litmus test for recovery
out there living their lives, desypete.
nor did i say ( in reference to gottalife's response) that they simply spontaneously recovered.
i'm saying there are ways to recover other than following steps or sponsor's suggestions. there were people, of course there were, recovering long before AA.
yes, i would think most of them took actions. made changes. worked at it. may even have talked to others.
people have been getting sober since there was first booze. but most certainly not all of them had others' suggestions or sought others out.
to simply suggest that they therefore weren't or aren't 'real' alcoholics is disingenuous and simply a closed self-referencing loop.
and if the OP hadn't been in this general 'alcoholism' section,. i wouldn't have posted in the thread. i assumed Boleo put it here to invite people other than solely 12-step responders, or he would have put it in that section.
nor did i say ( in reference to gottalife's response) that they simply spontaneously recovered.
i'm saying there are ways to recover other than following steps or sponsor's suggestions. there were people, of course there were, recovering long before AA.
yes, i would think most of them took actions. made changes. worked at it. may even have talked to others.
people have been getting sober since there was first booze. but most certainly not all of them had others' suggestions or sought others out.
to simply suggest that they therefore weren't or aren't 'real' alcoholics is disingenuous and simply a closed self-referencing loop.
and if the OP hadn't been in this general 'alcoholism' section,. i wouldn't have posted in the thread. i assumed Boleo put it here to invite people other than solely 12-step responders, or he would have put it in that section.
1. The source of the suggestions don't seem to be all that important.
2. The quality of the suggestions doesn't seem all that important.
3. The type of person following the suggestions does not seem to be all that important.
The only thing that does seem to be important is the "doing" part of the suggestions.
"Remember only this; you need not believe the ideas, you need not accept them, and you need not even welcome them. Some of this you may actually resist. None of this will matter, or decrease their efficacy. But do not allow yourself to make exceptions in applying the ideas the workbook contains, and whatever your reactions to the ideas may be, use them. Nothing more than that is required."
(A Course In Miracles)
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
I understand and this is your truth and experience but not mine. I jut don't like when others generalize and include me in there generalization. I did not drink just because I liked to drink. Did I do that sometimes? Yeah. Towards the end? No, its was because I had to. Very different experience and so I have had to craft presumably a very different recovery.
I find when I used to generalize its because I didn't feel secure in what I was doing. By telling others how it is or was, I was projecting for purposes of reinforcing my own insecurities about recovery, program, myself.
I find when I used to generalize its because I didn't feel secure in what I was doing. By telling others how it is or was, I was projecting for purposes of reinforcing my own insecurities about recovery, program, myself.
out there living their lives, desypete.
nor did i say ( in reference to gottalife's response) that they simply spontaneously recovered.
i'm saying there are ways to recover other than following steps or sponsor's suggestions. there were people, of course there were, recovering long before AA.
nor did i say ( in reference to gottalife's response) that they simply spontaneously recovered.
i'm saying there are ways to recover other than following steps or sponsor's suggestions. there were people, of course there were, recovering long before AA.
"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."
I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
You've bought the historian in me out now
People gave up drinking for God for millennia before 1935.
The Temperance movement was particularly vibrant in New Zealand Mike.
http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/h...3_bulletin.pdf
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/prohibition
D
People gave up drinking for God for millennia before 1935.
The Temperance movement was particularly vibrant in New Zealand Mike.
http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/h...3_bulletin.pdf
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/prohibition
D
QUOTE=Dee74;4805721]You've bought the historian in me out now
People gave up drinking for God for millennia before 1935.
The Temperance movement was particularly vibrant in New Zealand Mike.
http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/h...3_bulletin.pdf
The Movement in New Zealand – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand
D[/QUOTE]
We are talking about recovery from chronic alcoholism Dee, not just giving up drinking.
Jung spoke about vital spiritual experiences occuring over the ages, and William James also talks about religious experiences though not specifically for recovery from alcoholism. These were very rare occurances but an example of such a recovery is given in the Big Book with the story of Roland H, who recovered before AA and never joined AA.
Temperance was nothing to do with treating alcoholism, it was about taking a
pledge, or swearing off with a solemn oath as it is described in
the Big Book. Prohibition did nothing to reduce alcoholism either.
There was the aspect of the licensing trusts in NZ, some of which still operate today, but the idea was always to restrict the sale and consumption of alcohol, not treat alcoholism. The trusts actually fund local worthy causes with their surpluses from running trust hotels/bars.
