RobbyRobot

Yes, well said Soberlicious. You're an awesome example of your own words above, my friend. You walk your talk with a smooth style, if I may so say.

soberlicious

Thank you, Robby. While you and I have had our philosophical differences, I respect your shares from your experiences. I'm glad to see that you do not diminish others' experiences with addiction. I cannot believe what I see on this thread where members are suggesting that others "weren't bad enough", or that they weren't really ever addicted, or that they basically don't "understand" other mental disorders, or just basically pooh-pooh anyone who takes a different path. I have strong opinions, yes, and I speak my mind, yes, but I would not dream of telling another member that their way is wrong or that they have not suffered as I have suffered. It turns my stomach.

awuh1

I have been following this thread, and I must have missed that soberlicious. Can you site some examples?

Dee74

Since I posted this

the last couple of pages have been pretty good to my eyes. Thanks to all

I'd like to keep it that way.

Maybe sobes can send you a PM instead awuh?

Dee
Moderator
SR

Aellyce

I have thoughts on this part of the OP:

I really liked some of the latest posts on this thread about alcoholism/substance addiction being part of a larger construct, intertwined with other issues, and that they cannot be very effectively and definitively addressed as long as we carry some of the most dominant issues that drive the whole construct. Some members here clearly experienced that targeting the separate problems one-by-one is effective and may eradicate specific problems, and then we can move on. It's great that it works for some people. My own view, or more precisely, my own experience, tends to be that the totality or whole of the issues (a person's individual "construct") is often different from simply being the sum of the isolated, specific problems, and so it's best addressed together in some form, or at least not dismissing critical components.

I've arrived to this view from my life experience with obsessions, addictions, and other "disturbed" thought and emotional patterns. The very first major obsessional issue for me manifested in over a decade of eating disorders when I was very young. And then I addressed these and some specific underlying problems and motives, and then they were gone. It's been over 25 years now and those problems never came back in any similar form, and I confidently consider myself recovered from them. Did not even use external help or support system to "solve" it. But even since, I've had a series of other obsessions, some more disruptive than others, each typically lasting for a few years (sometimes less), and then I "work on them" and they seemingly disappear. Some of these are overlapping or co-evolving/coexistent. The latest (probably most serious and destructive so far) one that I obviously worked a lot on has been my alcoholism. At this point (~14 months into recovery from it), I feel more and more similarly about it as I did about the other issues in the past after some time: that it's getting more and more to a point when it no longer carries weight, temptation or danger... I rarely have any significant thoughts or fear of drinking, not drinking, or relapsing now. Not overly confident of course, but internally it seems like my mind has moved out of that "danger zone" and it's more a sort of indifference regarding alcohol. I do have other obsessions that come and go though, and have been for a long time... and knowing myself from experience pretty well now, I kinda expect that perhaps there will also be new ones in the future given I just decide to "move on" (like a few times before) and not deal with the larger construct behind this whole pattern. And this is what I am interested in now, in my second year of "recovery" from alcoholism, to find ways to address the whole thing together rather than one-by-one. Of course it can go only so far... for example, I'm pretty sure there are inborn (genetic etc) components and I can't change those. But I can possibly influence how these factors manifest.

I personally have no problems with labels and with remembering and identifying with my problems for a lifetime, not as ongoing but acknowledging I had them. The isolated issues do tend to be "resolved problems" for me after a while, this has been my pattern and experience. Probably only me, but I personally feel that a strong objection against descriptions like alcoholic, addict, anorexic, bulimic, workaholic, delusional, bipolar-ish... etc for me would mean that I still actually carry resentments and residual problems related to these deep down. I did have all these specific issues after all at some point in my life. There are lots of debates in fields like psychiatry and psychology in regards to pathologizing (which involves using these labels) and whether that's a useful approach to treatment and trying to solve these problems. I personally do not vote pro or con in this area, because I think it's highly individual. For some people, labels and terms that suggest "abnormal" are counterproductive beyond a certain level and time, but in other cases I think it helps people (many like having clear diagnoses, "I know what's wrong with me now!").

I feel that it's possible to move on from the specific problems and still identify as someone who is familiar with them -- it actually helps in communities like this, when we are trying to help others who currently struggle. So, why not? For me, refusing this would mean that I fall prey to my own stigmatizing.

