Notices

litmus test for recovery

Old 07-27-2014, 07:36 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
Member
 
fini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,241
Originally Posted by desypete View Post
were are they ?
out there living their lives, desypete.
nor did i say ( in reference to gottalife's response) that they simply spontaneously recovered.
i'm saying there are ways to recover other than following steps or sponsor's suggestions. there were people, of course there were, recovering long before AA.
yes, i would think most of them took actions. made changes. worked at it. may even have talked to others.
people have been getting sober since there was first booze. but most certainly not all of them had others' suggestions or sought others out.
to simply suggest that they therefore weren't or aren't 'real' alcoholics is disingenuous and simply a closed self-referencing loop.

and if the OP hadn't been in this general 'alcoholism' section,. i wouldn't have posted in the thread. i assumed Boleo put it here to invite people other than solely 12-step responders, or he would have put it in that section.
fini is offline  
Old 07-27-2014, 07:48 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
Laozi Old Man
Thread Starter
 
Boleo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by fini View Post
and if the OP hadn't been in this general 'alcoholism' section,. i wouldn't have posted in the thread. i assumed Boleo put it here to invite people other than solely 12-step responders, or he would have put it in that section.
I posted here for a number of reasons;

1. The source of the suggestions don't seem to be all that important.
2. The quality of the suggestions doesn't seem all that important.
3. The type of person following the suggestions does not seem to be all that important.

The only thing that does seem to be important is the "doing" part of the suggestions.

"Remember only this; you need not believe the ideas, you need not accept them, and you need not even welcome them. Some of this you may actually resist. None of this will matter, or decrease their efficacy. But do not allow yourself to make exceptions in applying the ideas the workbook contains, and whatever your reactions to the ideas may be, use them. Nothing more than that is required."
(A Course In Miracles)
Boleo is offline  
Old 07-27-2014, 08:08 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by jdooner View Post
I understand and this is your truth and experience but not mine. I jut don't like when others generalize and include me in there generalization. I did not drink just because I liked to drink. Did I do that sometimes? Yeah. Towards the end? No, its was because I had to. Very different experience and so I have had to craft presumably a very different recovery.

I find when I used to generalize its because I didn't feel secure in what I was doing. By telling others how it is or was, I was projecting for purposes of reinforcing my own insecurities about recovery, program, myself.
i don't think when i start a sentence with 'I think" that i'm including other people in anything. you don't have to tell me what i'm thinking or feeling..I already know that. I won't apologize..because that would be admitting a wrong doing..that's absurd..you can say whatever you want..thoughts..opinions..ideas..i love that....don't waste your time scolding me..that's really tired and has nothing to do with me anyway
caboblanco is offline  
Old 07-27-2014, 10:57 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
 
Gottalife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by fini View Post
out there living their lives, desypete.
nor did i say ( in reference to gottalife's response) that they simply spontaneously recovered.
i'm saying there are ways to recover other than following steps or sponsor's suggestions. there were people, of course there were, recovering long before AA.
What ways? If there was an alternative to AA I would have found it.

"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."

I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
Gottalife is offline  
Old 07-27-2014, 11:02 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
Administrator
 
Dee74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,037
You've bought the historian in me out now
People gave up drinking for God for millennia before 1935.

The Temperance movement was particularly vibrant in New Zealand Mike.

http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/h...3_bulletin.pdf
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/prohibition
D
Dee74 is offline  
Old 07-27-2014, 11:44 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
 
Gottalife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
QUOTE=Dee74;4805721]You've bought the historian in me out now
People gave up drinking for God for millennia before 1935.

The Temperance movement was particularly vibrant in New Zealand Mike.

http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/h...3_bulletin.pdf
The Movement in New Zealand – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand
D[/QUOTE]

We are talking about recovery from chronic alcoholism Dee, not just giving up drinking.

Jung spoke about vital spiritual experiences occuring over the ages, and William James also talks about religious experiences though not specifically for recovery from alcoholism. These were very rare occurances but an example of such a recovery is given in the Big Book with the story of Roland H, who recovered before AA and never joined AA.

Temperance was nothing to do with treating alcoholism, it was about taking a
pledge, or swearing off with a solemn oath as it is described in
the Big Book. Prohibition did nothing to reduce alcoholism either.

There was the aspect of the licensing trusts in NZ, some of which still operate today, but the idea was always to restrict the sale and consumption of alcohol, not treat alcoholism. The trusts actually fund local worthy causes with their surpluses from running trust hotels/bars.

