GnikNus

You said: "I have always disagreed with the "artists are narcissists" for pursuing their work. Is the scientist a narcissist? The software engineer? The plumber who passionately believes what they do is important?

I think narcissists are more the CEO's and such of the world."

You're saying that artists are immune to the kind of self focus an narcissism that other groups of people are. I disagree with that black and white thinking. That's painting with an over generalizing and broad brush. Instead of saying "free ride," let's say "free pass"- you're giving artists- according to the statement above- a "free pass" and not allowing them certain negative attributes- and attributing those attributes to only a certain type or group of person. My argument is that this is too black and white. People from all walks of life are subject to this character flaw. Even- and I would say for the most part- especially artists.

GnikNus

[QUOTE="Hawkeye13;6227530"]I used to be a full-time poet, studied it, lived it, etc. but found what sleepie said to be true as well. People thought I was being "self-indulgent" to take time and space necessary to be good at what I did. It wasn't a "real job" so that somehow made what I did "all about me". Instead, in hindsight, I think the real truth is that the world itself is "all about money" and "all about status" and "all about personal beauty". I found the judgement and scorn in part envy of not choosing to be compliant and "ordinary" enough to fit in, and part genuine puzzlement about why anyone would think writing poems was a legitimate contribution to society. Artists are non-supported and disrespected greatly, with few exceptions, and I'm sure that doesn't help the urge to drink for many. You cannot unsee what you've learned to see, and it can be very painful to live in a world that has little use for Beauty, and generally poor judgement about what it is. Anyway, my two ex-artistic (s)cent(se)s[/



Deciding to be an artist and pursuing that is incredibly hard and lonely. Difficult in a way most people don't understand. There's a lot of romanticism about being an artist, but the reality is that to do it and do it right is very hard. You face many of the things you listed above, and then some. It's not easy and it takes a lot from you. You give up comfort, in many cases support, and forgo many of the things in life that other people in life enjoy. All for the art.

GnikNus

Sorry Hawkeye, my response was contained in the quote. I'll post it again:

Deciding to be an artist and pursuing that is incredibly hard and lonely. Difficult in a way most people don't understand. There's a lot of romanticism about being an artist, but the reality is that to do it and do it right is very hard. You face many of the things you listed above, and then some. It's not easy and it takes a lot from you. You give up comfort, in many cases support, and forgo many of the things in life that other people in life enjoy. All for the art.

ScottFromWI

Folks - let's please keep this to an "interesting discussion" rather than a personal argument, OK? Lots of good points/opinions have been brought up, let's stick with that train of discussion.

BullDog777

I've been a professional painter and illustrator for more than 20 years.
my experience, if i may. the hard-"everything is hard before it is easy" -Goethe
the lonely- This may have been true years ago, however, i don't see it as such anymore. With art message boards, vlogs, youtube and virtually limitless ways to communicate with people around the globe we are only as lonely as we choose to be. much like this place.
the difficult-I've seen people of all ages start to market themselves, brilliantly i might add and make hundreds of thousands of dollars within a few years. The world we live in outside the corporate inside cyberspace is vastly what we make it. you have to find a niche' and a way to get it to the masses. it's really that simple. -that's just the beginning though. i can rattle off 2 dozen millionaires from youtube alone. and hundreds who come in a sea of a very wealthy inbetween.
the romanticism-this is by FAR where most people fail. they live in the daydream and then expect to be discovered with little effort. "faith without works is dead"
another...."everyone wants to be famous...few ever put in the work"

SoberCAH

I really feel a connection with artists who get and stay sober (e.g. Clapton, Elton John).

I feel a different connection, one which includes a good bit of sadness, with respect to really talented artists who never get and stay sober (or clean and sober).

But I feel a connection to both types.

The same way I feel a connectivity to both practicing and recovering alcoholics and addicts.

sleepie

I never said anyone was immune to anything. I pointed to a study I found to be interesting. I also, again, never said anyone has a "free pass" on anything. But, it has been studied, and some careers do have more psychopathic traits than others. Which almost as a rule goes hand in hand with narcissism... Creative artists were at the opposite end of those things according to this study... Maybe take it up with Kevin Dutton?

True, artists are often lambasted for taking their work seriously. Other careers, not much. Artists do often suffer this double standard, of being accused of "narcissism", yet their work is enjoyed by many. They give themselves away. And also spend plenty money in the study, practice and learning of what they do as in any other career- yet they don't often get to enjoy a career and are reduced to practicing in their spare time because our society has so little regard for art.

leighbond

I can say as an artist that alcohol single-handedly destroyed any urge I had to create. Before I started drinking seriously I was running a fairly successful art studio, and I would have co workers and artist friends who could drink (within reason) and I used that knowledge and romanticized that and was like, if they can do it I can do it. I want to be that, have a drink on the rocks then go work on a concept render. BUT Jesus I was wrong, to be fair I didn't realize I didn't have control back then I was still in denial. But before I quit for real this time and admitted I had a problem, all my creativity was gone. Since I quit it's slowly been coming back as a legitimate outlet like I forgot how much I loved it. Before I was just, caring about the next drink and trying to milk off hangovers so I could go to work, there is no time for art in a lifestyle like that in my case anyways. It is an interesting topic though. Maybe it's not that artists are more prone to be alcoholics, maybe they are just more prone to be in the public eye, especially successful ones. So we are just more aware of their problems.

sleepie

Personally as one who has practiced in all their spare time around many full time jobs and while working two jobs at times- I absolutely spent my time alone and practicing. Forsaking all the "normal" leisure activities most people engage in to see to my own work and the many hours of just plain practice it takes to get anywhere... if dedication, discipline and determination are seen as narcissism, that just sounds like a very limited and mistaken interpretation of things. I have to think again that it's some kind of projection. It would be just as erroneous of me to presume anyone not engaging in creative acts that qualify as art are living soulless, boring lives devoid of passion or meaning.

