What would you do
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
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on the subject of hiv / aids
about 25 years ago a brother in law who is gay contacted hiv and in those days it meant death as the fear and panic was widespread and it was called the gay plague then
anyway he ended up getting it and we were all scared he was going to die, lucky for him medicne had arrived on the scene that could slow it down and then more medicene come forward that lead him to lead a normal life and just get on with it
he is still alive and kicking today with no signs of ill health so it worked to give him a good life
however he did end up giving it to another guy many years ago and the guy broke his nose in a fight once he had found out as he hadnt told him he carried hiv
he prosecuted the guy who broke his nose and got damages for it.
how on earth he didnt get charged with attempted murder by passing it on to an unsuspecting victim i will never know
but they are poles apart in terms of illness and while i understand the point your trying to make i think if people know someone is hiv they will alway make sure they dont drink out of the same glass or eat from the same plate
they will not feel sorry for them in the way that you might think they will still put there own safety first
if you think the world should feel sorry for alcoholics they never will as its self induced is how the world looks at it
and in a way i am glad thats the case other wise we would have a world with no morals for right and wrong in life
we only change because we end up waking up and knowing what we are doing is wrong if it wasnt wrong we would still be doing it
but if we were not judged by the outside world then were would that feeling come from ?
shame guilt and remorse
if it was ok to get drunk or take a drug and commit crimes and we get let off because we are poor alcoholics suffering from an illness well you will agree we will milk the system dry
about 25 years ago a brother in law who is gay contacted hiv and in those days it meant death as the fear and panic was widespread and it was called the gay plague then
anyway he ended up getting it and we were all scared he was going to die, lucky for him medicne had arrived on the scene that could slow it down and then more medicene come forward that lead him to lead a normal life and just get on with it
he is still alive and kicking today with no signs of ill health so it worked to give him a good life
however he did end up giving it to another guy many years ago and the guy broke his nose in a fight once he had found out as he hadnt told him he carried hiv
he prosecuted the guy who broke his nose and got damages for it.
how on earth he didnt get charged with attempted murder by passing it on to an unsuspecting victim i will never know
but they are poles apart in terms of illness and while i understand the point your trying to make i think if people know someone is hiv they will alway make sure they dont drink out of the same glass or eat from the same plate
they will not feel sorry for them in the way that you might think they will still put there own safety first
if you think the world should feel sorry for alcoholics they never will as its self induced is how the world looks at it
and in a way i am glad thats the case other wise we would have a world with no morals for right and wrong in life
we only change because we end up waking up and knowing what we are doing is wrong if it wasnt wrong we would still be doing it
but if we were not judged by the outside world then were would that feeling come from ?
shame guilt and remorse
if it was ok to get drunk or take a drug and commit crimes and we get let off because we are poor alcoholics suffering from an illness well you will agree we will milk the system dry
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Originally Posted by jdooner 
...While addiction is more complex, I wonder if the reduction in addiction will follow a similar pattern?
But like many alcoholics I do enjoy reading about this or that theory which suggests I might be able to drink reasonably.
Yet, in the end I just don't want to get back on that merry go around again.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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If I'm correctly reading your subtext JD, you are perhaps toying with the idea of presenting a more public face in regards to your resolution of addiction(s)?
Since you are a more "public" figure than many and coming from a paradigm of "success",
like you I would have some concern for the blowback of public opinion, but on the other hand,
the phenomenal self has little to due ultimately with the greater self, and that's the part of you where the focus is now.
So in one sense public opinion of that little me is not important,
but of course the very people you are trying to reach will be influenced and moved by that part of you if that's where they are in their journey.
An interesting paradox.
Like following the drink out to the end, what are the scenarios if you follow this idea out?
Are you OK with some negative backchanneling if you can help others who are ready to hear about your experience?
Remember Spock--"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one."
You have power and to wield it for good seems laudable to me.
Since you are a more "public" figure than many and coming from a paradigm of "success",
like you I would have some concern for the blowback of public opinion, but on the other hand,
the phenomenal self has little to due ultimately with the greater self, and that's the part of you where the focus is now.
