Mixed feelings about AA being a cult
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
I rotated 6 different meetings over a total of over a year between going back "out". Started each stint with the recommend 90 in 90. Now almost 2.5 years clean doing it my way instead of doing what I was told. Not saying that if it works for you, you should stop going. Just not my thing I guess. Wasn't going to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results.
"the programme of suggestions in the Big Book is seen as almost a Holy Text."
I brought this up at a meeting once. I also said I felt the founder was just a human being with lots of faults and I was troubled by him being treated and quoted as if he were the messiah. I was treated to a 45 minute quote filled lecture from an old timer. Oops! It was my last meeting.
I brought this up at a meeting once. I also said I felt the founder was just a human being with lots of faults and I was troubled by him being treated and quoted as if he were the messiah. I was treated to a 45 minute quote filled lecture from an old timer. Oops! It was my last meeting.
Of course, you were annoyed and with good reason.
But by the same token I had to learn not to be deliberately confrontational in my shares.
Now, I’m not saying you were (deliberately confrontational) but zero for 6 isn’t a good track record.
A couple of months back I saw a member who I hadn't seen in a long time. I thought he left the country or had gone back to drinking. He shared that he was sober but didn't feel the need to come to AA much.
No drama and those who knew the man were glad to see him.
He left and I've not seen him since.
We here in a Lakeside meeting of AA many years ago did have a man come into a meeting and state that fact, "he followed the devil." I never saw him again. I think that he was trying to make some kind of a statement ?
Wouldn't the Devil be a lower power rather than a higher power anyway?
One does not have to be an alcoholic to understand alcoholism.
Incidentally, one does not have to believe in Yahweh to recover from alcoholism either.
Well the mercury rose a bit here in the northeast. High in the low 20's this afternoon with plenty of sun throughout the day. Lows once again drop to or below zero tonight. Winds are calm with high pressure from the north dominating the atmosphere for the next couple days.
Watch out for icy spots on the drive home..
Back to you.
Watch out for icy spots on the drive home..
Back to you.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,945
I know that from time to time, people on this site debate whether they think AA is a cult. This post kind of relates to that but it's also personal.
So, I now have seven weeks since my last drink and before that I only took a drink once since last August. So that's quite a lot of sober time and a lot of AA meetings.
I want to be clear. AA has been helpful. I have learned a lot and I have made some friendships with supportive people. I've got a sponsor and I'm attempting to do the steps. I have read the Big Book a couple of times, including the stuff at the back about people who recovered.
My feeling is that as a system to change your mind about drinking and inspire you to stay sober, AA works well. At least it did for me. As a way of programming you to a fulfilling life, I'm not so sure.
The last meeting I went to was two days ago and there were a lot of long shares from people with more than ten years sobriety. One of them specifically brought up the subject of whether AA is a cult and of course he denied it is. "No one makes you do anything - it's all suggestions."
I don't really go along with that. The group pressure is strong and although people can't be coerced into sobriety, they are under a lot of pressure to think the AA way. For example, the programme of suggestions in the Big Book is seen as almost a Holy Text. Debate and discussion is not actively encouraged. As one person said on Saturday "I was encouraged to leave my intellect at the door".
It's not the spiritual element of the programme per se that I disagree with. Nor is it the structure of the meetings. The problem in the groups I go to is the dominance of old timers who repeatedly talk about their recovery as a salvation but don't seem to be moving on in other areas of their lives even decades after stopping drinking.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
Of course, this isn't meant as an attack on AA in general. It's purely my perspective at the moment and I know my feelings about the group change. I think i'm tempted to step back from AA a little bit at the moment. Part of me warns that could prelude another relapse. Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
So, I now have seven weeks since my last drink and before that I only took a drink once since last August. So that's quite a lot of sober time and a lot of AA meetings.
I want to be clear. AA has been helpful. I have learned a lot and I have made some friendships with supportive people. I've got a sponsor and I'm attempting to do the steps. I have read the Big Book a couple of times, including the stuff at the back about people who recovered.
My feeling is that as a system to change your mind about drinking and inspire you to stay sober, AA works well. At least it did for me. As a way of programming you to a fulfilling life, I'm not so sure.
The last meeting I went to was two days ago and there were a lot of long shares from people with more than ten years sobriety. One of them specifically brought up the subject of whether AA is a cult and of course he denied it is. "No one makes you do anything - it's all suggestions."
