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making ammends?

Old 10-16-2014, 03:03 PM
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zjw
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making ammends?

so in the course of discusing something else with my wife she mentioned that she does believe one of the steps is to make ammends isnt it? (for the record she was not holding it over my head) I replied yes and its unforgiveable what i did it was awful and sadly I'd probably not tolerate the same from someone else. As i broke down in tears. she said yeah you probably wouldnt and wanted to discuss it futher and I said enough I dont want to discuss this. its just simply too painful my kids where also present.

I probably screwed this up talk about feeling ashamed. i feel like a bum and while i do want to make ammends at 3+ years sobriety I have not and thats pathetic and i know it. Let the mud fly *sigh*
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:13 PM
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I'm sorry you're struggling.

I hope you will find a way to forgive yourself. We have been given grace. It is yours for the taking.

((hug))
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:14 PM
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No mud here

If you're in AA, amends is one of the last steps. There's good reason for that. It's a difficult process.

Making amends is more than an apology -- Hazelden

if you're not in AA it's just as difficult
I don't think it's the kind of thing you bring up at the kitchen table with the kids around.

I do think you need to clear the air with your wife tho?

D
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:19 PM
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yeah I know dee but from my view what i did was unforgiveable nothing i could ever say would be acceptable. She might throw it in my face? tho she has not in all these years go figure... but words mean nothing saying sorry wtf for? I know i'm sick enough i could do that to her all over again even worse the next go around and not think twice once the claws of the disease are sunken deep back in me.

rather then make ammends i've chosen to sober up be a better father husband person etc.. i figure actions have more weight then any words i could ever throw at it.

but yeah it doesnt hange the fact that its clearly not a topic i want to even discuss i just cant i got too choked up and have been cryen since.

sure i feel sorry but what does it matter the proof is in the pudding i'm sober now etc.. i dunno how to handle this properly. i've stuffed this issue in a dark corner. its crazy i can apologize for just about anything but this? like i said it just seems unforgiveable.
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:27 PM
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I think like Bimini suggests you might want to look at why you can't forgive yourself, zjw.

We are not simply the sum total of our past actions - we're much more than that
I was sick...and then I got well, y'know?

If you can't face your past and there's a great knot of guilt shame and whatever else there...that to me would be something my addiction would be working on day and night to weaken me....

I faced myself at my worst by looking back when I was at my best. It was a protracted process rather like peeling an onion and yeah, it was painful - but it didn't break me...

I forgave myself, I felt a great sense of peace, and I moved on to the rest of my life

as for saying sorry...it's not really about that at all...or more accurately it's more than that. The link I posted up above explained it better than I could.

D
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:31 PM
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We are not simply the sum total of our past actions - we're much more than that
I was sick...and then I got well, y'know?

If you can't face your past and there's a great knot of guilt shame and whatever else there...that to me would be something my addiction would be working on day and night to weaken me....

I faced myself at my worst by looking back when I was at my best. It was a protracted process rather like peeling an onion and yeah, it was painful - but it didn't break me...

I forgave myself, I felt a great sense of peace, and I moved on to the rest of my life
I think about it this way. I dont hang on to it. I've put it to bed etc.. its in the past i leave it there. But yeah obviously there is some kind of issue still isnt htere? If i think about it the reality is my life is rediculously better now then it was when i drank. So i think back on all the things that made it so bad and I could rattle of a long list of all the stuff thats my falt directly or indirectly due to my drinking and nonsense.

when bimini mentioned forging myself the first thing to pop into my mind is i could never forgive my stepfather for the same kinda nonsense so how then could I ever forgive myself? Plenty have told me over the years I should forgive him and I still cant seem to find it in myself to do so. But this isnt about him that just popped into my head.

the fact that I could not even discuss it with her urks me I feel like i missed an opportunity but i just could not go there at that moment.
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:35 PM
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The Shack was a wonderful book for me to read zjw.

“Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......”
― Wm. Paul Young, The Shack: Where Tragedy Confronts Eternity
I had hold of a *lot* of people's throats...not least my own...

I had to let go to move on.

D
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:36 PM
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I certainly have done a thing or seventy that I am not proud of. I mostly hurt myself though. Some things are done out of pain or addiction or other unhealthy moments in our lives. Some things I did were for no good reason other than selfishness.

