AA Meeting - Battle of the Old Timers
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AA Meeting - Battle of the Old Timers
Over the long Thanksgiving weekend I went to some AA meetings that were not on my regular schedule. One meeting really stood out. It was Saturday evening at my church. The meeting started out like most others, but after half time the room was short on people who wanted to share. I think it was because the opening speaker asked us to share about how we could do more to help AA in its mission (take a service position etc.) and for those of us who don’t have a service position (which was most of us I think) it wasn’t something we wanted to share about. So to keep things going, one of the meeting organizers at the front of the room asked an old timer in the back to share. Looking to the back of the room, I had seen “Bob” before at other meetings. In fact I had seen him at the front of the room leading a meeting at one time. Well “Bob” is quite the dedicated AA enthusiast. He started sharing about how much everyone should do for AA. I remember he said that the saying “meeting makers make it” was BS (he use the full word not the abbreviation) because it was not enough. After that I sort of tuned him out and simply thought well “Mr. Program” is talking and since I’m not getting a positive feeling listening to him I’m going to sort of tune him out a bit. I get where he’s coming from but it was not for me. I’m fine with that as I don’t expect everyone to have the same path to recovery. But my impression was that to “Bob” there was only one way to success and it included complete dedication to the AA program. So after “Bob” finished sharing we got something I never witnessed at a meeting. From the front of the room an older woman spoke next. She started by saying that she had 26 years of sobriety. She also said she didn’t share much because of what she was about to say. But I think old Bob had gotten her fired up and she then let loose that she had never had a sponsor, never completed all of the steps and here she was 26 years sober. Of course she did do something she was at a meeting after 26 years of sobriety. She did say that she prayed a lot. As she continued to share something else that I had never seen before happened. A guy in the back (another old timer I think) said “thanks for sharing” before she was done sharing. She said firmly “don’t cut me off” and then one of the leaders at the front of the room said “Well he cut you off because you are basically saying that the AA 12 step program is BS" (again this word was used in full not abbreviated). She finished up quickly and you could hear a pin drop for a minute. Then someone else shared and the meeting was over. I was stunned.
Personally, I don’t think she said the program was BS. She was simply telling the room that there are more ways to recovery than what “Mr. Program” said in his share. I do think she scared some of the people in the room with her share and that’s why they cut her off. I have seen several newcomers share in a much more toxic way than she did, but they were tolerated and dismissed as newbies who were still toxic. What do you say to someone who has 26 years of sobriety?
Have you ever seen anything like this at an AA meeting? Did anyone do anything out of line here? Your thoughts are appreciated.
Personally, I don’t think she said the program was BS. She was simply telling the room that there are more ways to recovery than what “Mr. Program” said in his share. I do think she scared some of the people in the room with her share and that’s why they cut her off. I have seen several newcomers share in a much more toxic way than she did, but they were tolerated and dismissed as newbies who were still toxic. What do you say to someone who has 26 years of sobriety?
Have you ever seen anything like this at an AA meeting? Did anyone do anything out of line here? Your thoughts are appreciated.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 120,857
What would I say to someone with 26 years of sobriety? "Congratulations and please tell me how you did it".
I am not an AA'er but I have great respect for the program; it literally saved a few of my friends.
I am sorry to hear that the woman was cut-off before she completed her share.
I am not an AA'er but I have great respect for the program; it literally saved a few of my friends.
I am sorry to hear that the woman was cut-off before she completed her share.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 645
Wow! I've never seen anything that dramatic. I did hear a guy say something like "I don't even think I would want to speak to anyone in the program who hadn't done the steps." He was completely arrogant and all I could do was roll my eyes. I'm on the lady who has 26 years of sobriety side. I don't see this as a one size fits all disease. There are many different paths that can be taken to achieve continuous sobriety. What works for some may not work for others. I feel bad you had to witness that. It had to have been very awkward. Yikes.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,183
I haven't seen anything that dramatic, but yes, intolerance of different opinions was one of my problems with AA meetings. There truly are as many paths to happy sobriety as there are people with alcohol problems, but that perspective is not consistent with following a rigid program - any rigid program, really, not just AA. Or at least what many participants view as a rigid program, even if it's not supposed to be rigid.
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 6,435
AA has no shortage of wackos but some of them have great things to say from time to time. Some are just plain nuts.
I have a group of meetings were the people have what I want so there is not much drama which is just the way I like it
I have a group of meetings were the people have what I want so there is not much drama which is just the way I like it
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
I've been at AA meetings where some people have been drunk, intolerant and generally not all that pleasant. I've also see people exhibit some of those qualities at work, at the post office, at church, on the Internet, even right here on SR.
I think it's important to remember that AA meetings are made up of people. And some people make bad decisions. But don't discount AA ( or any program ) simply due to the actions of a few.