I have heard both things from both worlds of people.

Anyway.... back to the drawing board.

gaffo

To the original question:Hunter S. Thompson

Random thoughts on this fascinating conversation from a professional artist:

I really learned how to drink like an alcoholic in art school. I used to give a ride to school every day to a guy who would buy two beers and a hot dog at the gas station on the way to coffee. It appalled me but by the time I quit school I was drinking malt liquor whenever I could and a lot of times when I shouldn't.

I remember writing with a quart of beer at my side from the time I was 17. I guess it helped, at least I thought it did but even then I knew that there was a line that could not be crossed if I wanted to get anything done.

I have had many side jobs in my life--plumber, house painter, restaurant work, museums, whatever it took to pay the rent on the studio. For the past twenty something years I have been printing tee shirts to pay the mortgage and put food on my family's table. Today I am printing for the high school wrestling team. It sometimes feels like I'm whoring out my craft but then I remember all the "serigraphers" from art school who have gone on to non art related fields. At least I still have ink under my nails.

sleepie

I have never been in an art related field... and I still have ink under my nails.

Always held down my own, two jobs sometimes- paid off a student loan, paid my own rent. No family, no spouse no partner until very recently.

Basically did my entire life on my own, as a female who had to cut off an abusive family. Maybe I didn't do it perfectly but I did do it on my own, and continued art making. I was that person sketching on the train on her way to work every day.

Upside is my work is all my own, whatever I choose. Used to take commissions. Would never do it again.

August252015

I like learning the stories of all kinds of folks and have always preferred success and heroic figures more than tragedy and troubled souls.

As far as my own creativity....my writing was good at the beginning of my drinking (always one of my talents through school and degrees)....til it wasn't and my creativity was shot. My latest blog is the best work I have done, bar none. I launched it the day I turned six months sober and the work has kept coming. It means a lot to me to have a better and deeper talent and voice, and a message consistent with my life of recovery, which is very much one of pink clouds.

BrendaChenowyth

You should never, ever have to clarify the fact that you did not say something here.

I have been a writer at heart, since I could hold a pencil correctly. I spent a decade not using my gift. It's no coincidence that in sobriety, all I want to do is write!

Dee74

*nerd alert*

I think he left drinking behind relatively early but he was still on drugs when he left for Berlin and did the Low trilogy...He seems to have cleaned up then by most accounts, bar the cigarettes...

That period, from late seventies on, encompasses one of my favourite albums Scary Monsters and the run of maybe less challenging but more commercial albums that really made him a megastar...and then (IMO) he found a creative edge again in the 90s.

so yes definitely life, and talent, after addiction.

D

KAD

I can't go without mentioning one of the most influential bands in my lifetime who, with the exception of an original founder, had no well known issues with drugs or alcohol beyond casual experimentation. I'm referring to none other than Pink Floyd. David Gilmour in particular is still going strong and creating great music.

steve-in-kville

I have noticed a sharp increase in my creativity since being sober. Especially when it comes to building our flower/veggie garden and landscaping.

I sorta scared myself!

Venecia

Narcissism is a lot like addiction; it crosses all kinds of socioeconomic boundaries.

Back to the original post. The "tormented brilliance of alcoholics" is a topic that arises from time to time here on SR. And, it seems, Hemingway and Fitzgerald are inevitably cited as examples.

Hemingway's body of work is one thing, but bear in mind he was the patriarch of three generations of addiction, suicide and mental illness. There have been some interesting interviews with his granddaughter, Mariel, who appears to be the only one who came out of that family half-way sane. No thanks to the Hemingways.

Fitzgerald? He's something of a hometown hero where I live. He died at 44, a drunk. If he and Zelda lived today, their daughter would have been taken away by child protective services. She had her own demons, as did her own children.

So yeah, Hemingway and Fitzgerald did create modern masterpieces of literature, but that's not their only legacy.

SnazzyDresser

If dressing well is an art, I'm like Picasso up in here! I'm pleased to share it with the world free of charge.

FBL

A nice little interview here with Joe Walsh, where he touches on his addictions:

Steely

When I first replied to this thread I was attempting to come from some half arsed Marxian perspective on what constitutes creativity, and what I see as a sometimes elitist exaltation of the artist.

Alienation from our labour denies us possession of our humanness, ergo our creativity, in whatever way we might express it.

I know the artist in the conventional sense is seen to languish long and hard over their work, beautiful work, but at the same time see the single mother languish long and hard over the creation of a budget that pans out for the week, and she can feed the kids.

All that I was trying to say is that I believe that to be human implies creativity, and that alienation from our labour denies us this humanness.

I just get a tiny bit irked when I see the "artist" placed upon some sort of pedestal, ivory tower, perhaps even a "different" sort of drunk, because of the anguish and soul searching required in the production of say, "The Scream" for example.

We are all screaming in one way or another. Some more conscious of it than others.

I suppose it's all in the definition, but do feel uncomfortable with the proposition that the "artist" is somehow separate from the rest of us "mere producers", and leads I think to an elitism that is unfounded. We're all in this alienating old boat together.

I know that I am in no way jealous of the artist, oh contrare, I admire and behold. Just as I admire and behold the creativity of the single mother. It's just gets a bit elitist for me, that's all.

My ideas are not well expressed due to mental exhaustion and the complexity of the topic. Just wanted to put my two bob's worth in, and pay homepage to creativity in all its forms.