What would you do
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
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Originally Posted by FT
slutty fashion icons.
It is my opinion that there is a spectrum of alcoholics and addicts. There are people who have experienced a variety of different things in life and have been activated at different points n life. Herein lies the challenge with most recovery programs. We don't fit into neat little boxes. However, there are components we can relate to and I find truth in Boleo's comments that many people with alcohol problems may lie at varying points on this addiction spectrum. What it takes for a long time heroin user might be different for a weekend valium binger. To me we need to be respectful however, in spite of what method or where we relate.
For me I tried various programs and ended up finding that a spiritual approached worked best. I relate to much of what is state in AA's BB. But I use some of RR's techniques daily after learning and practicing. I find it does nobody any good to state my program is better than yours, which is part of the genesis of this thread. Its a risk of finding sobriety and how do you carry that message.
Fenix and Boleo in a way your comments hit the nail on the head for me with this OP. Its not about, which one is better but what comes through to me is sharing just our experience in service to others. I believe if we are open and honest and courageous enough to share our experiences we will be able to make others comfortable they can desire what we have and provide how we achieved this.
For me I tried various programs and ended up finding that a spiritual approached worked best. I relate to much of what is state in AA's BB. But I use some of RR's techniques daily after learning and practicing. I find it does nobody any good to state my program is better than yours, which is part of the genesis of this thread. Its a risk of finding sobriety and how do you carry that message.
Fenix and Boleo in a way your comments hit the nail on the head for me with this OP. Its not about, which one is better but what comes through to me is sharing just our experience in service to others. I believe if we are open and honest and courageous enough to share our experiences we will be able to make others comfortable they can desire what we have and provide how we achieved this.
It's even more complex than that. Not only is the statement "not everyone is addicted" true, but not everyone who thinks they are addicted is actually addicted. People are sent into recovery by authority figures because they are on the road to addiction before they have the "obsession" component to addiction.
So what we have is a whole other group of people going around saying "All you gotta do is stop drinking like I did". As if willpower alone is the answer.
This throws a "Red Herring" into the recovery issue where those who stopped in time are sending a message to those who did not stop in time that willpower is the answer. So now we have at least 4 groups of drinkers and ex-drinkers;
Current responsible drinkers
Current irresponsible drinkers
Ex-drinkers who are not powerless
Powerless ex-drinkers.
So what we have is a whole other group of people going around saying "All you gotta do is stop drinking like I did". As if willpower alone is the answer.
This throws a "Red Herring" into the recovery issue where those who stopped in time are sending a message to those who did not stop in time that willpower is the answer. So now we have at least 4 groups of drinkers and ex-drinkers;
Current responsible drinkers
Current irresponsible drinkers
Ex-drinkers who are not powerless
Powerless ex-drinkers.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by Boleo
Do you have any "experience" with spiritual based recovery? Or are you trying to project your inexperience onto my experience?
Best example I can think of is the concept of "The point of no return" in airplane travel. 50% fuel means we can return to point of origin (Self Empowerment). 49% fuel means we are powerless to go back to point of origin. Where exactly that threshold is crossed is still a mystery to modern science. Even though the quantitative difference may only be a few gallons, the qualitative difference is insurmountable.
Best example I can think of is the concept of "The point of no return" in airplane travel. 50% fuel means we can return to point of origin (Self Empowerment). 49% fuel means we are powerless to go back to point of origin. Where exactly that threshold is crossed is still a mystery to modern science. Even though the quantitative difference may only be a few gallons, the qualitative difference is insurmountable.
Now that I am aware of just how dangerous a relapse can be - "Unreliable" recovery is not good enough for me, nor am I interested in pretty "good" recovery.
"Sometimes the good is the enemy of the best"
(Abe Lincoln)
Only a person who has experienced a failure to stay sober using willpower can describe it. Anything else is pure speculation and conjecture.
That's why we share our "Experience, Strength and Hope". Not our "Inexperience, Strength and Hope".
On the other hand, those who simply use willpower to stay sober do (quite often) pretend to know what alcoholics of my type need.
I myself quit smoking using willpower alone. I tried telling my sister who smoked 20 years longer than I did, that I had a solution that might help her.
Her response was "You really are clueless". I never tried giving another smoker advice ever again.
Either you have or have not crossed the "point of no return".
Only a person who has experienced a failure to stay sober using willpower can describe it. Anything else is pure speculation and conjecture.
That's why we share our "Experience, Strength and Hope". Not our "Inexperience, Strength and Hope".
Only a person who has experienced a failure to stay sober using willpower can describe it. Anything else is pure speculation and conjecture.
That's why we share our "Experience, Strength and Hope". Not our "Inexperience, Strength and Hope".
My experience actually matches a lot of the people on here. That's not inexperience just a different one. Even if I can't offer experience to someone that was in your situation I still have strength and hope. You said so yourself and 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
It's best all round if people stick to their own experience, and not their opinion of other people's experience.
Personal remarks are best not made at all, or confined to PM.
Thanks for your co-operation everyone
Dee
Moderator
SR
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Thanks for your co-operation everyone
Dee
Moderator
SR
You're half right. I do believe that anyone who can choose to not-drink ODAAT has not experienced the ISM component of alcohol-ISM (YET). Alcohol-ISM is a specific type of addiction that includes an obsession so powerful that willpower is rendered useless and only a Higher Power can compensate for it.
However, the idea that only 12 step recovery can lead a person to the type of Spiritual Awakening is completely foreign to me. I believe anyone who has a process that gets results with enlightenment can do it as well. Zen, Buddhism, Taoism, and The Spiritual Exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola are just a few of many other possibilities.