So in one sense public opinion of that little me is not important,
but of course the very people you are trying to reach will be influenced and moved by that part of you if that's where they are in their journey.
An interesting paradox.
Like following the drink out to the end, what are the scenarios if you follow this idea out?
Are you OK with some negative backchanneling if you can help others who are ready to hear about your experience?
Remember Spock--"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one."
You have power and to wield it for good seems laudable to me.
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Hawkeye - you are spot on. I don't know the answer, which is what prompted the OP. I have never hidden my addiction. But I did hide my true self under lies, money, false bravado. I believe this repelled any chance of genuine relationships and left remoras and sycophants around me. With the shedding of my skin so have these people disappeared.
While early this I believe has more to do with purpose and existential discovery. I used to be focused on the zeros on my W2, 5, 6, 7, can I get to 8 - I am seeing the irrelevancy of it all. My ability to help change a life is more valuable economically and socially than donating $1M to some charity to get my name on a plaque. This removes guilt vs. provide true satisfaction. My ability to affect real change lies in others that I can touch.
This was exactly how the William Clinton Foundation helped deal with HIV/AIDS in Africa, which is what prompted this OP, as confusing as it might be.
Croissant - I am sorry if I offended, it was not my intention. I do eat spinach daily - I love those Stoufers Spinach Souflees.
While early this I believe has more to do with purpose and existential discovery. I used to be focused on the zeros on my W2, 5, 6, 7, can I get to 8 - I am seeing the irrelevancy of it all. My ability to help change a life is more valuable economically and socially than donating $1M to some charity to get my name on a plaque. This removes guilt vs. provide true satisfaction. My ability to affect real change lies in others that I can touch.
This was exactly how the William Clinton Foundation helped deal with HIV/AIDS in Africa, which is what prompted this OP, as confusing as it might be.
Croissant - I am sorry if I offended, it was not my intention. I do eat spinach daily - I love those Stoufers Spinach Souflees.
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I'm not sure HIV infection/AIDS is simpler than addiction in terms of physiology, but a viral disease is definitely less varied regarding the forms of it and the social impact, I would say. There are many different types of addictions even if we only speak about substance addictions and disregard other, "behavioral" addictions (many of which are not any less debilitating). Also, there are always new types of addictions coming into the picture over time - new drugs, or just think about the internet that has become a problem to many. So I would say addiction is much more complex in terms of etiology.
I think that addiction is, and will probably always be, more stably stigmatized than something like HIV, exactly because many perceive active addiction as a personality flaw and not an organic disease. Also, HIV/AIDS sufferers (simply just due to their viral disease) don't typically end up in conflicts with the law, violence, and other destructive acts.
On the anonymity: I think it's most often celebrities that come out of the closet and talk about their struggles, try to advocate and raise public awareness, be it HIV or addiction. It's part of human nature that we tend to "forgive" more easily and accept the "flaws" of people in the limelight or with some sort of great achievement. The "hero" phenomenon. I think there have been many people like that talking about their addiction and recovery in public. The problem is that the majority are not these people but those that suffer in silence in everyday life.
The anonymity has been a recurring question for me. The reason being is because due to my profession, in principle I could have lots of opportunities to talk about the "reality" of addiction/recovery both in professional circuits and publicly. I discussed the question of anonymity with quite a few people confidentially, and every single time I was discouraged to break mine. I've recently done some seminars on recovery, based on what I learned about it from my own experience (but not talking about my experience), and people were always very interested. I never directly revealed that it's also my problem and I'm speaking from first hand experience... and people never asked me this question. I wonder if all the information I'd provided was not revealing enough, though...
I often feel I would be a good person to get out of the closet with this, also because I don't have a family so it's not like my kids would be stigmatized for my problems innocently. I also tend to feel that if someone is in recovery and is able to maintain their sobriety indefinitely, it's much less likely that others would attach a negative image to it, since I would be talking about the past that they had never seen. I'm undecided just yet, but I'm sure this issue will keep coming back for me.
