Mixed feelings about AA being a cult
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,229
Originally Posted by Kllme 
In my opinion, it would be better if they can drop the whole " Hi I am Betty and I am an alcoholic" Group responds "Hi Betty".... That is just weird. You wouldn't be there if you didn't have a problem with alcohol. Especially, when you are new it is weird.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by endlesspatience
My feeling is that as a system to change your mind about drinking and inspire you to stay sober, AA works well. At least it did for me. As a way of programming you to a fulfilling life, I'm not so sure.
They're pretty clear on the first one......if you're not ready to quit, keep drinking. The book says that directly and indirectly several times. There is no attempt to "recruit" anyone (not everyone IN aa does what the program suggests........as you've experienced directly with your attendance and with the ppl you've encountered in aa) who doesn't already want to quit "for good and for all" but has found they can't seem to pull it off (ie, alcoholics of "our type.")
As for the programming part.... steps 1, 2, 3 speak directly to one's inability to program themselves and the seeking and then reliance upon a God each person's own individual understanding to lead guide them and, eventually, for that person to have a "spiritual awakening" where they're then better equipped to handle life (living in the 4th Dimension stuff).
I used to think it was my "job" to try and get ppl to try AA. I've since learned that such a job was never mine, is futile, and is usually counterproductive to both them and me.
I did my own thing for as long as I did because that's all I was willing to do. I wasn't willing to try anything that didn't make sense to me...wouldn't even TRY it.
Just like in any business in the world, any church in the world, any family in the world, any sports team anywhere in the world, any group anywhere assembled for any purpose........ there are good and bad players, good and bad parents, good and bad teachers, good and bad leaders, good and bad "soldiers." We all bring our own set of things we're good at and things we're bad at. To expect that everything one hears from everyone, especially in AA, to be right...... well it isn't all that reasonable. Plenty of what I hear in meetings, often from ppl with lots of time since their last drink and who've been going to meetings for decades, is so far from real AA it makes my head spin.
AA isn't for everyone, that's for sure. It took me a long time to be willing to give it a shot - perhaps it took precisely what it took for a reason. Early on, I heard what I thought was a lot of instruction on how I was supposed to think/believe and it bothered me. I didn't like being TOLD much of anything, probably the least of which was to abandon my intellect in favor of what someone else thought. That I was hearing it from ppl I didn't necessarily even like let alone respect made it all the more repulsive. (almost every time this came not from a sponsor.......it came from random ppl I sat with at meetings).
What I do with ppl I work with is never (that I'm aware) tell them what to think. It's none of my business. What I try and do is encourage them to try things...... try praying in the morning, try writing a 4 column inventory, try making amends, etc. It's been long known by the ppl with solid recovery in AA that it really doesn't matter what we think.......what matters is what we do. The great analogy is when I'm sick with an illness that penicillin can cure: I don't have to understand the illness, I don't have to understand how penicillin attacks the illness, I don't have to like penicillin, I don't have to want to take it and I don't have to believe it'll work --- but if I TAKE the penicillin, it'll have the positive effect on me regardless of what I think or believe in my brain.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 246
I would say more like a religion than a cult in that there are traditions, dogma, rules, and a feeling that it is the best/only way. But you are free to leave and they don't ask you for your money, which is how i see true cults.
The fundamental premise of turning your life over to a highter power that you have to agree to turn your life over to (but if you actually hear the voice of that higher power telling you what to do after you have done so, they lock you up or put you on meds) and saves some alcoholics and leaves others to wither and die is absolutely ridiculous to me so I can't do the steps.
BUT when i go to an AA meeting and look around to see people working on their own sobriety, truly connecting with each other and reaching out to help others, I think it is beautiful. And there are so many meetings that they are very available when you are in crisis and need them most. Try Lifering if you like the power of a group but want to skip the religion and "only way" stuff.
The fundamental premise of turning your life over to a highter power that you have to agree to turn your life over to (but if you actually hear the voice of that higher power telling you what to do after you have done so, they lock you up or put you on meds) and saves some alcoholics and leaves others to wither and die is absolutely ridiculous to me so I can't do the steps.
