Hawks

I think its important to frame the Lsd stuff up correctly.

It was pharmaceutical grade stuff, the finest quality that us govt science could make and it was perfectly legal at the time.

It was administered in controlled doses and in a controlled setting by the same scientists.

People tend to run around spouting about it like BW was taking bathtub acid and scoring the stuff from some criminal crackpot element.

Which wasn't the case at all.

BW took it to try and recreate his white light spiritual experience.

The scientific community was also interested in a recreation of his experience.

There are several videos on YouTube of sisimilar experimental procedures conducted on people who were psychologically evaluated before participating in the trials.

That's all they were.

Scientific research and experiment.

Having taken several doses myself, of high quality stuff, I can see why BW liked it so much.

So did many of the ordinary folk who participated in the trials.

It has since been demonised as a drug, due to a ton of crazy publicity and press.

Mdma has its roots in psychiatry too.

awuh1

Don and I have exchanged some correspondence. He's a good guy who's interested in the truth.


Bill's use of LSD took place in the late 50's and early 60's, before the substance was illegal. It was done under the care of physicians who were working on the possibility of using it to benefit alcoholics who were deemed "hopeless". Bill's motivation for use was not pleasure or self gratification. He did it because he was a pioneer. He was seeking a way for alcoholics to have a spiritual experience that they did not seem to be able get in any other way.


It's easy to take jabs at Bill for this. This judgment typically comes through the lens of historical hindsight that sees Bills use of the drug in the context of the later 1960's countercultural revolution. That's not the context in which he took it. In my view this criticism is simplistic. It's a distortion of both context and his motivation for taking the drug.

Spacegoat

Hello men.

Oh I do know this, I have done a bit of research in this area.

Thats the part I find most fascinating, how LSD was viewed as the biggest breakthrough in psychiatry at the time, and how those guys were looking to use it to save hopeless alcoholics and the like. I'm all for that.

I've done it a few times myself, and it was certainly not shoddy in terms of quality. I wasn't taking it with a view to quit drinking but that was definitely a side effect for a while afterwards and overall that experience and similar ones have greatly improved my depression and outlook on life, even to this day. I'm not saying anything negative about Bill W or the compound, I believe it's a noble thing they were doing.

Spacegoat

Although it can be quite a confusing subject initially, if that makes any sense.

But certainly- no criticism here and I haven't read that book either. It's just something I stumbled upon today.

Ken33xx

The author of "My Name is Bill" account of BW LSD use and/or of psychiatry and niacin weren`t criticisms but to point out his ongoing quest of spirituality and relief from depression.

Ken33xx

Which makes sense when you consider BW was tripping on belladonna and barbiturates when he had this white light spiritual experience.

(My Name is Bill pg. 117-118)
Dr. Silkworth gave BW belladonna and barbiturates and as the alcohol wore off, Bill sank into a deep depression. Ebby Thacher visited him again and went over the points from the Oxford group. Bill listened but the darkness of his mood seem to close in on him. He had reached some kind of bottom. "If there be a God, let him show himself!" he cried. The response was amazing, suddenly my room blazed with an indescribable white light. I was seized with an ecstasy beyond description. Then, seen in the mind's eyes, there was a mountain. I stood upon its summit where a great wind blew. Then came the blazing thought, "You are a free man."

freshstart57

Bill W.'s paternal grandfather had one of those too, according to legend and to Dick B., as he explains in his book, 'The Conversion of Bill W: The Creator's Role in Early AA'.
Bill really learned about this conversion stuff from his Mom.

Ken33xx

Well, however it came about BW was likely tripping his balls off on a belladonna hallucination it occurred.

Which isn't a bad thing mind you.

As BW never had a drink again after that.

Hawks

That's one way to look at it.

Having had a conversion / spiritual experience myself, nine months dry and no drugs what so ever in my system for years, I know what BW had.

bills prayer was "if there's a God, show yourself " shouted quite angrily from his hospital bed.

Not much of a prayer really, but that triggered his experience.

Not sure how shouting that all of a sudden brought hallucinations and a rush of drugs, but I guess that's a comforting rationalization for many folk who haven't had any experience along those lines.