In summary, I feel that overly pushing any one dogma or point of view on others (assuming they have intact enough judgment) is not constructive. Presenting and discussing options and possibilities without attaching right/wrong statements to them is often more productive. But after all, even this depends on the individual... some people clearly do best with clear external instructions and being told what to do, how to do it etc. So my conclusion here is really the most trivial one: find what works and gives satisfying and meaningful result, both in the short and long run.

soberlicious

My main objection is that terms like those are not person-first language. Yes, they can serve as common language and are sometimes necessary for communicating about a topic, but as I said before, I don't call my son "autistic" because he is not a disorder, he's a person. Of course we all use words to define ourselves...I'm a teacher, a mom of multiples, a "special needs" mom, a boy mom, I'm formerly addicted, I'm divorced, I'm a soapmaker, a seamstress, a bellydancer, former smoker....but those terms just serve as descriptors for me, in communicating with others. It's not as though if I don't remind myself that I'm a teacher every day by calling myself a teacher that I'm going to forget that and revert back to not having any clue about how to teach a child to read. I just do it. Every day. It's woven into who I am, as is my past addiction, and every other single experience in my life. The many years I spent in active addiction are not what primarily define me now, and I'm certainly grateful for that. The damage I did to myself and my loved ones will never be forgotten, but for my family, the best gift I have given them is living differently. The actions that accompany that speak louder than any words I could ever utter.

Aellyce

I agree, soberlicious. This is part of what I was trying to bring across above: that these isolated issues (some past, some current) are not what we are, but describe some specific problems we faced at some point or are currently facing. That, for example, alcoholism is not the big picture issue, just a part of how some aspects of us manifest (or it did in the past), in some cases for a very long time, in others more transiently. And I do believe, because I have seen it, that some of us can completely move on and not look back when it's over, and it won't come back in the same form or other forms later. Not my experience with obsessions in general so far, but I know and have seen others, here and in the 3D world, who work this way.

I also completely agree that over-identifying with any single role is not a good thing for most of us, and this includes even 100% neutral and positive ones as well, like being a teacher, or a mom, or anything. Because that way we become very dependent on these roles. I had problems with this in the past, for example that I tended to over-identify with my professional role (researcher or scientist) because I felt that the psychological and methodical features involved in it spanned so many areas of my life, many that had nothing to do with my profession. One of my recurring problems tended to be over-identifying with my mind and then minimizing other aspects and other ways of relating, sometimes to truly pathological levels. I'm happy this is also a past issue for me now, but it was very real, on/off for a long time and affected parts of my life negatively. (Eg. trying to use a "scientific approach" in all affairs... obviously not good in many contexts.) It's a sort of attachment problem and another kind of obsession with trying to fit in in some ways, to find a "niche" in life, in society, in myself etc. This really had to go for me. And yes what remains is the action part: science is what I do as a professional, but I am much more than that. Just like much more than an alcoholic (past or present, does not matter) or a person who loves to travel, or a daughter, friend, etc etc. These are all just aspects of ourselves, some cause problems for us (and others around us), some don't, and some do good.

I also have the impression, especially from my experience on SR, that some of us experience strong feelings (and meaning) when specific terms are used to describe us. Others do not, and argue it's all just semantics. I've thought about this many times before and observed that I personally don't tend to experience strong feelings as a reaction when describing myself or being described with these words that relate to specific aspects of myself, not since I've been involved here at least. I guess in part this is why I'm (and some of us are) not disturbed by these descriptions, because they do not trigger strong emotional reactions. In any case, I don't want to spread out with this or go in more deeply now because it wasn't the topic of the thread originally.

In general, I think it's always the best practice to be sensitive to how other people might react to these descriptions, pieces of advice etc when we communicate, although it's not always easy in practice. I similarly see this being a challenge for people who do clinical work dealing with diagnosing and treating others, even conventionally physical problems such as a heart disease. Let alone parenting a child, or teaching students with individual challenges. Effective personalized treatment is never trivial.

soberlicious

haennie,
Yes to all of what you said! I would definitely agree that some of us have strong reactions and others do not. Perhaps my strong aversion to labels (beyond the necessary use for communicating, or as in the case of my sons-for important funding of services/care they need) is that I have personally seen a sort of learned helplessness evolve from over-identifying with a disorder or problematic behavior. My other son has dyslexia and ADHD, along with my other son's autism...these are important identifiers in terms of securing services, therapies, etc, but we do not treat labels, we treat behaviors. My son has said to me before, "I can't do that assignment, mom, you know I'm dyslexic." No, I'm sorry, you will not use your label to give up. I believe that same is true among the addicted. I have heard all too often "I'm alcoholic...*sigh*" To that I say...ok and how is that currently manifesting for you? What specific behaviors do you wish to modify? For those who find the label useful in driving them toward change, that's good. My posts have simply been to point out that it is not necessary for some of us. So, if a person is wondering if they are doomed to failure by not identifying, or by moving on without looking back as a daily routine, then I would say that there are many examples of those who have successfully done just that.

and for the record, haennie, I find your posts extremely well written. Even when I don't agree with what you say, I love reading how you relate to others. You're a beautiful soul, and thank you.

Aellyce

Thank you, soberlicious. And likewise There are a few people on this board that I always enjoy reading and don't like to miss, you are one.