BUT when i go to an AA meeting and look around to see people working on their own sobriety, truly connecting with each other and reaching out to help others, I think it is beautiful. And there are so many meetings that they are very available when you are in crisis and need them most. Try Lifering if you like the power of a group but want to skip the religion and "only way" stuff.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Endlesspatience, just remember that most of us formerly dependent on alcohol are now sober without recourse to any formal program. And by most, I mean between 70% and 80% are sober without AA. Most of these 70 or 80% are simply busy now with the rest of their lives, seeking growth and fulfillment much as everyone else is doing.
This program is valuable to many, it has saved lives, it is true. But it is by no means the only means of support available to you. Nor are you destined to fail in your sobriety if you don't go to meetings or choose another type of support. It is only drinking that will do that.
There is much to be said for the company of sane and thoughtful people. I am always honoured by it.
This program is valuable to many, it has saved lives, it is true. But it is by no means the only means of support available to you. Nor are you destined to fail in your sobriety if you don't go to meetings or choose another type of support. It is only drinking that will do that.
There is much to be said for the company of sane and thoughtful people. I am always honoured by it.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
The early meetings had the alcoholic, the spouse and others concerned with the alcoholic. (parents, siblings, children etc)
So they stated their name and primary concern
Hence...... Im xxxxxxx and I'm an alcoholic
The tradition carries on
That's all that is.... No big deal
So they stated their name and primary concern
Hence...... Im xxxxxxx and I'm an alcoholic
The tradition carries on
That's all that is.... No big deal
happy, joyous an free!
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: northeast
Posts: 693
Originally Posted by endlesspatience
So, I now have seven weeks since my last drink and before that I only took a drink once since last August.
It's purely my perspective at the moment and I know my feelings about the group change. I think i'm tempted to step back from AA a little bit at the moment.
It's purely my perspective at the moment and I know my feelings about the group change. I think i'm tempted to step back from AA a little bit at the moment.
it's your program, nobody else's. it took me a long while to trust that concept. once i really embraced that fact, that i am the designer of how i go forward with recovery, i started to get more out of aa.
i've stepped back many times over the years and switched up meetings and always try to take what i need and leave the rest..... aa will always be there, anywhere in the world! which is pretty great. i just make sure i am working my recovery plan/program whether i am going to meetings or not.
this part of your post "As a way of programming you to a fulfilling life" tells me that something clicked with you about recovery - it's not just getting sober. and no, i don't think aa can program this but it laid out some tools for me early on which prompted me to look for more - more ways for me to live that fulfilling life which is definitely uniquely mine...
and honestly, aa is just part of the whole picture, for me. not the whole picture...
best of luck in your sober travels and keep on keeping on!
p.s. thanks for your post!!!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by endlesspatience
I know that from time to time, people on this site debate whether they think AA is a cult. This post kind of relates to that but it's also personal.
So, I now have seven weeks since my last drink and before that I only took a drink once since last August. So that's quite a lot of sober time and a lot of AA meetings.
I want to be clear. AA has been helpful. I have learned a lot and I have made some friendships with supportive people. I've got a sponsor and I'm attempting to do the steps. I have read the Big Book a couple of times, including the stuff at the back about people who recovered.
My feeling is that as a system to change your mind about drinking and inspire you to stay sober, AA works well. At least it did for me. As a way of programming you to a fulfilling life, I'm not so sure.
The last meeting I went to was two days ago and there were a lot of long shares from people with more than ten years sobriety. One of them specifically brought up the subject of whether AA is a cult and of course he denied it is. "No one makes you do anything - it's all suggestions."
I don't really go along with that. The group pressure is strong and although people can't be coerced into sobriety, they are under a lot of pressure to think the AA way. For example, the programme of suggestions in the Big Book is seen as almost a Holy Text. Debate and discussion is not actively encouraged. As one person said on Saturday "I was encouraged to leave my intellect at the door".
It's not the spiritual element of the programme per se that I disagree with. Nor is it the structure of the meetings. The problem in the groups I go to is the dominance of old timers who repeatedly talk about their recovery as a salvation but don't seem to be moving on in other areas of their lives even decades after stopping drinking.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
Of course, this isn't meant as an attack on AA in general. It's purely my perspective at the moment and I know my feelings about the group change. I think i'm tempted to step back from AA a little bit at the moment. Part of me warns that could prelude another relapse. Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
So, I now have seven weeks since my last drink and before that I only took a drink once since last August. So that's quite a lot of sober time and a lot of AA meetings.