I think it's important to remember that AA meetings are made up of people. And some people make bad decisions. But don't discount AA ( or any program ) simply due to the actions of a few.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 295
I haven't been to a meeting in almost two years, but I vaguely remember a rule posted up on the wall saying that you cannot speak up against the program, plus other methods besides the program weren't to be discussed in meetings...or something similar. I don't remember the wording. It's possible she was breaking a rule, though.
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Originally Posted by ScottFromWI 
I've been at AA meetings where some people have been drunk, intolerant and generally not all that pleasant. I've also see people exhibit some of those qualities at work, at the post office, at church, on the Internet, even right here on SR.
I think it's important to remember that AA meetings are made up of people. And some people make bad decisions. But don't discount AA ( or any program ) simply due to the actions of a few.
I think it's important to remember that AA meetings are made up of people. And some people make bad decisions. But don't discount AA ( or any program ) simply due to the actions of a few.
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
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Our leaders are trusted servants they do not govern ,that includes self appointed leaders , length of sobriety does not give anyone seniority I have seen similar situations , unfortunately some completely lack compassion and the ability to keep an open mind , sometimes you can get ego -driven self importance older long time members who forget there old ''arse '' it is not a competition or a race . AA has a spanner for every ''nut ''
Stevie
Stevie
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Originally Posted by redladyslipper
I haven't been to a meeting in almost two years, but I vaguely remember a rule posted up on the wall saying that you cannot speak up against the program, plus other methods besides the program weren't to be discussed in meetings...or something similar. I don't remember the wording. It's possible she was breaking a rule, though.
Do your best
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 67,047
In the 14 months I was at aa mtns I have never heard of anything like that I remember one dude who had 25 years he didn't accept the programme of aa but said the meetings kept him sober I remember talking with him a few times his shares had such an impact he talked about how he missed the wild west days of aa I'm not going to say some of the things he said but everyone newcomers & oldtimers hung off his words he was kind funny intelligent & honest
I think it's plain wrong to cut someone off to cut someone off who has 26 years & for saying there is another way but again this is down to a few not a majority
There's always going to be some at a mtn who isn't your cup of tea but you can't honestly say you could go somewhere where there is 25-50 ppl & say youl be friends with everyone there will always be some shame it was a 'leader' though
I think it's plain wrong to cut someone off to cut someone off who has 26 years & for saying there is another way but again this is down to a few not a majority
There's always going to be some at a mtn who isn't your cup of tea but you can't honestly say you could go somewhere where there is 25-50 ppl & say youl be friends with everyone there will always be some shame it was a 'leader' though
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Generally speaking, the people in AA meetings are about the most tolerant group of folks you can find anywhere. They tolerate differences in income, religious beliefs (or non beliefs), education and race. The list of their differences is nearly endless. It would be hard to find a group of people who are more different from each other and who still come together and meet regularly as a group.
Interestingly, one of the more passionate subjects of discussion in a meeting is sometimes the AA program itself. I think some of the older members have seen newcomers fail who have tried to stay sober with just meetings and little else. Sometimes this results in great tragedy, or even death. Witnessing these tragedies over a period of years can stir great emotion in people, and the people who witness this can get quite passionate (about the program) as a result.
I can see the other side of it too. Meetings are an essential part of many peoples sobriety. Many people can stay sober while not doing all of the steps. In fact everyone in early AA, who stayed sober, did so without doing all 12 steps (from June of 1935 when Bill and Bob met until Bill wrote the remaining 6 steps in December of 1938). The steps are, after all, suggestions. People are always free to do as they choose and others should be tolerant of their choices.
I think there can be great benefit from both sides attempting to understand the other.
Interestingly, one of the more passionate subjects of discussion in a meeting is sometimes the AA program itself. I think some of the older members have seen newcomers fail who have tried to stay sober with just meetings and little else. Sometimes this results in great tragedy, or even death. Witnessing these tragedies over a period of years can stir great emotion in people, and the people who witness this can get quite passionate (about the program) as a result.
I can see the other side of it too. Meetings are an essential part of many peoples sobriety. Many people can stay sober while not doing all of the steps. In fact everyone in early AA, who stayed sober, did so without doing all 12 steps (from June of 1935 when Bill and Bob met until Bill wrote the remaining 6 steps in December of 1938). The steps are, after all, suggestions. People are always free to do as they choose and others should be tolerant of their choices.
I think there can be great benefit from both sides attempting to understand the other.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
On Cultivating Tolerance
By Dr. Bob Smith
From the editorial column of the July 1944 AA Grapevine
During nine years in AA, I have observed that those who follow the Alcoholics Anonymous program with the greatest earnestness and zeal not only maintain sobriety but often acquire finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance. Tolerance expresses itself in a variety of ways: in kindness and consideration toward the man or woman who is just beginning the march along the spiritual path; in the understanding of those who perhaps have been less fortunate in education advantages; and in sympathy toward those whose religious ideas may seem to be at great variance with our own.
