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Some questions about AA from those who have been...



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Some questions about AA from those who have been...

Old 07-29-2014, 08:26 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jsprplc2006 View Post
Oh dear god, this is ridiculous. It is still an anecdote. I'll explain it for you:

I'm sure you agree that cigarettes can cause early death (among other things). Then, suppose I say "Well, my uncle smoked and he lived until he was 80, so cigarettes DON'T cause early death". This is an anecdote. This is my imaginary uncle's "life story". If he existed, these would be "real hard facts".

But if I believed in that reasoning, I'd be an idiot. This is the kind of reasoning you are trying to use with me.
my story clearly shows what happened to me not your uncle, not anyone else but me, dont confuse my story with anyone else, and we are not talking about smoking or anything else other than booze and its effects on me in my story
the cost to the tax payer was huge and you can bet there glad i am in aa and not costing the tax payer anything these days
so how on earth did this amazing thing happen to me ?
simple i tried out aa and it works how much more proof would you need ?
its not me who isnt listening my friend
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:26 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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I suggest you try a secular recovery program instead of AA. My suggestion does not come with peer-reviewed, double blind research statistics though so you should probably disregard it.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:26 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jsprplc2006 View Post
However, an extensive analysis was recently done with the available information, and found that of eight studies done, "No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or (Twelve Step Facilitation) approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems."
As far as I can tell, that is right. However, one must look at AA in terms of what constitutes "success rates". I have seen a lot of people come into AA simply because they have an authority figure on their back (Judge, employer, spouse, parent...). They do just enough - just long enough to please the authority in question. Then they go back to their old ways of living.

To a third-party observer, they appear to be a failure. From a first-person perspective - Mission Accomplished.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:26 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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So what are you willing to do to get sober? The only way I know to get and stay sober that works 100% of the time is to not take the first drink.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:29 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Before I had ever tasted strawberry short cake as a kid, I remember looking around at the others at the table who had started to eat theirs. Their facial expressions, mmmm's and nods told me that they were getting something from their experience, so I took the big plunge. I decided to try it for myself.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:33 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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I remember wanting a cast iron guarantee too
The only cast iron guarantee for success is not drinking again.

If you can achieve that on your own, all well and good

If you can't? then you're going to have to put your faith and trust in some method or support group, and things like faith and trust are intrinsically unquantifiable.

D
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:39 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SoberandGlad View Post
Alcoholics Anonymous is very cult-like in my opinion, because it has no affiliation with any religion, yet claims to be able to help you to "find" God. Yes, they pray the serenity prayer and the prayer that Christ instituted, but that is about all they do that is religious (it was co-founded by a priest by the way).
Alcoholics Anonymous was founded by a stockbroker Bill Wilson and a proctologist Dr Bob Smith and inspired by the teachings of the Oxford group. The serenity prayer was written by the American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:45 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
Before I had ever tasted strawberry short cake as a kid, I remember looking around at the others at the table who had started to eat theirs. Their facial expressions, mmmm's and nods told me that they were getting something from their experience, so I took the big plunge. I decided to try it for myself.
As a child yes. However, as an adult I've learned in business as well as in the rooms of AA to go with my gut instincts. Not necessarily smiles of joy. If something strikes me as off about the person doing the smiling I don't readily dismiss this.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:47 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
I remember wanting a cast iron guarantee too
There is a "cast iron" guarantee that will ensure not drinking ever again 100%

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Old 07-29-2014, 08:52 PM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Boleo View Post
There is a "cast iron" guarantee that will ensure not drinking ever again 100%

that is also the only cast iron guarantee of the cure for alcoholism when they put me in a box i will be cured
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:15 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jsprplc2006 View Post
Indeed, but I'd rather know what it's like at one of those places before I go there myself.
Each meeting is unique, and is a function of experience shared by those in attendance.

