and that generally hasn't worked for me. It's pretty simple to get a sponsor and just follow the program as its outlined. I mean, why not? My thinking hasn't done me much good with respect to recovery so using someone else's might be more successful.
Have you been reading the big book? Basically it says you can take your 5th step with anyone you want.....a counselor, priest, sponsor, whatever. And if doing an amends would hurt someone more than help (and that includes you) then you do your amends with your hp and then live your amends.....ie don't keep doing the same things over and over.
Doug you're doing so well. If you like the AA program I suggest working the program. The problem when I work my program (carefully designed to keep me from changing because that would involve taking a hard look at the yucky stuff) I usually drink.
Follow the steps in order with a sponsor. Dont think about steps 4-9 until you're actually doing the step. And pray for guidance.
G-Woman
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mississauga, ON
Posts: 979
What do I constantly hear from my fellow AA members....progress not perfection?
I've heard many stories of people working their steps more than once, because they feel like they didn't quite get it right the first time. And that's fine.
It's not an exam or project on which you'll be graded. But at the same time, if you already feel you're not doing it 'right', you probably won't be satisfied with the results.
I've been in & out of AA for over a decade, and for me I found I didn't really get what I needed from AA until I put in an earnest attempt at working the steps. It's not perfect, but I'm not perfect and that's OK. But I know I'm doing it the best I can do RIGHT NOW, and I'm already finding it a much more rewarding experience.
I've heard many stories of people working their steps more than once, because they feel like they didn't quite get it right the first time. And that's fine.
It's not an exam or project on which you'll be graded. But at the same time, if you already feel you're not doing it 'right', you probably won't be satisfied with the results.
I've been in & out of AA for over a decade, and for me I found I didn't really get what I needed from AA until I put in an earnest attempt at working the steps. It's not perfect, but I'm not perfect and that's OK. But I know I'm doing it the best I can do RIGHT NOW, and I'm already finding it a much more rewarding experience.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,960
"Half-measures avail us nothing"
When we work with a sponsor, everything becomes much more clear.....no need to harm anyone anymore, so a direct amends may or may not be possible; there are alternatives to a direct amend......
When we work with a sponsor, everything becomes much more clear.....no need to harm anyone anymore, so a direct amends may or may not be possible; there are alternatives to a direct amend......
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,981
As the AA motto goes "take what you need and leave the rest" some are die-hards that fell you need to follow the steps to a T to be successful, while others don't follow them at all.
Do what works best for you and keep going with it.
Do what works best for you and keep going with it.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
well, i think you cannot be recovered as AA defines it if you haven't done the stuff.
but of course you can have lifelongabstinence without doing anything other than not drink.
So much, if not all,in your question depends on what YOU mean by "recover completely".
and yes, of course you can be a contributing member by doing service. doing the step stuff is not a requirement for participating, contributing or anything at all in AA except being a sponsor.
that being said, i'd encourage you to do it whole-heartedly if you're going to do it. knowingly doing it half-assed is more than useless. keeps you in a mostly negative place without real relief.
working through fears and doing things anyway and getting discernment about amends are a great part of the good stuff that's offered and available from doing the work thoroughly.
but of course you can have lifelongabstinence without doing anything other than not drink.
So much, if not all,in your question depends on what YOU mean by "recover completely".
and yes, of course you can be a contributing member by doing service. doing the step stuff is not a requirement for participating, contributing or anything at all in AA except being a sponsor.
that being said, i'd encourage you to do it whole-heartedly if you're going to do it. knowingly doing it half-assed is more than useless. keeps you in a mostly negative place without real relief.
working through fears and doing things anyway and getting discernment about amends are a great part of the good stuff that's offered and available from doing the work thoroughly.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.
thoroughly have we seen a person fail who has rarely followed our path.
a 4-5 month premeditated drunk I went on was the result of rarely following the path of the program. half measures took me to within 10 minutes of getting drunk.
theres a very simple reason I was able to do the 5th step:
I did the first 4 steps.
in order.
making amends:
......except when to do so would injure them or others.
thoroughly have we seen a person fail who has rarely followed our path.
a 4-5 month premeditated drunk I went on was the result of rarely following the path of the program. half measures took me to within 10 minutes of getting drunk.
theres a very simple reason I was able to do the 5th step:
I did the first 4 steps.
in order.
making amends:
......except when to do so would injure them or others.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Tn
Posts: 3,043
I would keep going to AA and try to be willing to do what the program entails.
I certainly had no enthusiasm to pursue AA when I first got sober.
It was my last resort, though, so I did it.
And then I wanted to keep doing it.
I suggest that you also keep an open mind toward AA.
It has helped countless drunks, including me.
Glad you're here.
I certainly had no enthusiasm to pursue AA when I first got sober.
It was my last resort, though, so I did it.
And then I wanted to keep doing it.
I suggest that you also keep an open mind toward AA.
It has helped countless drunks, including me.
Glad you're here.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Doug39 
Can a person recover completely and be a contributing member of AA without following the 12 steps exactly by the book?
Fini already covered most of the points that I would have thought of, but I'll just note that it is also perfectly possible to do all the Steps without attending one single meeting. It was once common to do just that before your first meeting.
These days, there are people who just don't drink and go to meetings, but fini is correct in her assessment that it wouldn't be considered recovery from alcoholism as AA defines it -- an internal spiritual malady requiring a vital spiritual experience to resolve.
There is another interesting thing, though, in that the vital spiritual experience need not come as a result of the 12-Steps per se. The story of Rowland Hazard in the AA Book is one such example of this. Rowland recovered from alcoholism as AA defines it, but he was never actually an AA member.
This topic is not new, though, and people have been debating this for a long time, now, with advocates on both sides. See, for example, the following article, originally published in 1976.