I am reminded in this connection of the picture of a hub with its radiating spokes. We all start at the outer circumference and approach our destination by one of many routes. To say that one spoke is much better than all the other spokes is true only in the sense of its being best suited to you as an individual. Human nature is such that without some degree of tolerance, each one of us might be inclined to believe that we have found the best or perhaps the shortest spoke. Without some tolerance, we might tend to become a bit smug or superior - which, of course, is not helpful to the person we are trying to help and may be quite painful or obnoxious to others. No one of us wishes to do anything that might act as a deterrent to the advancement of another - and a patronizing attitude can readily slow up this process.
Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. In other words, it often promotes an open-mindedness that is vastly important - is, in fact, a prerequisite to the successful termination of any line of search, whether it be scientific or spiritual.
These, then, are a few of the reasons why an attempt to acquire tolerance should be made by each one of us.
By Dr. Bob Smith
From the editorial column of the July 1944 AA Grapevine
During nine years in AA, I have observed that those who follow the Alcoholics Anonymous program with the greatest earnestness and zeal not only maintain sobriety but often acquire finer characteristics and attitudes as well. One of these is tolerance. Tolerance expresses itself in a variety of ways: in kindness and consideration toward the man or woman who is just beginning the march along the spiritual path; in the understanding of those who perhaps have been less fortunate in education advantages; and in sympathy toward those whose religious ideas may seem to be at great variance with our own.
I am reminded in this connection of the picture of a hub with its radiating spokes. We all start at the outer circumference and approach our destination by one of many routes. To say that one spoke is much better than all the other spokes is true only in the sense of its being best suited to you as an individual. Human nature is such that without some degree of tolerance, each one of us might be inclined to believe that we have found the best or perhaps the shortest spoke. Without some tolerance, we might tend to become a bit smug or superior - which, of course, is not helpful to the person we are trying to help and may be quite painful or obnoxious to others. No one of us wishes to do anything that might act as a deterrent to the advancement of another - and a patronizing attitude can readily slow up this process.
Tolerance furnishes, as a by-product, a greater freedom from the tendency to cling to preconceived ideas and stubbornly adhered-to opinions. In other words, it often promotes an open-mindedness that is vastly important - is, in fact, a prerequisite to the successful termination of any line of search, whether it be scientific or spiritual.
These, then, are a few of the reasons why an attempt to acquire tolerance should be made by each one of us.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
There is always more than one point of view, and we tend to look at our own first. From my point of view the variation of the program that that woman was suggesting would have been fatal for me. I had to take all the steps in order to survive. My experiences both drinking and sober closely parallel those in the Big Book.
Now I think also about the alcoholic who is like me and comes to AA. What will he be told? He may or may not be able to survive the shortcut version, That is something none of us can know. Shouldn't we explain the full program, lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection, then let him decide.
There was another instance recently where two sponsors in different areas decided that the AA program was outdated and another method of recovery should be used. This was one that required a trained therapist, which neither sponsor was. Result, and how I came to hear about it, two sponsees attempted suicide, a young man by overdose, a young mother by crashing her car into a tree. The problem was they came to AA for help but they got something completely different, and it didn't work.
I could list a few more examples of where distorted offerings of the AA program have resulted in tragedy. I have to ask myself, would I want to be responsible for that, or will I stick to what is proven to work.
The fact of the matter is that while many people stay sober in AA without doing the steps, the same cannot be said of alcoholics in AA. Many of them may only appear to be staying sober. I knew a lady 25 years, meetings based sobriety, always got a bit wobbly if she missed one or two meetings. Her husband was diagnosed with a terminal illness and she hit the bottle. After 25 years she still had no effective mental defence against the first drink.
It may well be true that there are many paths to sobriety out in the big wide world, but within AA we have only one path. AA is just one option, it is not compulsory, nobody is forced to go, it is entirely voluntary. If it's not for you, then try something else.
I just don't understand the logic of going to McDonalds and being upset that they don't serve Kentucky Fried.
Now I think also about the alcoholic who is like me and comes to AA. What will he be told? He may or may not be able to survive the shortcut version, That is something none of us can know. Shouldn't we explain the full program, lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspection, then let him decide.
There was another instance recently where two sponsors in different areas decided that the AA program was outdated and another method of recovery should be used. This was one that required a trained therapist, which neither sponsor was. Result, and how I came to hear about it, two sponsees attempted suicide, a young man by overdose, a young mother by crashing her car into a tree. The problem was they came to AA for help but they got something completely different, and it didn't work.
I could list a few more examples of where distorted offerings of the AA program have resulted in tragedy. I have to ask myself, would I want to be responsible for that, or will I stick to what is proven to work.
