jsprplc2006

I like the idea of having a group of people with common experiences I can talk to about alcohol and recovery, and in my area AA is the only thing that seems to provide that easily.

However, I'm a very scientific minded person, and I disagree with many aspects of how "12 step programs" are structured, and the only thing that will change my mind about these programs is cold, hard evidence. However, I know that many people (not just at AA) think that anecdotes - or the fact that AA has helped *some* people - represent evidence, which isn't acceptable to me, or to science.

What's the environment like at these meetings? Are members receptive to non-traditional (for AA) viewpoints, or do they just pound the Big Book like a bible and insist that whoever disagrees with the 12 steps is "in denial"?

caboblanco

lol

jsprplc2006

Please elaborate...

caboblanco

if you go to AA the thing that's good about it..the support. wont last last long as you will have to get a sponsor and do the steps..if you don't like your wonderful sponsor or the steps sent to us from God. above.well your s out of luck really.unless you want to go to all different meetings all the time which some people do..

desypete

it all depends what area or country your in
in the uk many people myself inclued wouldnt throw a big book at you or ram home 12 steps in the meetings even though i use them both

the meetings are for drunks to come and share there experience all experience, strength and hope with each other

many will speak of the steps and how they have helped them, other might be hung over on big book quotes but most of the members talk about were they have come from and what its like today

if your lucky you will find these meetings in your area so give them a try and see what you think
however there are meetings that are aimed at 12 steps and the book and meetings that are full of god worshipers who do nothing else in there meetings but talk about god and the steps so i dont see these types of meeting would be of help to you but who knows ? you might like them, i know for me i give them a wide berth

there are plenty of atheists in aa so you will never know really sat there pop on down to one and see for yourself
one more thing there are secular meetings that might be more to your liking ?

MIRecovery

When I stopped fighting and trying to do it my way. When I learned to listen and embrace change things started to get better.

I can say from a scientific perspective that my way failed 100% of the time

CaptainWhip

I'm agnostic and in the UK. I'm trying to find any type of meeting to go to and have a list from my therapist. But it seems AA is the the most common in my area. I want to try one out just to see what its's like. But if it's constant talk about God then that's not for me. Can I just go to an open meeting and observe without talking?

rc4dt1

I kept relapsing when trying other methods. I stayed sober for the longest periods when I used AA.

I googled "how to stay sober without AA" countless times and I tried almost every option I could find. I learned some helpful tools and skills but I kept drinking and using drugs after short periods of clean time.

When I thought "maybe I could go back to AA" I rejected it for months... then one day it was the only source of hope I could find. Seriously, that is the ONLY reason I went back. Today I am so glad I did.

Of course, there are things about meetings and the people in them that annoy me. I left AA a few times because of this (and drank). But there are people that I don't mesh well with everywhere. Just because I go to meetings and do the steps doesn't mean I have to listen to, believe, or take to heart every single thing I hear or read. There are going to be people/theories that I won't connect with. Just like everything else in life (work, relationships, religion, etc). My point is that AA as a whole is not perfect. It's an option for everyone though, if they want to recover from alcoholism/addiction. There is a lot of good there. A LOT. I choose to focus on that - it's what works for me.

Finally, I struggled with a higher power for a long time. What helped me was to go to a meeting and see a lot of people that are sober and happy (most - not all) doing this "thing" and following these "suggestions". They obviously found something that can work. I hadn't found that "something" yet. So logic (science, math, whatever you want to call it) told me that they must have found something stronger than me or anything I had tried. It's just words... higher power. I replaced that with "something stronger than me". That something was the program and the people for starters. My concept has evolved from there.

Sorry for the ramble. Good luck.

caboblanco

you can go to AA and not talk..you might be made to admit you are an alcoholic..other than that you might get people wanting to be your sponsor and if you go to same meeting long enough they will push you to get one...but going to meeting here and there..no sweat

rc4dt1

nobody can make you do anything....

cabo, I know what you are saying... I just want to make sure it's clear that people in meetings shouldn't be making you do anything... in my experience they do not do that.

miamifella

There is little "evidence." Nor can there be because the strength (and weakness) of the program is how decentralized it is. Each meeting seems to be structured to meet the needs of the particular people attending.

If you post something about your own experience with AA in this forum, some people will tell you they went through the same thing and others will tell you that their experience is the opposite.

I think "data" is deceptive in such situations. It can become an excuse to not try any particular program. What does it really matter if a program helps 95% of the people who try it or 4%? What matters is if it helps you as an individual. If it does, then no statistic will matter.

AA did not help me. But I only found that out by trying it. Just try it (or some other program) and see if it works for you. Research before taking the plunge will only delay your recovery.

caboblanco

i remember i went to an AA meeting many years ago..and I said I have a bad relationship to alcohol instead that im an alcoholic..it was basically like an intervention with complete strangers after that.,so the next times i said i was an alcoholic..i mean who cares..it doesn't mean anything..not to me

SoberandGlad

Alcoholics Anonymous is very cult-like in my opinion, because it has no affiliation with any religion, yet claims to be able to help you to "find" God. Yes, they pray the serenity prayer and the prayer that Christ instituted, but that is about all they do that is religious (it was co-founded by a priest by the way). Often times, the members still party, but with caffeinated beverages instead of alcoholic beverages, which does not seem to be the sober Christian lifestyle to me.