I want to be clear. AA has been helpful. I have learned a lot and I have made some friendships with supportive people. I've got a sponsor and I'm attempting to do the steps. I have read the Big Book a couple of times, including the stuff at the back about people who recovered.
My feeling is that as a system to change your mind about drinking and inspire you to stay sober, AA works well. At least it did for me. As a way of programming you to a fulfilling life, I'm not so sure.
The last meeting I went to was two days ago and there were a lot of long shares from people with more than ten years sobriety. One of them specifically brought up the subject of whether AA is a cult and of course he denied it is. "No one makes you do anything - it's all suggestions."
I don't really go along with that. The group pressure is strong and although people can't be coerced into sobriety, they are under a lot of pressure to think the AA way. For example, the programme of suggestions in the Big Book is seen as almost a Holy Text. Debate and discussion is not actively encouraged. As one person said on Saturday "I was encouraged to leave my intellect at the door".
It's not the spiritual element of the programme per se that I disagree with. Nor is it the structure of the meetings. The problem in the groups I go to is the dominance of old timers who repeatedly talk about their recovery as a salvation but don't seem to be moving on in other areas of their lives even decades after stopping drinking.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that people ofter turned to drink because of very disfunctional or unhappy childhoods. They are quite emotionally damaged and therefore cling to the group in a rather needy way - sometimes akin to co-dependency. The other thing is that long term drinking wrecked people's lives so badly that they are still surrounded by a lot of wreckage but because they've stopped drinking, they (quite understandably) focus on staying completely abstinent rather than setting new goals, such as living with integrity or managing relationships better.
Of course, this isn't meant as an attack on AA in general. It's purely my perspective at the moment and I know my feelings about the group change. I think i'm tempted to step back from AA a little bit at the moment. Part of me warns that could prelude another relapse. Another part of me says it would be better to seek out the company of sane, thoughtful people who haven't been affected by alcoholism.
Imo, there's a lot of truth in what you wrote. A lot.
AA isn't perfect nor are the members. However, it's still the best deal in town as far as I'm concerned (and you can't beat the price...)
If I don't like the way a meeting is run or the vibe I just don't go back.
And while I don't mind debating the AA program on-line out in the "real world" I'll go to a different meeting.
Sobriety has given me a full life and I just don't have the emotional energy for any in-house AA drama these days.
p***enger
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 19,042
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
Imo, there's a lot of truth in what you wrote. A lot.
AA isn't perfect nor are the members. However, it's still the best deal in town as far as I'm concerned (and you can't beat the price...)
If I don't like the way a meeting is run or the vibe I just don't go back.
And while I don't mind debating the AA program on-line out in the "real world" I'll go elsewhere. Sobriety has given me a full life and I just don't have the emotional energy for any in-house AA drama these days.
AA isn't perfect nor are the members. However, it's still the best deal in town as far as I'm concerned (and you can't beat the price...)
If I don't like the way a meeting is run or the vibe I just don't go back.
And while I don't mind debating the AA program on-line out in the "real world" I'll go elsewhere. Sobriety has given me a full life and I just don't have the emotional energy for any in-house AA drama these days.
I had an outstanding day today, thanks to AA. Celebrated my 1 year in a room where the total number of sober years celebrated for Feb was 77, had coffee w/my former sponsor, bailed out a fellow who's sick by setting up chairs & cookies in his place, and attended my home group. At my home group, I had a chance to ask a smart & interesting (if slightly intimidating) lady to coffee, and persuade a chronic relapser to take on a service commitment.
People are my problem. Dealing with people sober is like trying to stand on my head and play the violin and keep my hair in place, all at the same time. AA is helping me learn how to deal with people, among a bunch of misfits who are as bad at it as I am. AA's rituals are our crutches and cheat sheets for life, because we're disorderly and destructive left to our own devices. I admit that. I'm Snarkbunny, & I'm an alcoholic.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
Originally Posted by DayTrader
What I do with ppl I work with is never (that I'm aware) tell them what to think. It's none of my business. What I try and do is encourage them to try things...... try praying in the morning, try writing a 4 column inventory, try making amends, etc. It's been long known by the ppl with solid recovery in AA that it really doesn't matter what we think.......what matters is what we do. The great analogy is when I'm sick with an illness that penicillin can cure: I don't have to understand the illness, I don't have to understand how penicillin attacks the illness, I don't have to like penicillin, I don't have to want to take it and I don't have to believe it'll work --- but if I TAKE the penicillin, it'll have the positive effect on me regardless of what I think or believe in my brain.