Ken33xx

BW very likely was already tripping when he shouted. And the fact Ebby Thacher was present and going over the points from the Oxford group might have helped shape the kind of high (or spiritual experience) BW had.

You say you had your spiritual awakening cold sober? So did I. The desire to drink left me after my first meeting.

My point is be it a belladonna induced hallucination, a walk to the train station after a meeting or whatever you were doing it's all good. None of us have had a drink since.

The more I read about BW the more I tend to believed he would have encouraged members to find their own way within AA. (Which doesn't necessarily advocate tripping on hallucinates although BW did that for a while)

For example had the information today been available back then I doubt BW would have frowned about anti-depression medication given his life-long battle with the illness.

In fact, he probably would have been the first in line.

Imo, the genius of BW had little to do with the BB, 12-steps and other tools of the program and everything to do with the way AA was setup. No dues, fees, or leaders and the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking are brilliant. Without such insight AA likely would have been marginalized decades ago.

awuh1

Ken, I believe you would do well to investigate a little more before you assume that "BW was very likely already tripping when he shouted". It seems you are assuming that his spiritual experience was induced by belladonna. If you investigate a bit more I believe you will reach a different conclusion.

Belladonna is a hallucinogen, but it is not a psychedelic. It is in a class of hallucinogens referred to as "deliriants". It is not the type of hallucinogen that would give rise to the sort of organized and pleasant spiritual experience Bill described. Deleriants produce confusion, and often their effects are quite unpleasant.

I suggest you read the pdf document you can get in the link below. It's likely the best information you will currently find on this subject.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...84349003,d.cGU

Ken33xx

Thank you for the link. Yes, I was aware that bellanonna can make you hear/feel disturbing and unpleasant hallucinations which might explain why BW shouted. But was BW spiritual awakening the product of a belladonna hallucination shortly after his discussions with his friend Ebby Thacher? Could it have been incited by his alcohol withdrawal symptoms? Or did something else happen to him that science cannot explain?

In the end, such pharmacological, physical or spiritual parsing hardly matters.

Or as BW might say if he were around today: It’s what you believe that counts.

awuh1

Ken, I think it is often difficult for people who have never had anything like this sort of spiritual experience to understand it, or to even give it any credibility. Like you, they continue to fall back on explanations that make sense to them, and in order to do this they draw on their own personal experience. This is only natural.

Nevertheless I'm often annoyed by this, and at the same time I'm forced to remember exactly what I thought of the accounts of these sorts of spiritual experiences before I had one of my own. Prior to my experience I placed these accounts into the realm of fairy tales, hallucinations, delusions and the like. In my former view, people who had them were either weak-minded, uneducated, psychotic, attention seeking frauds, or some combination of the above.

Then I had one myself, and I knew they could be real. I knew it beyond any shadow of a doubt.

So I cannot blame you for not being able to relate to these sorts of experiences. For that matter I don't even blame you for not giving them any credibility. After all, you've never had one.

Still, I would not hold onto the possibility that Bill's experience was a belladonna induced hallucination. It just does not make sense pharmacologically.

BTW, I think the pharmacological, physical and spiritual parsing really does matter. In fact I think it matters a great deal. But at the same time, I understand your point of view.

Ken33xx

I would consider what happened as valid a spiritual awaking as anything BW might have experienced:

When I left my first AA meeting and walking to the train station I felt I didn’t need to drink anymore and the obsession was lifted. I haven`t had a drink since. Straight up no bs. Not a drop.



Sure it does. I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all to suggest BW experience may well have been directly related to being under the influence of belladonna/chat with ET.

You posted a link in which the author (supporting) explained what happened on that faithful day. Fair enough. However, I can also find a link which provides contradictory info:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-...tml#belladonna

What I wanted was unbiased information in which a belladonna trip can be explained in simple terms and I think I found one:
Belladonna and its uses

A belladonna trip apparently starts out with pleasant hypnotic and "visionary" effects.

Which might explain what happened to BW.


Later effects during the trip, however, include blurred vision with unpleasant light-sensitivity, dry mouth and incoherent babbling. The general effect of this combination is one of extreme confusion, panic and anxiety.

