Gilmer

Robby, that reminds me of a quote from an old priest in M. Scott Peck's book, People of the Lie:

"There are dozens of ways to deal with evil and several ways to conquer it. All of them are facets of the truth that the only ultimate way to conquer evil is to let it be smothered within a willing, living human being. When it is absorbed there like blood in a sponge or a spear into one's heart, it loses its power and goes no further."

RobbyRobot

Wow Gilmer. I got to tell you I really felt those words of the old priest quoted from the book. Thanks for that. It felt good.

Gilmer

I felt them, too, and they came at a time when I really needed them.

Fly N Buy

Sounds like some false bravado - when I had bootstrap thoughts like these I had been drinking! I am grateful today that guy is gone.
I cannot( present tense) intellectualize my illness away. It is permanent and irreversible.

Congratulations on around 10 months sobriety! Keep coming back.

You made some headway since this post you made last September - Good!

Start
Intellectually I know I can't drink. I know if I start I don't know when to stop. I know it makes me anxious and a vile person. But I knew it the last two times too. Perhaps someone could share how they maintained this process ?
End

Sounds like you are in control now. For me I had to surrender. All my attempts at using will power failed and left me bewildered. Hats off for those who simply can "will" there addiction away. Good for them!!
I am a real alcoholic and it doesn't simply go away cause I want it to. Like you, I intellectually knew I could not drink and after some time would always drink again.

Simply, powerful........

Ken33xx

Well said.

It`s not just the message which is important but how it`s presented. Not everyone relates the same.

ArtFriend

Good stuff here guys. I don't respond to tough love at all, basically because I am already shame based and hard on myself. I take on more than I should. Everything is my fault kind of thing. I do not deflect, but absorb, much to my detriment.

skg

""When an alcoholic eliminates the allergy problem by removing the alcohol, he or she then faces the same problem as the Al-Anon member, that of not allowing others to determine how they feel. Of course, it only happens to people willing to give up their emotional independence, and unwilling to reclaim it." Dr. Paul O., You Can't Make Me Angry, pp 31."

It's easy to complain about the world and make judgments while sitting on the sideline. The press has made an entire industry of it--talk shows, yellow journalism, 'news magazines,' sports radio, whatever. If you can do, join the media and criticize those who can.

When I was in my cups I walked around just waiting to be offended--and I usually didn't have to wait long. It was like walking around with no skin and everyone had salt shakers! I never considered that I was a victim--just that everyone else was stupid and should have stayed in school. And it nearly killed me--it's alot of work carrying the world's problems around.

Turns out, it was fear. Somethings weren't the way I wanted them, or someone threatened to trample my unrealistic expectations. Can't live in an imaginary world with all this reality going on unless medicating heavily to squelch the fear of living in it. Worse--having someone judge me!

I needed a design for living life on life's terms. Turns out, I'm not real good about knowing what's good for me, and so when I keep my hands and feet inside the cart as it's whizzing down the rollercoaster of life, I'm less likely to invest myself in what you think of me.

Peaceness...

fini

It wasn't about me. It was about them. They needed to know someone cared enough to stand by them.

the very same "safe place" that was belittled further up.
so many things in life where a safe place can make all the difference in starting to come up for air. where change begins to be possible.

EndGameNYC

I'm of at least two minds on this subject, and I carry strong opinions in each of them. So, rather than being provocative, I'll keep them to myself. For now.

I will echo Dee's comments and share something that a friend and I on SR discuss in a situation like this one: Timing and context are everything.

When compassion turns to enabling, when offering support is giving "permission," and when nothing else "works," then confrontation is indicated. The problem is, we're not all equally adept at confrontation, and even those people who have acquired this skill do not always apply it successfully or with sufficient compassion. Healthy confrontation is something that's less problematic in face-to-face situations in which both people know each other, and in which a certain amount of trust has been built.

As for 'victimhood' or 'victimization', it's largely a learned behavior that can also be unlearned. It's a specific version of learned helplessness, whereby we learn that no matter what we do, we are unable to either relieve our suffering or fulfill our emotional needs. A place like SR, where people who are suffering rightly draw more attention than those who are not, is a safe environment for a person who craves support in which to operate, both in healthy and unhealthy ways. It's safe to say that, whatever attitude or action we take, we do so in order to fulfill a need that's not yet being met. There is nothing at all insidious about it until the person becomes aware of it and then continues to use his or her victimhood in the service of manipulating other people to get what they want.