I think in order to forgive myself I had to become a different type of person, more mindful and more sensitive to others. I have done things to people they did not deserve. I have also had things done to me I didn't deserve. It is what it is and the past is the past. I have to change and move forward. If I try to do the right thing, I'm not adding to my list. The things that are in the past have to stay there. "Accept the things I cannot change."
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:44 PM
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It could be argued that 3 years sobriety is a good start to making amends.
You're ashamed.
I'm ashamed of the things I did.

I don't do AA, but surely making amends doesn't mean that you have to beat yourself up?
Can't you do it slowly and at a pace that works for you both.
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:51 PM
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yeah recklesseric my hope at this pont is that the ice has at least the ice has been broken i wonder if she realizes this or not....

Biminiblue selfishness is something i find myself always checking myself on. I've always felt i' not selfish at all but from what i've read my addiction says otherwise. Now that i'm sober i constantly find myself talking about me and I think am i being selfish? constantly checking this aspect. I also dont want to be dragged through the mud for something I"m not quilty of its easy to twist things around and guilt someone for somthing that is not true sometimes it can be hard to know the difference when your the one being accused of being selfish hence why I tend to check this trait a lot in myself.
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Old 10-16-2014, 04:00 PM
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Is your wife getting any help for herself? Obviously it won't go well if you suggest it, but we all need help unraveling who's issues are who's.

Make your amends however you see fit - as long as you are sincere, actions will speak louder than words.
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Old 10-16-2014, 04:27 PM
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Is your wife getting any help for herself? Obviously it won't go well if you suggest it, but we all need help unraveling who's issues are who's.

Make your amends however you see fit - as long as you are sincere, actions will speak louder than words.
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I think she could about my nonsense and other stuff but htats her choice to discover or not etc... I dont want to judge her like that.

Lucky for me my antics could have been worse. there are a LOT of stories considerably worse then mine and thank god I broke free from the claws of it before it got worse then it already was.
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Old 10-16-2014, 05:12 PM
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Being sober for 3 years in and of itself is a form of amends. Be proud of that.
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Old 10-16-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by zjw View Post
...but words mean nothing saying sorry wtf for? I know i'm sick enough i could do that to her all over again even worse the next go around and not think twice once the claws of the disease are sunken deep back in me.

Perhaps think about seeing a marriage councilor and discussing your amend there so you'll be in a in neutral space.

I grew up in a household where apologizes/saying sorry meant nothing and these days a big believer of living amends. Nobody wanted to hear me say sorry esp. not my wife. What she rightfully wanted was a change in my behavior which she got.

You've got three years sober and as long as you stay sober you're in a position to think your actions through before say putting your marriage at risk.
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:19 PM
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The steps are in order for a reason. By working with a sponsor you will learn that the 8th and 9th steps are a natural and necessary part of your recovery. Hopefully by the time you are on these steps you have forgiven yourself and are now righting as many of the wrongs you can.

Before I would worry about the 8th and 9th I would get a sponsor and work step one
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:43 PM
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isn't part of amends listening to the other person about how our/your action impacted?

wouldn't giving your wife the space and time to say her piece be a necessary part?
wouldn't it be necessary for you/us to hear it without arguing about it?

maybe set aside a time that's mutually convenient without kids around and tell her the amends you're making (being sober and treating her 'better') and accept what she might need to say?
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:31 PM
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Maybe you continued a chain of some kind.

It sounds like something is eating you up & eating you up quite badly.

Amends can mean all sorts of things ..... saying sorry, staying sober, treating people lovingly.

It can also mean taking action, therapy maybe ? ....... to ensure that the root cause of the problem is treated and that you are doing everything in your power to ensure it won't happen again ...... breaking the chain for good ... perhaps ? That can be the greatest amends ever.

It is hard to wish away in our own heads .... guilt, remorse, shame etc etc.

I'm no huge fan of the Catholic religion ..... but I do think they got the confession thing right.
Which they have been doing for centuries ... well before there were therapists & councillors .... luckily you can go to any number of professionals these days.

The one thing amends should never be & that is hurting anyone else for your own comfort.

Get it all out to someone who will be unaffected like a therapist & then make the living amends by being a better person in your family.

Best of luck with it ... sincerely
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:23 PM
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Hi zjw.

Making amends is all about making things right for ourselves regardless of the responses we get. It's not for us to decide whether or not what we've done to others is unforgivable or not, anymore than it's up to us to decide whether or not our help, support and any other acts of generosity on our part are meaningful for those we try to help.

