Grungehead

I disagree -- the person convicted of the crime is facing a sentence of jail time. The judge then offers that person an alternative to jail which gives them a choice. "My hat, my good man (to the bailiff) if you please" is not an option. If it is unconstitutional to "mandate" offenders to AA and the normal sentence is jail time, then that is what the judge should sentence them to with no option of "door number 2".

matt4x4

You can choose to do the jail time, that is always an option no matter what.

On another note, I was at a meeting in a large metropolitan area and low-and-behold a couple Sheriffs where in the room with a few women wearing prison greys.

dwtbd

Gh
In one sense I agree, no door number two.
That comes from a stance that sees criminal punishment in a punitive and retributionary light.
Continuing this debate I think would bring it in the light of arguing the effectiveness of AA in particular and the idea of treatment in general , which I think would run afoul of the spirit of the rules of the forums.

Grungehead

Yeah I thought about it after I posted and I can understand the argument that when the judge offers treatment as an alternative to jail why does it have to be AA? I assume it's because A) it's the most well known and widely available recovery method, and possibly more important is B) it is free and doesn't cost the city, county, state anything to send an offender to AA versus providing rehab/treatment services.

matt4x4

I guess on another note we are talking about the American system, where it is much harsher on the punishment of minor crimes.

whalebelow

Some people will go to great lengths to avoid the term alcoholic.

Drink themselves to death, suicide, years in prison possibly.

The denial is truly astonishing.

I think, seek help or jail, is reasonable. AA is not religious, that is just an avoidance tactic by those who will not face up to them selves.

Society deserves protection from mentally impaired & alcohol impaired people who have their heads squarely up their own backside.

matt4x4

.....What about drug impaired people?

whalebelow

I don't know... So many different drugs. Many are relatively harmless to society as a whole.

Pot smokers don't tend to crash and bash, ectasy same thing.

The drug issues are so multi faceted.

Ice, pcp, amphetamines abuse can cause society a lot of issues when people eventually become mentally impaired, psychosis and paranoia etc.

So complicated though, it deserves it's own thread

silentrun

My uncle was court ordered in his early 20's after he got in trouble. He is almost 70 and hasn't drank since. My brother has been court ordered multiple times and drank the whole time he went. The only time anyone is able to get him not to drink is if he has court ordered pee tests and he knows if he fails it he goes to jail. Worked for my uncle but not my brother. Why AA though? Is there no choice between different programs? Can it be jail or choose from other sobriety groups?
Isn't the real complaint that AA is a religious based program so people are being forced to participate in a religion?
OK I am just going to throw this in here and back away slowly.
The Courts, AA and Religion | AA Agnostica

freshstart57

It doesn't matter what you or I think about AA. The point here is that the legal system does not agree with us. AA IS religious, according to Courts of Appeal from the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th Circuits. Court mandated attendance, which means go to AA or go to jail, has been found to violate first amendment rights.

"It is beyond dispute that, at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise." This has been found to include government coercion to attend AA.

Gottalife

Over here a huge proportion of our prison population comprises the mentally ill, sufferes of various drug addictions, and alcoholics. The metally ill, in the past, were often confined in institutions or sheltered accomodation but the practice now is to place them out in the community, where many are unable to cope.

There used to be a good range of government funded programmes for the treatment of alcoholics and addicts, and easy access to detox. Poor success rates and high costs, along with complicated privacy laws have meant these services and cooperation with community groups has been tightly curtailed.

My view is that many who are in prison are suffering either mental illness, or the illness of addiction, and prison is not helpful to either group. There is a growing awareness that this needs to change and better services need to be offered.

Of course, if you believe that alcoholism and addiction are just lifestyle choices, then I suppose the solution would be to lock em up and throw away the key. When they get out, they nearly always drink/use again, and end up back in prison, perhaps having injured or killed an innocent person on the way, so releasing them into the community seems risky at best.

Mountainmanbob

I have been forced to AA more than once on a court slip
several times stayed sober for a good amount of time

I have went to AA on my own
several times stayed sober for a good amount of time

I enjoy seeing court slippers in our meetings
and for many it is the beginning of a sober journey

and then again for other court slippers maybe not
but, there is one thing that I have seen played out many times
the seed was planted
thousands have returned to AA later on in life with a true desire to stay sober

MM

whalebelow

That's a shame then.

Maybe Rational Recovery should be added along with AA.

Maybe they need to order people who won't go to AA or RR to see a proctologist.

tomsteve

so, theres someone who committed and offense and the court thinks theres an alcohol problem, which with the amount of alcohol related offenses the courts see, I feel they have somewhat of a notion of who has an alcohol/drug problem.
other than ordering AA or other treatment, what alternatives do people suggest? should the courts just fine them and send them back on the streets? lock em up?

TSDD

Well, I went to my first AA meeting at the behest of the department of corrections. I'd hate to think where my life would be if I hadn't been introduced to it that way... not like any of my family or peers would have ever pointed me in that direction.

That being said, I've also seen more than a few groups torn apart by being overly flooded with a bunch of people who really don't want to be there. I can see where it's a hot subject, but I know myself and quite a few of my good sober friends were directed to the fellowship through the courts so it has definitely saved some lives.

Mountainmanbob

you are right on there tomsteve

so many that I know are blessed that they were sent to AA on a (court slip)
for some actually got and stayed sober
I know of many families that were saved
due to the courts forcing a family member into AA

does it work for all ? of course not
but, does it work for a few -- yes

if just one would not have to suffer such as I did

MM

FeenixxRising

The choice should be jail or AA, SMART, LifeRing, SOS, inpatient or outpatient treatment etc.

mfanch

Around here the jails/prisons/charm school's all have AA meetings.

In my homegroup, via group conscious, we sign mandatory slips before the meeting begins (first name siggy only) that way they are free to leave if they don't really want to be there.

FeenixxRising

Five years in AA or an extra five months in jail? This guy chose jail:

"An early release would have meant that Dye could have gone home to his family and work, but Whitney said that freedom would come with rules. Dye would not be allowed to possess or consume alcohol for the next five years. He wouldn’t be allowed inside stores or restaurants that sold alcohol. He would have to go to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings every day for six months and then three times a week for the following 4 1/2 years."

I have almost no sympathy for this man, but I would have made the same decision. Five years in AA is a long time, and any violation during that period could have easily sent him back to prison. I wouldn't want the court looking over my shoulder for that length of time.

Westerville man picks prison over help for his drinking | The Columbus Dispatch

dwtbd

The comments section of that link demonstrates the double edged sword of the disease model of addiction. For those with the disease there is little or no chance of a cure. Most of the comments condemn the man's future based on his past and they feel this is the way to view alcoholics. Sad really, I know accepting that mode of thought kept me from attempting recovery for a long time.