People generally fall into victimhood because nothing else has gotten them the things that they believe they need, such as love, connection with other people, and a sense of safety. There is also the concept of "secondary gain" in psychology, which refers to the psychological benefits that one derives from one's illness, such as attention and care. "The longer I'm depressed, the longer people will care for me." For example, children who feel neglected often report a number of psychological and physical symptoms in order to elicit the attention they crave. Secondary gain is also the driving force behind Munchausen Syndrome.

Most people here seem to take great care in offering support. The reality is that people who have come to use victimhood as a way of life tend to be very sensitive to comments that are not entirely or overtly supportive. They often see criticism where it is not, since they've likely been neglected or otherwise abused earlier in life, and since blaming others for their circumstances is what they've learned to do. Active alcoholism provides many opportunities for this, so many of us, at least in the beginning, may see ourselves as victims. After all, none of us chose to be alcoholics or to suffer the dire consequences of our drinking.

When in doubt, leave the confrontation behind for a better time, if ever.

EndGameNYC

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/r...ica-cox#/story

tomsteve

Good stuff there.
IMO there's being a victim and playing victim.
But something more extremely important:
Deciding to become a victor and/ or survivor.
I was diagnosed stage 3 metastatic melanoma 13 months into recovery. A victim? Welp, pretty much self induced victim. In al honesty, my old thinking was still with me a wee bit and I wanted sympathy. I wanted poeple to let me " just vent" which would have then been playing the victim. Which I tried to do. The true friends I have didn't allow me to do that. a very good friend of mine who heard quite a bit of my self pity( playing the victim) FINALLY said one day," Welp, keep it up and you'll be drunk and dead. And im getting pretty tired of listening to it and it aint doing either one of us any good to keep letting ya do it..Or make the choice to do what ya gotta do to be a survivor."
I've been a victim.
I played victim.
And am now a survivor.

Many other circumstances I could tell about where i was the victim-ones when I was drinking- only difference is I decided to keep playing the victim and stayed drunk.

Tc4ever

Thanks Tom. You made my point alot clearer than I did. There is a big difference in being a victim and "Playing the Victim'' In my opinion also.

mcfearless

I'm just going to add this :

The people who often need "tough love" the most are the ones who are sure sure it's not what they need. Those stuck in a cycle of self pity and a feeling of haplessness. This type of mentality feeds off pity and cognitive dissonance.

RobbyRobot

My experience with providing real time tough love for those who apparently "need it" (as you say) are they are well aware of what they need with and from tough love since it's more like they don't know much else but being tough on themselves and others, to get in touch with their deeper emotions. Using tough love to break through such a person's defenses only makes sense if the said person is willing to be open-minded thereafter and begin to take responsibility for their own feelings, become more honest, and put up less defenses in their day to day lives.

Self-pity is a place we have all been at different times in our lives. When we find ourselves in a constant state of self-pity, it makes good sense to seek better ways to live and enjoy one's life. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me anyways, that those who suffer with self-pity require tough love to get them not feeling sorry for themselves. Here again, purposely tough loving someone who is already down with the idea that piling on more hurt and trauma will bring a new awareness of their sorry state is not something I'll agree is in any way helpful.

I find those who are bullies to others are the ones who themselves don't realize how their treatment of others seriously reflects how they themselves feel they have been treated by others. Bullies are taught to first be victims, and then they cross the line and become abusers in their own right. These guys are "sure" they don't need tough love. And they go about their day to day lives making sure they present to others as a person not to mess with.

Would I tough love a bully? I might if I could help the bully understand why he is bullying others. Otherwise, what would be the point of beating up on a bully? Turn him back into a victim? Isn't that how bullies are originally made i.e. from victim to bully?

Mcfearless, I'm wondering if you have been tough loved by qualified others in a therapeutic setting? If so, what enlightenments have you come to enjoy which you attribute to being tough loved?

ScottFromWI

The only thing I think we can say with 100% certainty is that everyone is different. You cannot pound a square peg into a round hole, and using that approach to deal with addiction will yield similar results. Some people respond to therapy, others need drugs. Some need group meetings and clearly defined steps, others do very well with self paced methods.

fini

i'm not sure who's qualified to say "who needs what".
i do know i've occasionally benefitted from "tough love" - in instances where i was as sure as i could be that the person dishing it out actually wanted to feed me with something nutritious.

i've also "dished out tough love" to my oldest daughter a few times in her teenage years. this was possible and useful and though she didn't "like it" she accepted it as reasonable and useful because of ultimately trusting me.