Originally Posted by zjw View Post
I also dont want to be dragged through the mud for something I"m not quilty of its easy to twist things around and guilt someone for somthing that is not true sometimes it can be hard to know the difference when your the one being accused of being selfish hence why I tend to check this trait a lot in myself.
You mentioned in your OP that you're concerned that your wife might throw in your face the things you discuss with her while making amends, even though you stated that this has never been the case with her.

You also commented that you suffered from your stepfather's behavior, and that you still experience what he did as unforgivable to you, that you cannot bring yourself to forgive him and, according to your logic, that this makes it impossible for you to forgive yourself. And vice versa.

One of the many definitions of 'forgiveness' is ceasing to harbor resentments. I and many others would argue that the ability to forgive is a significant indicator for psychological health. This ability is also, I believe, a reliable measure of happiness.

There are many reasons why we cannot or will not forgive other people's actions or, put another way, why we hold grudges...Protection against future pain and disappointment, a sense of superiority that appears to strengthen self-esteem (which is truly only temporary), or the type of comfort that often comes with "being right."

What I'm suggesting is that the pain you suffered from your stepfather in part explains the extreme difficulty that you experience in thinking about or discussing your own drinking behaviors which, in turn, invites an emotional return to your earlier suffering. The more you associate your past with your present, the less able you will be to heal. Holding onto resentments inhibits personal growth and promotes negativity. How can the kind of ongoing pain that you've describe offer anything positive for you and for your life?

Also bear in mind that loving relationships in the present can help in healing the hurt of earlier relationships while also nurturing individual growth and a general sense of well-being. This is true for everyone. As things now stand, you're denying yourself and your wife deeper intimacy and potentially greater pleasure down the line due to your anticipation of a type of pain that is overburdened with the events of your past.

I see all that's happened with you lately as providing a tremendous opportunity on your part. With regard to this issue, what would you say to your wife were you to know that you're going to die tomorrow?
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:35 AM
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I'm sorry you're hurting, zjw. Nothing is unforgivable. As one or two others mentioned, have you thought about counseling? For you, for both of you? A good counselor could provide you with the tools and space to dig gently into some of these issues and begin healing them.

You're worth it.
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Old 10-17-2014, 05:46 AM
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isn't part of amends listening to the other person about how our/your action impacted?

wouldn't giving your wife the space and time to say her piece be a necessary part?
wouldn't it be necessary for you/us to hear it without arguing about it?

maybe set aside a time that's mutually convenient without kids around and tell her the amends you're making (being sober and treating her 'better') and accept what she might need to say?
lol shes said it believe me shes said her piece more times then I can count. She has yet to really drag me through the mud over my drinking but while i drank she did upon occaision rightly so too. She's dragged me through the mud about other things sometimes jokingly sometimes not. Dont get me wrong shes not some kind of a monster etc.. and I'll gladly endure the drag when its deserved and yeah its really deserved this go around BUT the kicker is I drag myself through the mud enough as it is i have enough of my own shame etc.. I dont want to be dragged again through it by anyone i do a good enough job of that myself. Of course others dont know that i guess.

EndgameNYC your right and the issues with my stepfather are so stinking old but they still sting just as bad if not worse now then they did then. In my drinking days I hit a point in the end where I looked int he mirror and saw his face and that horrified me.

Many have told me to forgive him. pray about it etc.. maybe I have ? and it still hurts? Maybe I have not? When dee posted the piece about having someone by there throat i thought yeah i guess i do still have him by his throat. Lucky for us we live very far from each other and have not spoken or seen each other in almost 20 years. Him walking out on the family was the best thing he coulda ever done. He did manage to do that for us.

When i think about his situation from the perspective of he was clearly a sick person not sane and suffering from many various ailments. I can then have some sympathy compation even wanna extend a helping hand (tho i know he'd yank me in and drown me) but from that perspective what he did seems very forgiveable. he's sick he needs help its not exactly his fault he's so wacked I feel bad for him.

The reality is on the surface i tend to just simply thing how much of a monster he was without giving it further thought.

I luckily dont think i ever hit lows anywhere near the kinda lows he hit. My wife just doesnt deserve someone who selfishly drank like a fish night after night for 13 years of our marriage falling down drunk barfing all over etc.. She should not have had to tolerate that. She deserves better. It was disrespectful for me to behave like that for all those years despite any excuse i might have it was not the right thing to do.
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