I understand the reluctance of some who are suspicious of the hocus pocus nature of a group centered on reliance on a "higher power" to solve their drink problem. I shared that skepticism when I went to rehab in 2009, and had no real intention of going to AA when I was released at the end of my treatment. In fact, I did go to AA meetings after I returned home, and to my surprise ended up making AA a key part of my recovery.

AA does not claim to have a monopoly on sobriety, and the 12 steps are suggestive only. Are there many members of the group who are dogmatic? Absolutely. They are sharing what worked for them.

Some atheists and agnostics seem to vilify AA, yet crave the one on one support it offers. The face to face support of others trying to get sober is the cornerstone of how AA works. Honest and experienced feedback from others who have managed to stay sober is key. There is no patent on this method - why not start your own group, based on your own ideals? Few, if any, who have experienced "the jumping off place" will find fault in any method that helps people recover their lives, utility, and happiness from this disease.

If the scientific method is what it takes for another alcoholic to get sober, I say more power to him or her. Borrow as much or as little as you wish from other approaches to make a program that works for you. AA definitely does not "work" for everyone. Rather than waste time quantifying what you already believe to be true about AA, why not make the proverbial better mousetrap? The need certainly exists.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:17 PM
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>>Hmm, I can definitely see where you're coming from and respect the view point you have now...in fact, I felt/feel the same as you're now describing! I grew up catholic, but long abandoned those ideals and was *sincerely* put off by the idea of a "higher power" or any of that mumbo jumbo...in addition, the idea having to go around apologizing to people or whatever also didn't sit well with me...but to be honest, the way I felt about alcohol and drugs, I was so sick and tired, I felt pretty desperate for anything to help me get clean and sober, and once I decided to go to NA with an open mind and an open heart, everything figured itself out...

>>It's unfortunate, but I assure you, if you walk into the meeting already on the defensive, it will be truly hard to find anything but fault with the program and how its run...As you stated, there are certain people that are over zealous, who are AA/NA "fundamentalists" if you will, but please, don't let these few individuals spoil the entire experience for you, or, at least, what it could potentially be...

>>As for the reservations I mentioned earlier, I found them all to be more of a figment of my imagination, or, better put, the whole program never turned out to be what I had previously chalked it up to...in NA (I know you must be rolling your eyes as I quote the basic text) all the references to "God" or a "Higher Power" is only "...as we understood him". The fellowship is supposed to maintain secularity, and anything besides that would be corrupt. And all the apologies, I realized that the whole process would only aid in my emotional healing..

>>And, lastly, as with anything, it works at your own discretion...you don't have to look at the program as "all or nothing", perhaps, even if you decide against working a program, you will still be able to take certain positive things away from its ideologies.

Good luck in your sobriety no matter which road you decide to take towards it!
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:29 PM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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The thing that works is you, not a program of recovery or anything else. You don't need to drink anymore, you really don't. You think you need to drink, but you don't.

The other side of this coin is the simple fact that you can quit drinking, and you may quit, you can give yourself permission to quit drinking. You can choose to quit drinking, and do it. No magics required. I think you deserve a life without all the garbage that alcohol addiction brings - how about you?
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:24 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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Well said freshstart,
Self efficacy, a vital component in all this.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:31 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jsprplc2006 View Post
However, I'm a very scientific minded person, and I disagree with many aspects of how "12 step programs" are structured, and the only thing that will change my mind about these programs is cold, hard evidence.
If I needed hard evidence for all the programs I am doing, I would still be drinking. Programs are just that, they are just programs. Until I wanted to actually stop drinking, none of these programs were going to work. I use these programs as tools.

I use to be like that I needed everything all wrapped up neat and tidy and had to make sense to me. I needed it presented to me that way because I wasn't ready to quit drinking. But I am just speaking for me here.

Some parts of the programs make sense to me and some don't. The parts that do, I focus on them and I table the ones that don't for later.

I don't get caught up in all the studies or needing "proof" that something works. That just makes it complicated to me, and that, I don't need. Just because they don't work for others, doesn't mean they won't work for me.