If you want to get sober, then it is a starting point. I found better help at drug rehabilitation. However, the rehabilitation place required that I attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, so there was an interrelation of the two. If you are newly sober, or seeking help, and you keep going to the meetings, then you will learn a thing or two. I found a lot of the things that some of the people had to say were untruthful, like you cannot survive without the meetings and so on.

If you want to stay sober, just stay off the drugs and change your lifestyle so to not let drugs in your life. That is what I learned from drug rehabilitation. Alcoholics Anonymous does a little of the same but wants you to follow the steps in order to do so. I find it to be a method which goes against my faith, so I stopped going. It is hard to find a sober community other than Alcoholics Anonymous, though, so you might have to compromise on some issues if you need the support.

DOCBOM

Made science will someday create a solution…………perhaps in the form of a pill

1) You could take a pill for Anger
2) You could take a pill for Resentment
3) You could take a pill for impatience
4) You could take a pill for Fear
5) You could take a pill for Dishonesty
6) You could take a pill for Depression
7) You could take a pill for Anxiety
8) You could take a pill for Jealousy and envy
9) You could take a pill for Intolerance
10) You could take a pill for Selfishness
11) You could take a pill for Self contentedness
12) You could take a pill for Control
13) You could take a pill for Prejudice
14) You could take a pill for Self pity
15) You could take a pill for Arrogance
16) You could take a pill for Laziness
17) You could take a pill for being a Fake and a Phony
18) You could take a pill for Denial
19) You could take a pill for Greed
20) You could take a pill for your Ego
21) You could take a pill for Lust
22) You could take a pill for Self seeking
23) You could take a pill for Shyness
24) You could take a pill for Pride
25) You could take a pill for being irritable


You would be so busy taking pills you would not Have time to Drink

sugarbear1

work the steps

an experience that you may have will be all the evidence you need

dSober

As a born engineer/scientist myself, let me ask you this... What's the obvious, scientific way to find out?

Archelon

I would suggest you go to a few open meetings and listen. If you prefer when people do introductions you can simply introduce yourself as a guest. It will give you an idea what AA is like in your area. Maybe try a few different groups.

You do not need to sign anything or put names on a list or anything at all, it's fine to just go and sit in.

Also there is Alcoholism 12 step forum here on SR, if you spend some time reading and posting you will get some idea of how AA works also.

You can read the Big Book online or free from any library, so also can learn the literature with no investment.

BadCompany

Great! Go there, take the actions suggested, and record your findings.

jsprplc2006

Indeed, but I'd rather know what it's like at one of those places before I go there myself.

I'd like to point out that many people in this thread claimed anecdotes as evidence. There are thousands of alien abduction anecdotes too; the people who tell them are convinced, but no one takes them seriously.

As for the other question - the one demonstrating a poor understanding of how science works - this would involve a properly conducted scientific study. A large number of subjects - a hundred at least, the more the merrier - would be followed for a particular time interval, perhaps a year, and given a specific treatment or program or a particular combination of them (such as medical management, CBT, AA attendance, pharmaceutical therapy - such as naltrexone, addictions counselling, a stay in a recovery centre, etc.).

Another large cohort would be given one of the above treatments combined something that could generate a placebo (it would not be ethical to offer only placebo, and this research would not be permissible).

The remaining people who *freely* refused any form of treatment and wished to deal with the problem themselves would be the final cohort, this being the only ethical way to form a "no treatment given" group.

The data collected regarding total days sober, sobriety intervals, or complete abstinence would then be statistically analyzed for significance, and the researchers would then interpret these numbers to make a statement regarding which methods worked better than others, what placebo effects were involved in forming the data, and whether certain methods were actually no better than doing nothing at all.

These studies HAVE been done, and we have some hard facts. For example it has been well demonstrated that naltrexone reduces relapse severity, as well as increasing the chances of achieving long-term sobriety. (Latt NC, Jurd S, Houseman J, Wutzke SE (June 2002). "Naltrexone in alcohol dependence: a randomised controlled trial of effectiveness in a standard clinical setting". Med J Aust 176 (11): 530–4. PMID 12064984.)

AA is difficult to analyze properly because it is decentralized, doesn't keep records, and has attempted to report that regular attendance, rather than abstinence or reduced drinking, demonstrates success. However, an extensive analysis was recently done with the available information, and found that of eight studies done, "No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or (Twelve Step Facilitation) approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems." (Ferri M, Amato L, Davoli M. Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programmes for alcohol dependence. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2006, Issue 3. Art. No.: CD005032. DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD005032.pub2)

If there are any studies from the past 8 years demonstrating otherwise which I don't know about, please tell me. Until then, I request that everyone touting AA as a good solution to problem drinking acknowledge that it is a matter of opinion, and a matter of opinion ONLY. If you want to make stronger statements, you need evidence. The sort of which is cited above.

Dee74

If you haven't been to a meeting the best way to make your own assessment is go to one I think

There are secular meeting based groups like SMART Recovery LifeRing and a few others but they're not as widely available as AA.

There's also Rational Recovery but that has no meetings at all.

Here's some links to some of the main players, including but not limited to AA:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html

I also recommend, if you haven't already that you visit the Secular Connections forum if you think you may benefit from a non Higher Power approach.
D