I don't really go along with that. The group pressure is strong and although people can't be coerced into sobriety, they are under a lot of pressure to think the AA way. For example, the programme of suggestions in the Big Book is seen as almost a Holy Text. Debate and discussion is not actively encouraged. As one person said on Saturday "I was encouraged to leave my intellect at the door".
It's not the spiritual element of the programme per se that I disagree with. Nor is it the structure of the meetings. The problem in the groups I go to is the dominance of old timers who repeatedly talk about their recovery as a salvation but don't seem to be moving on in other areas of their lives even decades after stopping drinking.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
Of course, this isn't meant as an attack on AA in general. It's purely my perspective at the moment and I know my feelings about the group change. I think i'm tempted to step back from AA a little bit at the moment. Part of me warns that could prelude another relapse. Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
Don't drink and Don't croak.
Anyway, I need to get going soon. I have to be at my home group in one hour: we've got a 2pm meeting and I am in charge of the Kool Aid
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: dallas tx
Posts: 24
[QUOTE=tomsteve;5221259]Why blame AA for the 5% success rate you claim? Did AA put a drink in anyone's hand?
In other words, whose responsable for a persons recovery? Who is responsable,for a person drinking?
AA doesn't get people drunk. They do that all themselves.
Congrats on 7 months and knowing everything there's to know about alcoholism,
Now put pen to paper and share with the world your wealth of knowledge on how to get and stay sober.[/QUOT
I'm allowed to voice MY opinion. I never claimed to know everything about alcoholism. I do know that we need more research and more alternatives to fight this disease. If you went to the hospital for ANY problem and they treated you with 80 year old treatments YOU WOULD PROTEST. AA and 12 steps are the most prescribed treatment. They aren't that successful. Period. We need SOMETHING ELSE. I don't know what that is, but I am not a doctor or research scientist. I think alcoholism deserves the same attention as other diseases.
In other words, whose responsable for a persons recovery? Who is responsable,for a person drinking?
AA doesn't get people drunk. They do that all themselves.
Congrats on 7 months and knowing everything there's to know about alcoholism,
Now put pen to paper and share with the world your wealth of knowledge on how to get and stay sober.[/QUOT
I'm allowed to voice MY opinion. I never claimed to know everything about alcoholism. I do know that we need more research and more alternatives to fight this disease. If you went to the hospital for ANY problem and they treated you with 80 year old treatments YOU WOULD PROTEST. AA and 12 steps are the most prescribed treatment. They aren't that successful. Period. We need SOMETHING ELSE. I don't know what that is, but I am not a doctor or research scientist. I think alcoholism deserves the same attention as other diseases.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
Well the mercury rose a bit here in the northeast. High in the low 20's this afternoon with plenty of sun throughout the day. Lows once again drop to or below zero tonight. Winds are calm with high pressure from the north dominating the atmosphere for the next couple days.
Watch out for icy spots on the drive home..
Back to you.
Watch out for icy spots on the drive home..
Back to you.
For thosw struggling with the interpretation of 'god', it is often suggested that Good Orderly Direction, or Group Of Drunks, be sufficient for the moment. If the Group Of Drunks is to be the higher power that we are asked to 'turn our will and our live over to', then it would be remiss of people not to have questions as to whether it is a 'cult', as the OP has asked.
There are certainly some (note I say some) elements of what may appear to the newcomer as cult behavior, such as the holding of hands and reciting prayers, members talking in group-speak cliches, the insistence that 'every word, every italicized passage, had been written exactly that way for a reason, and no deviation on the wording is acceptable' and the treatment of Bill W's writings as gospel. It is often suggested that we consider doing away with old friends, that we give our innermost secrets over to a stranger (ie a sponsor), and that we accept that our old life was a mess, and that this secret (read: Anonymous) group holds the key. A group that strongly discourages outside interference, and seeks to control media liaison.
Please try and step away from your accepted and trusted opinion of AA for a moment, and view the fellowship through the eyes of a newcomer. A fragile, broken person who has made one of the biggest decisions in their life to join a mysterious group with what appears to be many rules, regulations, and religious reference (ie 'god', 'the creator' etc).
As you will note from my earlier contributions, I'm accepting that AA is where I need to be, and I'm working hard to accept what is still a fairly unusual international group - nothing in my past bears any similarity to the AA concept, but I'm here, and for the foreseeable future, that's going to be a big part of my life. But I'm still close enough to my first Day 1 (well, my first day of walking into the rooms) to know that AA can be a daunting concept, and I would like to hope that those 'older sober members' are not dismissive of open, articulate and respectful dialogue when people have questions or concerns.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
In accordance with:
“We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.”
