Cow

... ... I total read that as "oh my that Panther QB has some ass," and I like, wow, well, who knew Sleepies was an ass fan.

Now hour later I read it again. Ha!

sleepie

lol that's true too, he is a good lookin' feller, leaping around like a gazelle...

Cow

Both my brother here for lunch today. Was okay, but we always has same distant conversations. Subject of celebrating my papa 80 birthday come up, and I like, okay, but I not gonna put lot of efforts into it. They like, he you father! Think of how much he give to you! And I sorry, but I can just no abide, so I say, "He not give anything to me! He TAKE ...A LOT... from me!"

...dead silence...

Neither of my brother can acknowledge what my papa do to me. Is not they fault, they not capable to "go there." So in keeping with recent efforts, I trying to relax attitude about it, but I still feels like I has to speak up, lest it be forgotten.

But, now I pondering when a thing should be forgotten. Previous feelings was, oh sure, it total easier for everybody if heinous things my papa do to me is just forgotten, but F you! ...but now I not so sure. I pondering. Who is only person it hurt to keep bring it up, to no to let it go? Answer: me.

I purposeful not bring word "forgiven" into this. Is part of my turning point when I figure out I can separates attitude from emotion. I not ever will forgives my papa, but I can maybe forget (let it go). I know that total backward from most everybody who say, "We must forgive but never forget!" No, that not work for anhedonic. For me, would be, forget about forgiving and just forget.

Dropsie

I totally agree you need to do what is best for you.

If you think that you are able to let it go and that bringing it up hurts more than it helps, then maybe this is for the best. But if you can really do it, you are a better person than me.

I have never had the horror of something like you did, but for me, I think I would need to have the facts acknowledged before I could truly let it go.

its small potatoes compared to what you endured, but my Ex is a sociopath psychologically abusive person, but my my eldest cannot accept what he is for her own reasons. It was all psychological, but he keeps up his abuse with her. Nothing she does will ever be good enough. But the poor thing keeps trying, and nothing will help her realise that if she does one thing, he will just want another. And I see the damage this does, but she won't let me help her.

But I try to let it go, cause I don't want him to be a bigger part of my mental pie, but if he would just admit what he did to me and stops with her, then I could really let it go. But so long as it remains on some level my problem, I don't think it is possible or even healthy for me to completely let it go.

My point is that if they get by with it, it never stops. But if we keep reliving it it never stops either. And since they are never going to change, maybe we should both do our very best to just let it go.

Dropsie

PS sorry about the game, but at least the Pats lost.... should be a great super bowl.

Obladi

"Forgive" doesn't even come into the picture for me. This is something that cannot be forgiven. But to me, not forgiving is not equivalent to holding onto bitterness. After all of these years, I can acknowledge the deep cut while understanding that there is a scar over the wound and that may be the best it might ever be.

Cow, I think you displayed a tremendous amount of grace by saying your thing, keeping it to what you said and understanding that your brothers "can't go there." This sentence is way too small to convey the depth of how I feel about this - like, "grace" is a huge word for me. I hope you hear me. Sometimes the most important things to say are impossible to convey with words.

Perhaps your attitude can be one of a survivor. Not a hero (which you clearly are but don't accept and I get that), but just a cow who lived through some nasty **** and yet can often be content to simply chew her cud whilst watching the humming bird shenanigans.

walkbeformakrun

Cow - I once was in a similar situation. A wise person asked me, what benefit is there to holding onto it? Explained to me that these emotions do serve a useful, even vital, purpose. That is they protect us from further harm from the abuser.

If there is no chance your father will further abuse you, then perhaps the emotions surrounding the past abuse have served their purpose and you can let them go. To a point.

sleepie

I posted an article in the Cafe about survivors of child abuse. Something really leaped out at me. It was the fact that forgiving cannot and should not happen without the offending party acknowledging their part. That, I think, is the crucial element that is missing for some of us. I know my abusers feel justified to to this day and will never, ever acknowledge anything they did. So no, no forgiving from me.

I agree with Cow. Forget, maybe. Forgive? Never. There's a name for people who hurt others with no remorse. Drops knows what it is- sociopath. I feel bad for all of us who shared any part of our lives with such a human aberration.

Cow

There will never be "acknowledgement," Drops, so that out the window. Tried to get that, but other party has to be willing. And if they a sociopath, they unlikely to be willing! By time I was ready/able to confront my parents, mama had already pass and papa just say he not could recall and walk out of room. The End.

Obladi, thank you, I does appreciate you "grace" comment. I never think of it like that. It is total balance act to want "justice" and "validation" for you self, and do what might be most beneficial for all others involve, AND accept limitations of the situations so it not become never-ending unsettled matter that inhabit you --what I sometime call, "pebble in you shoe."

Which bring us to Walk. Yeah, my papa 80 and feeble. He not hurting anyone again, excepting maybe if he refuse to stop driving! I actual help him out quite a bit. Is acts of pity and charity, not love. And plus also, as I has discuss, I want to stays in the will. I not sure if I ready to let go of hurt and rage over his abuse. Yes I accept that it only compromising me. So why not let it go? Take that pebble out my shoe. I guess I always felt like that letting him get off of hook, let him get away with it. Like, "Oh you was Nazi war criminal but now you weak old man. TOO BAD, you still has to be punish for you crimes!" You know? But is never gonna happen.