What you seem to be saying is that pre AA the options were:
a) get religion, or
b) just don't drink, sign a pledge.
Gottalife is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 12:24 AM
  # 47 (permalink)  
Administrator
 
Dee74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,037
I haven't done an exhaustive sweep of alcoholism through the ages, Mike...I just happened on the 18th and 19th century temperance movements in the course of studying something else

My point was that temperance movements were powerful enough to affect Government and even effect legislation at one point in history.

If you want to argue that none of those hundreds of thousands of people were chronic alcoholics in the AA sense, I guess you're right in that I have no answer to that LOL.

I have immense respect for AA. It's saved many of my friends lives.

It's peer support model is ubiquitous and infinitely preferable to the Victorian workhouses jails or ill-named Benevolent Asylums that used to house what society termed the hopeless alcoholics.

But people did, and still do find recovery without AA...even chronic alcoholics like myself.

To be honest I'm not sure why that seems to be such a contentious statement here?

D

Last edited by Dee74; 07-28-2014 at 01:54 AM. Reason: predictive brain
Dee74 is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 12:54 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by fini View Post
out there living their lives, desypete.
how can you prove it ? for all i know they could of drank themselves to death or still drinking or in mental institutions or prisons.

i went sober for 15 years on my own but it got me in the end, i picked up the drink again and it lead to 8 short years of drinking, but in those 8 years it got worse and worse i ended up drinking everyday and lost everything

it taught me one huge lesson in life
i can not do this on my own, aa saved me and still does today from me picking up that first drink

on my own i lost my kids and wife my business my money and my liberty with going to prison

in aa i got my kids back, my freedom, a job, money, and a good way of living

so its no contest for me what wins
desypete is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 02:40 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by Boleo View Post

The paradox is... the suggestions themselves (good, bad, smart, dumb) seem to play little, if any, part in the high degree of efficacy in long-term recovery. It's as if ALL the results come from the willingness of the person following the suggestions and hardly any of the results are based on the quality of those suggestions.
are you going to try to tell me that there is a difference between that whole paragraph and the notion of just wanting to drink or not? i mean I agree with you i just don't think you need to use that many words or call something like that a paradox.
caboblanco is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 02:55 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Disease? Obsession of the mind? Weak-will or just plain f-ed up?

Who knows?

All I am sure of is that I pick up one drink I am sure I will want a few more after that.



Originally Posted by Boleo View Post
...I once discussed this with a 50+ year sober old-timer. He told me to pay attention to peoples actions and ignore their words. He was right, when it comes to recovery - action speaks louder than words.
Although I have been in AA for many years I don't know a lot of members outside of the context of an AA meeting. Now, a lot of members talk a good game inside the rooms but how well they function outside in the world is what really counts.


Originally Posted by ScottFromWI View Post
This is a very tired argument. And it doesn't have one Answer that fits all, it never will. Is this really beneficial to anyone outside the small circle of you few who incessantly debate it here?
No, but it is fun.


Originally Posted by MIRecovery View Post
My first sponsor who has 37 yes of sobriety...summed it up to me with the following.

"I don't have a clue as to who will make it and who won't. I have been wrong do many times I have given up trying to figure it out
And there it is.
Ken33xx is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 03:22 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by Ken33xx View Post
Disease? Obsession of the mind? Weak-will or just plain f-ed up?

Who knows?

All I am sure of is that I pick up one drink I am sure I will want a few more after that.





Although I have been in AA for many years I don't know a lot of members outside of the context of an AA meeting. Now, a lot of members talk a good game inside the rooms but how well they function outside in the world is what really counts.




No, but it is fun.




And there it is.
i loved the last part of your quote
and there it is : )

that is the truth as no one knows who will make it or not and i will take it one step futher
all i can tell anyone is i am sober today. i guess a lot of other people can stay sober for a day as well : )
desypete is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 03:23 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
Member
 
GracieLou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,785
Originally Posted by MIRecovery View Post
"I don't have a clue as to who will make it and who won't. I have been wrong so many times I have given up trying to figure it out
This!

I had a woman that is now a very good friend tell me that she thought when I walked in the rooms she said to herself "nope". I did not talk much at the start and I am still not one to speak up all the time.

She told me this because she wanted me to know she was wrong and that you can never ever tell who is going to make it and who doesn't. It also taught me never to do the same to someone else.