Now, as long as you want to use the "argumentum ad hominem" style of debating, lets talk about your "experience" for a minute. Do you have any "experience" with spiritual based recovery? Or are you trying to project your inexperience onto my experience?
However, the idea that only 12 step recovery can lead a person to the type of Spiritual Awakening is completely foreign to me. I believe anyone who has a process that gets results with enlightenment can do it as well. Zen, Buddhism, Taoism, and The Spiritual Exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola are just a few of many other possibilities.
Now, as long as you want to use the "argumentum ad hominem" style of debating, lets talk about your "experience" for a minute. Do you have any "experience" with spiritual based recovery? Or are you trying to project your inexperience onto my experience?
I'll just say that I believe even those people who suffer from what you label alcohol-ISM, can achieve and maintain sobriety through a number of different methods, including a spiritual experience and sheer willpower. I say this because I do not, and will never believe anyone is completely powerless and that willpower could ever be rendered completely useless.
Moreover, it would be arrogant of me to suggest there is only one solution for those who suffer from what you call alcohol-ISM. And not only arrogant, but potentially harmful to those who are still struggling.
I'll just say that I believe even those people who suffer from what you label alcohol-ISM, can achieve and maintain sobriety through a number of different methods, including a spiritual experience and sheer willpower. I say this because I do not, and will never believe anyone is completely powerless and that willpower could ever be rendered completely useless.
Yet, towards the end for me I felt the same emotions of being powerless. I did not want the cocaine, I needed it. I did not want the drinks, I needed them. I consciously would tell myself I was not going to have a drink but then I would rationalize starting tomorrow. I hired someone to try and keep me away form the drugs. They could not. Willpower? I call this insanity. I was insane and utterly powerless to boot.
I too found the concept of being powerless over something off-putting at first. Hell my willpower had saved me, so I had thought. I actually did rise out of the ashes like a Phoenix. Rich and powerful. I could use my wallet to get whatever I wanted. Except authenticity, contentment, and sober. My willpower kept me in active addiction for well too long actually. Because when you get down to it I was actually powerless over alcohol, cocaine, and sex. Cigarettes I used Rational Recovery's AVRT, as I was not powerless. Same with processed sugars and wheat and it works well when your not powerless over something.
It goes both ways. Telling someone to use willpower when they have tried over and over is just as offensive (and dangerous) as telling someone they were powerless when they were not. Its alright you did not get as bad as me or maybe did not have the same experiences...I am happy to did not have to endure the same horrors. But don't comment on my experiences or my feelings, just as others should not project onto you.
I'll just say that I believe even those people who suffer from what you label alcohol-ISM, can achieve and maintain sobriety through a number of different methods, including a spiritual experience and sheer willpower. I say this because I do not, and will never believe anyone is completely powerless and that willpower could ever be rendered completely useless.
I do not believe a spiritual experience is always required to resolve the above scenarios. I myself do have a spiritual solution, and from this position, and from my life journey, it is clear to me that willpower can as well have its place in resolving flight-or-fight scenarios, including addiction recovery and sober lifestyles thereafter.
Importantly, my understanding of "willpower" is more defined as being about "freewill power" than simplistic willpower. Freewill is a better descriptive of how my own empowerment of self works for me, whereas willpower not so much describes my self-empowerment.
Alcoholics and alcoholism are not best defined as being one-size-fits-all. It is unfortunate that oppositional cliques yet persist naysaying the other. At the end of the day, we all have our relevant experiences on what is and is not alcoholism and being or not being an alcoholic. I think it best to not exclude or include others in generalities of definitions.
It goes both ways. Telling someone to use willpower when they have tried over and over is just as offensive (and dangerous) as telling someone they were powerless when they were not. Its alright you did not get as bad as me or maybe did not have the same experiences...I am happy to did not have to endure the same horrors. But don't comment on my experiences or my feelings, just as others should not project onto you.
I fully concede that many addicts need help, and I fully concede that many alcoholics may need a spiritual experience to achieve sobriety. However, I am suggesting that some addicts may (and have) overcome their addicton primarily through willpower.
I'm sorry for the abuse you suffered, no child should ever have to go through that, and I understand how that kind of abuse can profoundly impact the child's adult life. I used the word "completely" for a reason, as I understand that many addicts are in such a bad state, they probably are all but powerless to stop their addiction. But any rock-bottom addict who achieves sobriety, had to at least put some effort (power) into getting sober, even if it was just agreeing to rehab, or dragging their butt to a meeting, finding a sponsor and working the Steps.
We could argue all day what "powerless" means, but IMO it's not a productive conversation. I'm completely open to whatever works for the individual alcoholic/addict. And I try very hard to respect everyone's sobriety.
We are good Feenix - I should not have used my expereince in this way. It only serves to undermine my recovery efforts to move through this. I appreciate your concerns, thanks.
The point I meant to make and needed not go to these lengths is I see both sides of the recovery argument between powerless and empowerment. Both have a role in recovery and we should not try to shoot each other in the process to make one method look more appealing (speaking of myself here). This is the classic alcoholic behavior of old, as it only hurts ourselves. I know your post was from a place of good and integris to who you are. After rereading I think we see things more similar than dissimilar.
I respect the triumphs you, Soberlicious, Freshstart and others have made through self empowering!!!
The point I meant to make and needed not go to these lengths is I see both sides of the recovery argument between powerless and empowerment. Both have a role in recovery and we should not try to shoot each other in the process to make one method look more appealing (speaking of myself here). This is the classic alcoholic behavior of old, as it only hurts ourselves. I know your post was from a place of good and integris to who you are. After rereading I think we see things more similar than dissimilar.
I respect the triumphs you, Soberlicious, Freshstart and others have made through self empowering!!!
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