You know by now what AA is about. If it isn't for you find something else and do that.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
Im in the camp of the OP a bit also, but ask myself...if AA is a cult, what is their agenda? Propaghanda is forbidden. Donations are capped at 5k a year. There is no mention of Mohammad, Jesus, Buddha or any other earthly deity or messiah. The sinister motive seems to be that the fellowship wants to interfere with my drinking! I can live with that
Just focus on the good things about AA and the fellowship for now. (That was written for my own benefit as much as for others who feel the cultish elements of AA)
Just focus on the good things about AA and the fellowship for now. (That was written for my own benefit as much as for others who feel the cultish elements of AA)
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
The sinister motive seems to be that the fellowship wants to interfere with my drinking!
Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: dallas tx
Posts: 24
If alcoholism is really a disease then why is the most prescribed treatment faith healing? Can you imagine a doctor telling someone with cancer, or diabetes, or aids to "turn it over to a higher power?" When addiction treatment gets out of the dark ages we will see better than 5% recovery rates.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Been attending AA for years
there is a small cult element there
but, I don't hang out with those ones
such as
making up my own higher power
that's crazy
there is only One up there
and I didn't make Him up
Mountainman
there is a small cult element there
but, I don't hang out with those ones
such as
making up my own higher power
that's crazy
there is only One up there
and I didn't make Him up
Mountainman
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
Originally Posted by lacey424
If alcoholism is really a disease then why is the most prescribed treatment faith healing? Can you imagine a doctor telling someone with cancer, or diabetes, or aids to "turn it over to a higher power?" When addiction treatment gets out of the dark ages we will see better than 5% recovery rates.
D
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
AA may not be a cult but there are people in it who act like it is.
When I first started, I was asked to break off friendships with anyone not in the program. I was told I would be expected to do chores for my sponsor. Others were asked to change the colors that they wore. They were asked to quit jobs. They were asked to move. All of this for no other reason than that it would prove they were willing.
I and others were ostracized for not complying with these suggestions.
This was cult-like regimentation. As far as I and others knew, this was what AA was like. On SR I have since learned this type of thing is not required or encouraged by AA. But if you had asked me a few years ago if AA was a cult, I would have said yes--not because it is, but because the people I encountered in the program used it as their own personal cult.
When I first started, I was asked to break off friendships with anyone not in the program. I was told I would be expected to do chores for my sponsor. Others were asked to change the colors that they wore. They were asked to quit jobs. They were asked to move. All of this for no other reason than that it would prove they were willing.
I and others were ostracized for not complying with these suggestions.
This was cult-like regimentation. As far as I and others knew, this was what AA was like. On SR I have since learned this type of thing is not required or encouraged by AA. But if you had asked me a few years ago if AA was a cult, I would have said yes--not because it is, but because the people I encountered in the program used it as their own personal cult.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Central America/Florida USA
Posts: 4,064
People who have experience recovering from alcoholism are very valuable to anyone who is new in the game. You don't have to find them at AA if you don't want to. Some people like Rational Recovery. Some people go to rehab and join groups. Many others lean on online resources, SR is a nice forum that encourages all kinds of input.
In my case, it took me a while to get out of the woods and I am thankful for the support I received from all of the resources listed above. It can be fun to pick apart recovery methods, and AA is an easy target for many reasons. I reckon the discussion is a nice distraction, but be careful you don't lose sight of the forest while you are examining the bark on every tree.
In my case, it took me a while to get out of the woods and I am thankful for the support I received from all of the resources listed above. It can be fun to pick apart recovery methods, and AA is an easy target for many reasons. I reckon the discussion is a nice distraction, but be careful you don't lose sight of the forest while you are examining the bark on every tree.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by lacey424
If alcoholism is really a disease then why is the most prescribed treatment faith healing? Can you imagine a doctor telling someone with cancer, or diabetes, or aids to "turn it over to a higher power?" When addiction treatment gets out of the dark ages we will see better than 5% recovery rates.
You're statement is completely asinine. Comparing alcoholism to cancer..... Wow....
But I did turn treatment of cancer over to two higher powers- God and the doctors.
So, do tell us what is necessary to get out of the dark ages.
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