Gresham's Law and Alcoholics Anonymous
I tend to think that the answer to your question is yes, due to the third tradition, and due to the fact that you can recover from alcoholism, even as AA defines it, without use of the 12 Steps.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
"No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is we are willing to grow along spiritual lines."
I have known plenty of people who stay sober on meetings alone by going to six to seven meetings a week. Some of them last a very long time before they tire. Life isn't that great, there are daily ups and downs, the best you are going to feel is at the end of the meeting, and that will sustain you until the next fix, though things tend to go down hill between times. At home of course is an "an AA widow" who is not usually impressed as she is having to live with the instability of untreated alcoholism.
Doing the sort of thing I do, travelling and living in parts of the world where AA is thin on the ground would not be possible when a person cannot go two or three days without a meeting before their world falls apart, so there is not a lot of freedom in it. Hiding from alcohol, in fact hiding from the world is not a life style I would find attractive.
Living with secrets, waiting for that tap on the shoulder as some past incident catches up, too much tension and stress. Feeling different to my fellows in AA because the secrets I have fill me with shame, and make me lonely in a room full of friends. Feeling a fraud because I never really joined the program of action.
Sharing that I have not found it necessary to do the steps, how is that going to sit with anyone I try to help? Will I be a producer of harmony or confusion?
Then, back in the book it gets down to some real simple stuff. In the fifth step directions at the start of chapter six it offers the best reason for taking this step. We are liable to drink if we don't. Much the same with the ninth. I knew that would be the case with me.
Something seems to happen when we take it slowly with the steps. We start at a desperate point but life begins to get better. The pressure comes off, we lose that desperation. Steps like five look more and more challenging, the more comfortable we get. Why suffer the pain of going through it if we can avoid it? And it begins to look like we can avoid it. And maybe we can. The only way we find out otherwise is if a drink appears in our hands.
So yes we can recover by doing the steps less than perfectly, otherwise no one would recover. But there is another level of AA that not so many reach. We all get to experience the spirit of the fellowship, but not all join the fellowship of the spirit.
I have known plenty of people who stay sober on meetings alone by going to six to seven meetings a week. Some of them last a very long time before they tire. Life isn't that great, there are daily ups and downs, the best you are going to feel is at the end of the meeting, and that will sustain you until the next fix, though things tend to go down hill between times. At home of course is an "an AA widow" who is not usually impressed as she is having to live with the instability of untreated alcoholism.
Doing the sort of thing I do, travelling and living in parts of the world where AA is thin on the ground would not be possible when a person cannot go two or three days without a meeting before their world falls apart, so there is not a lot of freedom in it. Hiding from alcohol, in fact hiding from the world is not a life style I would find attractive.
Living with secrets, waiting for that tap on the shoulder as some past incident catches up, too much tension and stress. Feeling different to my fellows in AA because the secrets I have fill me with shame, and make me lonely in a room full of friends. Feeling a fraud because I never really joined the program of action.
Sharing that I have not found it necessary to do the steps, how is that going to sit with anyone I try to help? Will I be a producer of harmony or confusion?
Then, back in the book it gets down to some real simple stuff. In the fifth step directions at the start of chapter six it offers the best reason for taking this step. We are liable to drink if we don't. Much the same with the ninth. I knew that would be the case with me.
Something seems to happen when we take it slowly with the steps. We start at a desperate point but life begins to get better. The pressure comes off, we lose that desperation. Steps like five look more and more challenging, the more comfortable we get. Why suffer the pain of going through it if we can avoid it? And it begins to look like we can avoid it. And maybe we can. The only way we find out otherwise is if a drink appears in our hands.
So yes we can recover by doing the steps less than perfectly, otherwise no one would recover. But there is another level of AA that not so many reach. We all get to experience the spirit of the fellowship, but not all join the fellowship of the spirit.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Sonoran Desert & Southeast Asia
Posts: 6,561
In my experience, true recovery is difficult without working the steps thoroughly, sobriety is easy. I've seen many sober, irritable, discontented folks.. and am still there myself in some ways. I need to finish my Step 9 and have had difficulties with following guidance from my sponsors. The guys I've seen that do the best just follow directions, lol..
Grateful
Join Date: May 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 1,763
Originally Posted by Gottalife
Something seems to happen when we take it slowly with the steps. We start at a desperate point but life begins to get better. The pressure comes off, we lose that desperation. Steps like five look more and more challenging, the more comfortable we get. Why suffer the pain of going through it if we can avoid it? And it begins to look like we can avoid it. And maybe we can. The only way we find out otherwise is if a drink appears in our hands.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,781
Sugarbear, Tomsteve and Mike all mentioned different parts of how it works. Here's what comes to mind for me. I worked the program half measured and I relapsed in a bad way...the BB says,
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol - cunning,
59
baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
One of your concerns about step 5 I agree with. I did mine with my pastor, he's known me all my life. Wishing you the best
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol - cunning,
59
baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
One of your concerns about step 5 I agree with. I did mine with my pastor, he's known me all my life. Wishing you the best
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Gottalife
I have known plenty of people who stay sober on meetings alone by going to six to seven meetings a week... Some of them last a very long time before they tire... At home of course is an "an AA widow" who is not usually impressed...
Hiding from alcohol, in fact hiding from the world is not a life style I would find attractive...
Hiding from alcohol, in fact hiding from the world is not a life style I would find attractive...
Regarding your analysis of working slowly through the steps, I would imagine that in Cleveland, OH, of all places, there must be beginners meetings where Doug could learn how to do all the Steps efficiently, without wasting much time.
If you're going to do the Steps, it's probably best to do them efficiently, to see if those promises materialize or not. Why waste time wondering if it really works?
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