She said once I did open my mouth, she could hear that, while I had a ways to go, I got it. I understood the program.

You sponsor is right, we do not have a clue so why do we keep trying to find one?

It is sort of like drinking. I could not control it, so I stopped trying.

We are alike in many ways but there are more ways we are different. I doubt that every single variable that has happened in someone's life before they got to the rooms and with their personality taken into consideration that can predict a yes or a no and on top of that, it is not my job to do so.

My job is to help, if I can, and carry the message, not decide who takes it our how they take it.
GracieLou is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 04:54 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
Laozi Old Man
Thread Starter
 
Boleo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by GracieLou View Post
She said once I did open my mouth, she could hear that, while I had a ways to go, I got it. I understood the program.

You sponsor is right, we do not have a clue so why do we keep trying to find one?
I am not saying I can predict ahead of time who will and who will not follow directions. Just because a person says they will, does not gaurantee that they will follow through with it.

Nor am I saying I can predict who will and who will not continue to follow directions in the future. Promises and commitments are not "one & done" deals.

All I am saying is that those who are currently following directions have a far better chance staying sober tomorrow than those who simply don't drink ODAAT.

Boleo is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 04:58 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Here are my questions:

1) Did anyone in the world recover from alcoholism by way of a spiritual awakening before 1935?

2) What exactly defines a "real or chronic alcoholic"?

3) By his own account, Dee had a very debilitating addiction. From what I've read, he identifies as an alcoholic. Are some of you saying that because he recovered without AA that he is not really recovered or that he wasn't a chronic or real alcoholic to begin with? Because if that is the case, then I would like to see someone just go ahead and type out the words "Dee is not a real alcoholic". I would find that a strange statement. However, if I'm understanding correctly here, that's exactly what some of you are saying.

It is odd to me that a person would diminish how another person went about changing their life just because it doesn't match how they went about changing their life. The people that I know in AA who truly live the steps do not do this.
soberlicious is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 05:06 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
Member
 
ando68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Ireland.
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by Gottalife View Post
What ways? If there was an alternative to AA I would have found it.

"Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum."

I invite you to increase the list with the ways people were recovering before AA.
I spent 7 years in AA myself, a few years back and I firmly believed that there was no alternative to AA. my sponser reinforced this belief in me, along with many of the members. I have respect for AA as a mutual support group and it seems many benefit from attending the meetings. In my case though, I left mainly to seek alternative ways of dealing with my drinking, and I would without doubt fall into the category of alcoholic, although im reluctant to attach this label to myself today. Today I attend lifering for which no programme is required, no sponser, no meeting attendance requirement, infact very little outside a belief in your own ability to abstain required really and a plan of action set up by yourself. Mutual support is there in the meetings and again, I think people really benefit from this, I know I do. For myself though, its more about having somewhere to sit and share about difficulties or challenges im experiencing in my life today as opposed to using it as a place I can attribute all my sober success to. In my mind its an alternative, along with others previously mentioned by dee.
ando68 is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 07:00 AM
  # 56 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Originally Posted by Gottalife View Post
QUOTE=Dee74;4805721]



Temperance was nothing to do with treating alcoholism
.
are you taking into account the recovery that is administered in over 95% of recovery facilities? that came directly from American temperance ideology... nothing wrong with that..i just don't see how you wiggle out of that fact
caboblanco is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 07:07 AM
  # 57 (permalink)  
Member
 
resolute50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ma
Posts: 3,553
I think it's genetics.
BTW,this is over my head.
resolute50 is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 07:15 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vashon WA
Posts: 1,035
For me, the most important litmus test is the faith, ability and will to not pick up a drink, ever, for any reason. Everything else is over thinking it. I believe all the stories that I've heard about people trying to be moderate drinkers. This isn't to say that AA and working the steps doesn't work, just that the first step is the most important one.

Today, once again, I am thankful to not have a hangover. This is going to be a good week!
gaffo is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 07:37 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
Member
 
jdooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
I actually agree with Soberlicious - to me this thread seems more about being right at the cost of others with projections all over the place:-)
jdooner is offline  
Old 07-28-2014, 07:40 AM
  # 60 (permalink)  
Member
 
LBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
I was told yesterday by someone who sent me a text from a meeting last night that I wasn't an alcoholic. I just had a life event that made me stop drinking. ?????????????
Just because I told him I didn't need to do the step thing...
LBrain is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:14 AM.