There are so many different programs out there now and you can do more than one at a time. I do WFS, AA, and Smart sometimes. Do I do them exactly the way they say I have to? Probably not, but I do my best to take the programs and find a way that makes them work for me.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:40 AM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jsprplc2006 View Post
Indeed, but I'd rather know what it's like at one of those places before I go there myself.
...
AA is difficult to analyze properly
I think you missed my point. It's impossible to analyze properly without seeing it for yourself. Paralysis of analysis is a huge problem for many. Many analyze themselves right into an early grave.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:08 AM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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P.S. I very nearly did exactly that. While I have learned not to regret my past, if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't repeat it.

While AA meetings are essential, especially for newcomers, the core of AA is the 12 steps, described, in detail, in the landmark 1939 "Alcoholics Anonymous". It is, by far, the most effective way to deal with addiction. It is a very scientific method that reaches beyond science for the solution. There is a beyond science. Do we know what's beyond the universe? Do we know what the ultimately small particles are? Do we know when time began or when it will end? Obviously not. Do you think we ever will? Personally I don't.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:25 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Oops, couldn't get this in before the edit timer expired, lol. Pllease add:

"Personally, I think that's what makes it all so beautiful!"
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:50 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Hi jsprplc2006,

When I was new to AA, I used to hear it shared quite a bit that there are some people who are just too smart to get sober. Back then I wasn't sure what they meant by that, but I kept coming because I had the gift of desperation.

Sounds to me as if you might be the classic text book definition of "too smart to get sober"

I will try to keep this real simple for you, because I too am of the Scientific world, in the Medical field, and before I went to AA and got involved, not just sitting there......I got involved, I too needed proof, to be shown exactly how this Program worked or I believed that if that couldn't be done to my satisfaction....then I am not going!!

Well, there came a day, that my brain, my degrees, books, psychologists, psychiatrists and all my intelligence.... was simply no good, didn't work, no matter what I did with this scientific mind..... I still picked up that next drink, because as one AA member put it to me....."I had no defense against the first drink"

Now, you and I when first faced with that simple truth, will fight it. After all, we are not powerless over anything! We are intelligent people!! LOL So intelligent that we will go to the GRAVE before asking for help and allow those who DO know how to stay sober, to help us. Now seriously, how intelligent is that? We are sometimes so EGO driven, that we will die, rather then simply just surrendering to the truth...... and that truth is, that there is a simple Solution that works, when we do not complicate the hell out of it.

That AA member back then told me the truth, that some people are just too smart to get sober, and that if I insisted on doing it my way, that no one here in the halls was going to trying to stop me. He suggested that I get to alot of AA meetings, sit up front and listen, get a Big Book and read it, get lots of telephone numbers, call them. Get a meeting list book and join an AA Group nearest to my home, get a Sponsor and begin working, applying and practicing the 12 Steps of AA...... because it works, when we work it.

Yup, I have been to many funerals of those who were just too damn smart to get sober in AA..... and I have also listened to some wonderful AA people without degrees, who have some of the most powerful recovery I have ever had seen. What an absolute honor to be with them and just listen to them share.

See, WE in AA, don't care where you come from or how you got here all we care about is that you get the same chance that WE did here in the halls of AA to recover from Alcoholism........whether you came in from Jail or Yale, We will welcome you with open arms.

See, alcoholism doesn't discriminate, it doesn't care if one is intelligent or not..... its an equal opportunity KILLER.


p.s. My son has a wonderful Scientific mind, he has a Bachelors in Physics, a Masters in Electrical Engineering, and he got them both at the same time... and he is working on his PhD in Computer Science at Johns Hopkins University. He was sent to Germany to work with some of the top Engineers in the World.

Guess what he is reading as we speak? "Opening the Door of Your Heart" by Ajahn Brahm
And he loves it
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Old 07-30-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Patriciae View Post
Guess what he is reading as we speak? "Opening the Door of Your Heart" by Ajahn Brahm
And he loves it
Yet another addition to my reading list. Oh joy. Thanks Patriciae.
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