I think I gonna has to sit with this. Would be BIG decision to let it go. I sure it would be relief, but I has to be ready. I mean, I just start my "new attitude" work. Can I adopt new attitude on something this big. ... ...

... and so soon after the Cardinals humiliation?

sleepie

Cow I have to wonder how are you sure this guy would keep you in the will? Even if they had any $ my sociopath mother would love nothing more than to continue the abuse my whole life, then not give me a penny. She would absolutely love that. How can you count on someone capable of what he did? It was No Contact for me. The only way.

Obladi

There was a documentary on Netflix about a woman who survived holocaust going back to forgive the Nazis - or maybe just one Nazi? She made it clear this was her path and the forgiveness was granted because she needed to do that for HERself. I get that. But I don't think I need to forgive or forget to set aside. Perhaps that's avoidance, but so what? Until/unless someone convinces me that it's detrimental to me, it's good enough.

Cow

I not get the whole "forgiveness culture," Obladi.

And just cuz I not "forgive" is not mean my heart is tiny lump of black coal. I think real "forgiveness" is emotional clearing exchange that require mutual engagement, not just somebody going, "I forgives you for raping me! FOR ME!" Yeah, no. But like you say, I CAN moves on, set aside, or let it go, FOR ME. That what I contemplating to do here. If I ready. Cuz I not want to "set aside" only to "pick back up." ...Jesus God, that was addict speak! Hmm...

sleepie

I think forgiving without the other people/person being sorry is condoning.

A former friend of mine commented once that maybe I should "Make amends" to my parents.

????

Yeah that guy ain't a friend anymore.

walkbeformakrun

I don't want to get lost in semantics but sometimes they are useful. For me, forgiveness is something given to someone who asked for it and not just asked for it but earned it some how. Maybe acceptance is the better term for letting go of harsh feelings without forgiveness.

If he is 80 though,,, a whole new set of options comes to mind. Options involving corning and confronting and some serious retributions.

Oh, sorry, did I say that out loud?

Cow

It can get semantical, Walk. But for somebody like me, who sort through things mostly intellectually, that helpful. For my particular anhedonia, "acceptance" is a given. It kind of equal "resignation." Cuz only alternative to acceptance/resignation is to kills you self.

But, you can has many different head space/attitude whiles you live out that acceptance/resignation. And I trying to find headspace that will make easier to cope, and, perhaps even make life more pleasant.

I not has vengeance feelings toward papa. So I would not get satisfactions, nor does I wish to see my papa suffer. And plus also, that would hurt brothers, so you see, that all get complicated again. Having say that, if I cries at his funeral, it will probable be for me and feelings of release, and feelings of not having a papa who love them, but no for him. ... ... I hope that change somehow, before he go, but, not bloody likely!

Hawkeye13

I think given the heavy weight this has been to you your whole life,
cutting the stinking rotten albatross off your neck of what he did
and just walking away in your mind would be a welcome relief.

Can't help you with the Cardinal's incompetence, however. . .

fini

but I can maybe forget (let it go).
maybe you can, maybe you can't.
but which one?
letting go (detaching, not hanging on) is very different from forgetting.

and i know you specifically mention not talking of forgiveness, but since i just happen to be reading "The Forgiveness Project", and happened to have participated in a thread about it recently, i'll just post a link to my post about it.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/5750472-post20.html
before reading the opening essay, i had never thought about/seen forgiving as a way to take power. refuse further victimhood.
nothing to do with "them".

very very complex issue.

good on you for looking, Cow.

Obladi

There you go, fini. That Eva Korn story is the one I was talking about. And that was her deal exactly. She was removing the power of Mengele in her life by forgiving him. Which is/was for her a very different action from condoning.

I can't seem to internalize that, but I found her perspective (or attitude, if you will) to be intriguing. Not sure that I could ever get on the same page. I think when we are wronged it is up to us to figure out how to let it go or perhaps let it be in the way that is most livable and least harmful to ourselves. Seems like it must by definition be a solution that each individual must arrive at as their own; what works for them.

courage2

I thought that forgiveness was something to receive. I really want to be forgiven. For some things. And if I don't forgive others, by what logic could I ever ever ever be forgiven myself?

It's like the milk of human kindness. Not really much point in keeping it stopped up inside. imo

Cow

Thank you all. I listening.

Bunny, may I just say, I was raped by my father, repeatedly, and he also purposeful terrorize me in other ways. He enjoy it. And all I ever desperately want was for him to love me. He ruin me, and I has been putting self back together for entire life since.

There I said it full out.

I not has any emotinal capacity for how to forgive this. I not know what that mean. I wish I did understand. I not think I will ever understand. If he had even so much as say he regret it, I think maybe, I could have open my heart.

Okay, foooooo. Breathe Cow, just breathe.