What you seem to be saying is that pre AA the options were:
a) get religion, or
b) just don't drink, sign a pledge.
People gave up drinking for God for millennia before 1935.
The Temperance movement was particularly vibrant in New Zealand Mike.
http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/h...3_bulletin.pdf
The Movement in New Zealand – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand
D[/QUOTE]
We are talking about recovery from chronic alcoholism Dee, not just giving up drinking.
Jung spoke about vital spiritual experiences occuring over the ages, and William James also talks about religious experiences though not specifically for recovery from alcoholism. These were very rare occurances but an example of such a recovery is given in the Big Book with the story of Roland H, who recovered before AA and never joined AA.
Temperance was nothing to do with treating alcoholism, it was about taking a
pledge, or swearing off with a solemn oath as it is described in
the Big Book. Prohibition did nothing to reduce alcoholism either.
There was the aspect of the licensing trusts in NZ, some of which still operate today, but the idea was always to restrict the sale and consumption of alcohol, not treat alcoholism. The trusts actually fund local worthy causes with their surpluses from running trust hotels/bars.
What you seem to be saying is that pre AA the options were:
a) get religion, or
b) just don't drink, sign a pledge.
I haven't done an exhaustive sweep of alcoholism through the ages, Mike...I just happened on the 18th and 19th century temperance movements in the course of studying something else
My point was that temperance movements were powerful enough to affect Government and even effect legislation at one point in history.
If you want to argue that none of those hundreds of thousands of people were chronic alcoholics in the AA sense, I guess you're right in that I have no answer to that LOL.
I have immense respect for AA. It's saved many of my friends lives.
It's peer support model is ubiquitous and infinitely preferable to the Victorian workhouses jails or ill-named Benevolent Asylums that used to house what society termed the hopeless alcoholics.
But people did, and still do find recovery without AA...even chronic alcoholics like myself.
To be honest I'm not sure why that seems to be such a contentious statement here?
D
My point was that temperance movements were powerful enough to affect Government and even effect legislation at one point in history.
If you want to argue that none of those hundreds of thousands of people were chronic alcoholics in the AA sense, I guess you're right in that I have no answer to that LOL.
I have immense respect for AA. It's saved many of my friends lives.
It's peer support model is ubiquitous and infinitely preferable to the Victorian workhouses jails or ill-named Benevolent Asylums that used to house what society termed the hopeless alcoholics.
But people did, and still do find recovery without AA...even chronic alcoholics like myself.
To be honest I'm not sure why that seems to be such a contentious statement here?
D
Last edited by Dee74; 07-28-2014 at 01:54 AM. Reason: predictive brain
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Join Date: May 2014
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how can you prove it ? for all i know they could of drank themselves to death or still drinking or in mental institutions or prisons.
i went sober for 15 years on my own but it got me in the end, i picked up the drink again and it lead to 8 short years of drinking, but in those 8 years it got worse and worse i ended up drinking everyday and lost everything
it taught me one huge lesson in life
i can not do this on my own, aa saved me and still does today from me picking up that first drink
on my own i lost my kids and wife my business my money and my liberty with going to prison
in aa i got my kids back, my freedom, a job, money, and a good way of living
so its no contest for me what wins
i went sober for 15 years on my own but it got me in the end, i picked up the drink again and it lead to 8 short years of drinking, but in those 8 years it got worse and worse i ended up drinking everyday and lost everything
it taught me one huge lesson in life
i can not do this on my own, aa saved me and still does today from me picking up that first drink
on my own i lost my kids and wife my business my money and my liberty with going to prison
in aa i got my kids back, my freedom, a job, money, and a good way of living
so its no contest for me what wins
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
The paradox is... the suggestions themselves (good, bad, smart, dumb) seem to play little, if any, part in the high degree of efficacy in long-term recovery. It's as if ALL the results come from the willingness of the person following the suggestions and hardly any of the results are based on the quality of those suggestions.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Disease? Obsession of the mind? Weak-will or just plain f-ed up?
Who knows?
All I am sure of is that I pick up one drink I am sure I will want a few more after that.
Although I have been in AA for many years I don't know a lot of members outside of the context of an AA meeting. Now, a lot of members talk a good game inside the rooms but how well they function outside in the world is what really counts.
No, but it is fun.
And there it is.