I was contacted last year by a guy who was interested in starting an Atheist/Agnostic group in my town, and the entire one hour phone conversation devolved into him ranting and raving about how ridiculous christianity is, and how the conventional AA was keeping him away from long term sobriety. I politely retracted my interest in forming a new group with him, because such vitriol towards christianity has no place in the 12-Step model of recovery. In the past, I would have been as passionate as him, but my heart is leaning towards 'whatever works for you is none of my business'. As long as people don't insist that their 'god' is the only HP for everyone, then there's no place for bitterness overtaking the primary goal of helping each other to get and stay sober.
In the social media age, there appears to be a marked increase in self-identifying as an atheist, who openly and often remind people at every opportunity. Why is this the case ? Most christians, muslims, hindus, buddhist or Jewish followers don't promote their belief with such vigour. The only sects that do take an outward and 'in your face' approach to spreading their beliefs are the Jehova's Witness and the Latter Day Saints (neither of which consider themselves 'christian' as far as I know).
These 'loud & proud' atheists seem to possess an academic thesis against organised religious beliefs that is learned from little more than a bunch of Richard Dawkins quotes/memes, and the occasional YouTube video. Yet when pressed to enter into dialogue on the themes they are promoting in favour of 'no god', often they fall flat, and are without the skills to support their social media propaganda snippets. That's not to suggest that atheists need to be well-read in such matters, nor be understanding of scientific theory. Back to the more 'outward' faiths of JW or LDS, at least they have a strong basis for debate and I have spend many dozens of hours in my time discussing with them why I think their religion is fallacious. And they have an answer to everything ! They are very good at what they do, and well-versed in passages from the books they hold faith in. I'll give them credit for that.
But if they (atheists) are going to shout their proclamations from the rooftops, then they need to be familiar with the concepts they are promoting. For most atheists though, the word itself is simply a label for the census. As a non-believer (in anything) it is not their place, nor a requirement to 'prove' anything. In one's heart, something either exists or it doesn't exist.
Therein lies the problem with Atheist/Agnostic 12-Step Recovery. All too often it descends into 'this is that belief is crap'. It's an excellent discussion to be had in society, to be sure - but I go to AA to help me recover from alcohol addiction (understanding that it's about changing me, not just putting down the booze). If I wished to engage in critical debate about religion as a significant ongoing discourse, I would join a debating group (or make posts on forums haha).
There is as much place in an Atheist/Agnostic AA meeting for 'anti-religion' as there is in a traditional meeting for Jesus-based faith. And that is, not a lot. Sure it's always going t o come up, but to spend too much time on such matters is drawing away from AA's principal purpose, which is to help the alcoholic get and stay sober.
I was as critical of the motivations behind the 'Rational Recovery' method also. Being adverse to 'god' (it still stings, despite my growing open mindedness to concepts that may be considered a 'god', if we need to use such terms), I purchased that fellow's book. I was quickly put off by what appeared to be the author's open disdain for AA, and his disparaging of the 12-Step concept. There's some issues of credibility that arise when someone says 'oh, that way's crap, but my way is better'. Why should I listen to him, it's not a competition for the best recovery method. If it works for some, then that's great. If AA works for others, then that's great also. I attach myself too often to critical, negative thought about AA (a character default, perhaps), but the open disparaging comments about other methods rarely comes up... in fact I can't recall ANY instance where an AA member has stated that other recovery methods are crap (although it is inferred at times, from the old-timers mainly).
[Personal Opinion here]Mister RR also lost points in my eyes, when he took the route that the 'loud & proud' atheists do, when laying out what appeared to be neourological text with diagrams, then proceeded to tag parts of the brain with pet-names. I can certainly see how the concepts he is promoting may be of benefit, but the diagrams put it in the realm of twee psuedoscience, and bear no relevance to the study of neurology.
For those who openly dismiss AA, in favour of Rational Recovery, I feel that there's a lot of blind faith involved in accepting the author's approach. But this isn't a war of the methods. RR has helped people, so that's wonderful. AA has helped people, and that too is wonderful. I'm fortunate enough to have been exposed to recovering alcoholics and addicts that have turned their back on both, turning instead to the study and embracing of eastern philosophical 'faith', that implores the adherent to 'live right' and promotes the idea that self-improvement of the very essence of our existence is the key to contentment, whether they are an addict or a regular person.
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
Thanks in advance for your consideration.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
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