"tough love" imo and in my experience can work if there's care and trust already built . in other words, where there is some safe space already existing for the person to manoeuvre in.

for those of us who aren't entirely fearless

interruptedgirl

It wasn't that long ago, where I would wake up absolutely confounded by the previous nights/days antics. Wondering, how, after promising myself I wouldn't, managed to drink x amount of bottles of wine. Even if I hadn't crashed my car, or hit someone, or said hateful words, or otherwise denigrated and humiliated myself...how had I drank myself to a near comatose state AGAIN???

Yes, like most humans bad things have happened to me, and yes alcohol fueled and coddled feelings of rage and victimization at myself and by others, but THAT is something I didn't focus on until sober.

I don't think tough love necessarily hurts or helps an addict. When we don't want to hear or see something, we block it out. Sure the seeds may be planted but it takes forever to root because we, in active addiction, don't look within, we are looking externally.

The realization that individually, we are responsible for our recovery, if not the addiction it self, can be a seemingly endless path, hence why so many question, "why not just put down the bottle/stop drinking?"

There lies the conundrum of all addictions. The action of abstaining is so "simple" yet alcoholism is as old as time.

I believe, the people who are seemingly "coddling" the active addicts here, are keen and wise to the audience, because they have lived it, and have worked through it. They are not speaking to a "person" they are speaking to their disease.

Sometimes the only way to keep breathing, and having any hope for recovery is as simple as hearing we are not alone. Sometimes the only way to stay recovered is the reminder that we are not alone. Empathy, grace, and support works both ways.

mcfearless

It's really not about me. I've experienced tolerance, love, understanding, pity etc through my years of alcoholism (because I had a serious illness through most of it which allowed me to rationalize and justify my drinking as a coping mechanism).

I've been through two rehabilitation programs. Each with an opposite approach. I've seen all approaches and sides. I have a degree in psychology (so I have some insight into the various mechanisms and approaches) but I don't pretend to have all the answers.

I'm just trying to keep the door open on what I believe to be a fact : Not everyone who is an addict needs soft touch. In many cases this harms more than helps. Some people need a firm kick in the bum. Can we all agree on that piece of obviousness or has the world gone mad ?

Allowing people to decide for themselves on which side on that equation they belong....I can guarantee you when you ask them to split into two groups according to their perceived needs...a lot of the first ones who will step to "the soft touch" are the ones who really need the tough love. Their pathology is inherently one of self pity and lack of capacity for personal responsibility. These aren't the people who are being hard on themselves ! They are the ones who need to be hard on themselves !

Anyone already being hard on themselves (not histrionically and disingenuously) obviously won't benefit from "tough love".

Personally I don't "coddle" the alcoholic in me. I lord over him like a vicious tyrant. He will whine and plead and try smooth talk and seduce me, but I won't have any of it. He's a pathetic, weak, useless, manipulative, sly and toxic individual and I'd be an idiot to concern myself with what he wants and even give him half an opportunity to get his way.

paulokes

Here's my take:
Without knowing it, I became a victim as a drunk and got used to justifying and letting myself get away with things plenty.

When I got sober, in AA, there was a tendency to be VERY self-critical. This was reflected sometimes in the kind of help I tried to give others...but I didn't know it at the time.

In lots of ways, it was good that I learnt to avoid playing the victim...learned to take responsibility and spot my faults. Went too far though. With a bit more time I became more compassionate with myself...and funnily enough became genuinely more compassionate with others.

Whatever I think I know, I have no right to tear someone else a new a-hole...but I didn't know any better. Had spent plenty of time tearing myself one.

There are some good comments on this thread. IMO the "thanks" are a good indication of the quality of comment here, with no disrespect to anyone.

It's about balance, which for me we learn with time and experience.

P

thomas11

Interesting question. Firstly, I believe there are legitimate people who are victims, no question. With that being said, in the US, I think the victim thing has become cultural. And that's a long drawn out discussion. But everyone's a victim, the lack of accountability is pathetic. You can thank corporatism and lawyers for that (no offense to anyone in the legal community).

I will add this, and it is strictly my own opinion, I don't feel too strongly about much, I try to stay middle of the road on everything. But I feel VERY strongly about the victimization thing. People need thicker skin, to be held accountable, and buck up once in a while. My god, enough with the hand-holding all the time.