Who knows?
All I am sure of is that I pick up one drink I am sure I will want a few more after that.
And there it is.
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Disease? Obsession of the mind? Weak-will or just plain f-ed up?
Who knows?
All I am sure of is that I pick up one drink I am sure I will want a few more after that.
Although I have been in AA for many years I don't know a lot of members outside of the context of an AA meeting. Now, a lot of members talk a good game inside the rooms but how well they function outside in the world is what really counts.
No, but it is fun.
And there it is.
Who knows?
All I am sure of is that I pick up one drink I am sure I will want a few more after that.
Although I have been in AA for many years I don't know a lot of members outside of the context of an AA meeting. Now, a lot of members talk a good game inside the rooms but how well they function outside in the world is what really counts.
No, but it is fun.
And there it is.
and there it is : )
that is the truth as no one knows who will make it or not and i will take it one step futher
all i can tell anyone is i am sober today. i guess a lot of other people can stay sober for a day as well : )
I had a woman that is now a very good friend tell me that she thought when I walked in the rooms she said to herself "nope". I did not talk much at the start and I am still not one to speak up all the time.
She told me this because she wanted me to know she was wrong and that you can never ever tell who is going to make it and who doesn't. It also taught me never to do the same to someone else.
She said once I did open my mouth, she could hear that, while I had a ways to go, I got it. I understood the program.
You sponsor is right, we do not have a clue so why do we keep trying to find one?
It is sort of like drinking. I could not control it, so I stopped trying.
We are alike in many ways but there are more ways we are different. I doubt that every single variable that has happened in someone's life before they got to the rooms and with their personality taken into consideration that can predict a yes or a no and on top of that, it is not my job to do so.
My job is to help, if I can, and carry the message, not decide who takes it our how they take it.
Nor am I saying I can predict who will and who will not continue to follow directions in the future. Promises and commitments are not "one & done" deals.
All I am saying is that those who are currently following directions have a far better chance staying sober tomorrow than those who simply don't drink ODAAT.
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Here are my questions:
1) Did anyone in the world recover from alcoholism by way of a spiritual awakening before 1935?
2) What exactly defines a "real or chronic alcoholic"?
3) By his own account, Dee had a very debilitating addiction. From what I've read, he identifies as an alcoholic. Are some of you saying that because he recovered without AA that he is not really recovered or that he wasn't a chronic or real alcoholic to begin with? Because if that is the case, then I would like to see someone just go ahead and type out the words "Dee is not a real alcoholic". I would find that a strange statement. However, if I'm understanding correctly here, that's exactly what some of you are saying.
It is odd to me that a person would diminish how another person went about changing their life just because it doesn't match how they went about changing their life. The people that I know in AA who truly live the steps do not do this.
1) Did anyone in the world recover from alcoholism by way of a spiritual awakening before 1935?
2) What exactly defines a "real or chronic alcoholic"?
3) By his own account, Dee had a very debilitating addiction. From what I've read, he identifies as an alcoholic. Are some of you saying that because he recovered without AA that he is not really recovered or that he wasn't a chronic or real alcoholic to begin with? Because if that is the case, then I would like to see someone just go ahead and type out the words "Dee is not a real alcoholic". I would find that a strange statement. However, if I'm understanding correctly here, that's exactly what some of you are saying.
It is odd to me that a person would diminish how another person went about changing their life just because it doesn't match how they went about changing their life. The people that I know in AA who truly live the steps do not do this.
What ways? If there was an alternative to AA I would have found it.
"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."
I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."
I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
are you taking into account the recovery that is administered in over 95% of recovery facilities? that came directly from American temperance ideology... nothing wrong with that..i just don't see how you wiggle out of that fact
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Location: Vashon WA
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For me, the most important litmus test is the faith, ability and will to not pick up a drink, ever, for any reason. Everything else is over thinking it. I believe all the stories that I've heard about people trying to be moderate drinkers. This isn't to say that AA and working the steps doesn't work, just that the first step is the most important one.
Today, once again, I am thankful to not have a hangover. This is going to be a good week!
Today, once again, I am thankful to not have a hangover. This is going to be a good week!
I was told yesterday by someone who sent me a text from a meeting last night that I wasn't an alcoholic. I just had a life event that made me stop drinking. ?????????????
Just because I told him I didn't need to do the step thing...
Just because I told him I didn't need to do the step thing...
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