BW was under the care of a doctor so this (effects of a bad trip) was likely taken into consideration and the dosage monitored.


Permanent damage to the eyes may result, as may permanent brain damage. The effects of an overdose include vomiting and convulsions leading to collapse, heart failure and death. Other effects of the plant are to dry up mucous membranes and inhibit secretions (not an aphrodisiac, presumably!) and as a muscle relaxant.

Again the drug was taken under the care of a doctor.


There's just no getting around the fact BW was high when his spiritual experience took place. How high? What kind of high? Whose to say?

But I don't think it's unfair to suggest the drug might very well have played in his experience. (Me? I was stone cold sober when the desire to drink was lifted.)

Actually, the more I read about BW the more I admire him.

I don't believe there's anything wrong with pointing out he could have been as high as a kite while E. Thacher was going on about the Oxford group.

On the other hand if anyone wants to believe it was God and not the drugs speaking to BW I'm certainly cool with that too.

Hawks

I suspected you'd been hanging with orange and the crew Ken.

Ever read the fable about the fox and the grapes?

Your experience has lead you to not drink again, and 20 odd years later you're hanging with orange and ranting on about your doubts about Bills experience.

Bills lead him to found the very organisation that saved your life and the life of millions of others.

I think one experience was just a little more profound than the other.

The results of both experiences speak for themselves don't they?

awuh1

I did a quick internet search but I was unable to find any other reference to positive hallucinatory effects from belladonna. But lets just assume for now that early positive effects of the drug are possible. The web page which you site goes on to state "Later effects during the trip, however, include blurred vision with unpleasant light-sensitivity, dry mouth and incoherent babbling. The general effect of this combination is one of extreme confusion, panic and anxiety." This part (which you did not site in your post above) is exactly the opposite of Bill's experience.

In fact, the net effect of Bill's experience was so profoundly positive that it changed his entire life.

Attributing Bill's 1934 spiritual experience to belladonna remains pharmacologically implausible. It does not fit the facts. I do however, find it interesting that you still believe the drug might provide an explanation of his experience.

With regard for the search for the truth in what you describe as "biased" sources, I guess I'll have to go with the distinguished university professor rather than agent orange.

Boleo

I have had many "Spiritual Experiences". Some were drug induced. Others were sensory deprivation induced. Still others were Near-Death-Experiences.

The "Spiritual Awakening" that I had that emancipated from my obsession to drink, was like no other. It made absolutely no sense to me at the time because it was contradictory to everything that I wanted/decided/chose at that moment. I was 5 months sober at the time. I had done the 12 steps about 1 year prior to this event.

I now know the the experience was somehow triggered/invoked by the greatest struggle/surrender cycle of my entire life. I had been struggling to learn how to get sober for years and after countless failures - I had given up entirely. In Big Book words I "ceased fighting anything or anyone - even alcohol".

For anyone to attempt to understand a completely subjective "experience" such as that, would be nothing but speculation and conjecture. It is a "experience" that has to be lived before it can even begin to make sense. And even then, it is an experience so esoteric, that rocket science is outright mundane by comparison.

When it comes to significant life events such as this; Experience isn't everything - It's the only thing.

CousinA

So I had a few minutes to spare, did the Google and found this interestin FWIW: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/he...runk.html?_r=0

I think the only person who can speak for Bill's experience would have been Bill and all any of us cab do is share ours. Some have had the sudden white light conversion, some like me have had the educational variety described in the appendix. Whatevs. One doesn't negate the other. What I love about AA is none of us have to explain or defend our experience.

Cheers.


-allan

Ken33xx

I'm not anti-AA/BW and don't hang out at that site.


Yes, but his trip was under the supervision of a doctor. Not recreational. The negative side effects had to have been taken into consideration.


Yes, I don't think an unreasonable position. Again, the drug would never have been administered if there were risks of a serious side effects esp. not in BW condition.



What I was looking for was information on the drug non-related to BW and without a side to take. Almost everything I found tells me belladonna is dangerous. Yet, this isn't always the case and the fact the drug was administrated under a doctors care has to be taken into consideration.

Hawks

Well this is just degenerating into a whole lot of

"Yes.... But"

Later