The fact of the matter is that while many people stay sober in AA without doing the steps, the same cannot be said of alcoholics in AA. Many of them may only appear to be staying sober. I knew a lady 25 years, meetings based sobriety, always got a bit wobbly if she missed one or two meetings. Her husband was diagnosed with a terminal illness and she hit the bottle. After 25 years she still had no effective mental defence against the first drink.
It may well be true that there are many paths to sobriety out in the big wide world, but within AA we have only one path. AA is just one option, it is not compulsory, nobody is forced to go, it is entirely voluntary. If it's not for you, then try something else.
I just don't understand the logic of going to McDonalds and being upset that they don't serve Kentucky Fried.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
And while some might think of Bob as a gruff old timer with a heart of gold looking out for the newcomer
I often find such members obnoxious and given AA is based on attraction rather than promotion they are more likely to chase people away than help
To be clear I'm not saying slamming down the bb won't help some newcomers. What I'm saying is such an approach simply doesn't work for everyone.
Of course then there's the "you're not a real alcoholic" nonsense but let's save that for another time.
I often find such members obnoxious and given AA is based on attraction rather than promotion they are more likely to chase people away than help
To be clear I'm not saying slamming down the bb won't help some newcomers. What I'm saying is such an approach simply doesn't work for everyone.
Of course then there's the "you're not a real alcoholic" nonsense but let's save that for another time.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Have you ever seen anything like this at an AA meeting? Did anyone do anything out of line here? Your thoughts are appreciated.
yup, saw it at meetings. still do occasionally. sheeeweee!! is that ever some false pride and ego flyin!!
out of line? imo, yes. "bob" isnt the ultimate authority.just a trusted servant . no love and tolerance there and im guessing too many people are afraid to mention to "bob" hes out of line and ask him where in the big book his behavior is fitting of the program.
both bob and oldtimer in front of room sayin what he said to the woman with 26 years sober-ask em both for me wth they are so afraid of.
and tell the woman i said good on ya for not groveling or being a doormat.
i will agree that meeting makers make meetings.
meeting makers that make meetings and work the program recover from the hopeless state that made em drink. straightening out mentally and emotionally takes time as demonstrated by "bob."
and at times me.
yup, saw it at meetings. still do occasionally. sheeeweee!! is that ever some false pride and ego flyin!!
out of line? imo, yes. "bob" isnt the ultimate authority.just a trusted servant . no love and tolerance there and im guessing too many people are afraid to mention to "bob" hes out of line and ask him where in the big book his behavior is fitting of the program.
both bob and oldtimer in front of room sayin what he said to the woman with 26 years sober-ask em both for me wth they are so afraid of.
and tell the woman i said good on ya for not groveling or being a doormat.
i will agree that meeting makers make meetings.
meeting makers that make meetings and work the program recover from the hopeless state that made em drink. straightening out mentally and emotionally takes time as demonstrated by "bob."
and at times me.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
It's a shame it happened, and hopefully isn't a common occurrence at that meeting. Thing is, it might be that they have a long old friendship and understanding of each other and that was just them heckling each other up.
I got a text message of support from someone relatively new to a meeting I've been attending a while. She was upset that someone had spoken to me in a particular way at the meeting. Thing is, I hadn't even given the conversation a minutes head-space, because I knew she was just kidding with me, and she knows I can take it from her. After I got the text I replayed it all in my head, and supposed that someone feeling a little jangley might well have misconstrued it. Her text was sent to me over 24 hours after the meeting ended, and she was building a good, proper resentment on my behalf. I assured her all was well, and that it wasn't how it looked. I'm not saying that this was the same situation as at the meeting you went to. Just that it's hard to tell with how others relate to each other when we attend meetings that we don't often go to, and we don't have insight about what others are going through. (Plus - in my experience, Thanksgiving and Christmas and the like can be tough times for a lot of folk, so maybe they weren't at their most loving and tolerant best.)
Shame that the meeting wasn't a calm, safe, refuge from life for you and others though.
I got a text message of support from someone relatively new to a meeting I've been attending a while. She was upset that someone had spoken to me in a particular way at the meeting. Thing is, I hadn't even given the conversation a minutes head-space, because I knew she was just kidding with me, and she knows I can take it from her. After I got the text I replayed it all in my head, and supposed that someone feeling a little jangley might well have misconstrued it. Her text was sent to me over 24 hours after the meeting ended, and she was building a good, proper resentment on my behalf. I assured her all was well, and that it wasn't how it looked. I'm not saying that this was the same situation as at the meeting you went to. Just that it's hard to tell with how others relate to each other when we attend meetings that we don't often go to, and we don't have insight about what others are going through. (Plus - in my experience, Thanksgiving and Christmas and the like can be tough times for a lot of folk, so maybe they weren't at their most loving and tolerant best.)
Shame that the meeting wasn't a calm, safe, refuge from life for you and others though.
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