I think that addiction is, and will probably always be, more stably stigmatized than something like HIV, exactly because many perceive active addiction as a personality flaw and not an organic disease. Also, HIV/AIDS sufferers (simply just due to their viral disease) don't typically end up in conflicts with the law, violence, and other destructive acts.
On the anonymity: I think it's most often celebrities that come out of the closet and talk about their struggles, try to advocate and raise public awareness, be it HIV or addiction. It's part of human nature that we tend to "forgive" more easily and accept the "flaws" of people in the limelight or with some sort of great achievement. The "hero" phenomenon. I think there have been many people like that talking about their addiction and recovery in public. The problem is that the majority are not these people but those that suffer in silence in everyday life.
The anonymity has been a recurring question for me. The reason being is because due to my profession, in principle I could have lots of opportunities to talk about the "reality" of addiction/recovery both in professional circuits and publicly. I discussed the question of anonymity with quite a few people confidentially, and every single time I was discouraged to break mine. I've recently done some seminars on recovery, based on what I learned about it from my own experience (but not talking about my experience), and people were always very interested. I never directly revealed that it's also my problem and I'm speaking from first hand experience... and people never asked me this question. I wonder if all the information I'd provided was not revealing enough, though...
I often feel I would be a good person to get out of the closet with this, also because I don't have a family so it's not like my kids would be stigmatized for my problems innocently. I also tend to feel that if someone is in recovery and is able to maintain their sobriety indefinitely, it's much less likely that others would attach a negative image to it, since I would be talking about the past that they had never seen. I'm undecided just yet, but I'm sure this issue will keep coming back for me.
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Originally Posted by haennie
So I would say addiction is much more complex in terms of etiology.
I too remain undecided, which is why I put it out there. My professional technologies and personal interests are beginning to converge though. And because of my professional achievements I am able to have a greater voice. However, this I realize should not be taken lightly or in a cavalier manner. There are personal implications with my children and family, extended family and people that rely on me professionally to earn their incomes and support their families. But there is a seed of an idea in my head and I will continue to nurture the idea and see if it grows or not.
DB1105 - I guess is the queen did have balls she might be considering coming out of the closet too?
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Anyone can talk about their addiction and that they are in recovery and do all the good they can.
If AA helped you, and you believe in the program, then honor it's traditions including 11 "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films."
If one does that, then all is well. Anyone can out themselves and share the joy they find in recovery, and thus encourage many toward the same.
HIV is very different. You can't cure it by not having sex. You can stop alcoholism by not drinking. Also I can't give alcoholism to someone else. Maybe the genetic part, but no one catches it from me.
jdooner if you feel you can do good by sharing your before and after story I say go for it. But follow traditions.
If AA helped you, and you believe in the program, then honor it's traditions including 11 "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films."
If one does that, then all is well. Anyone can out themselves and share the joy they find in recovery, and thus encourage many toward the same.
HIV is very different. You can't cure it by not having sex. You can stop alcoholism by not drinking. Also I can't give alcoholism to someone else. Maybe the genetic part, but no one catches it from me.
jdooner if you feel you can do good by sharing your before and after story I say go for it. But follow traditions.
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What about something else besides the usual "stand up and tell your story"?
A public face, thanks to media inculcation, has undeniable private leverage.
What would it take to put real weight on shifting the underlying acceptance of
addiction as a given?
Is it possible to synthesize bottom-up and top-down frames into something thicker than both?
A public face, thanks to media inculcation, has undeniable private leverage.
What would it take to put real weight on shifting the underlying acceptance of
addiction as a given?
Is it possible to synthesize bottom-up and top-down frames into something thicker than both?
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Hawkeye...I am realyl not sure. It also makes it difficult to provide only bits and pieces on here to keep my anonymity too, lol. Directionally it seems this is where things are going no matter how many want to challenge this idea. Its sort of like fighting the internet in '95, going to get steamrolled at some point.
Sometimes when a thoughts sticks with me there is reason to flesh it out. I don't know the answers or I would not have put it out there. I do think its an interesting idea though. I also think while there are many differences there are some philosophical similarities to HIV/AIDS in terms of social acceptance, which is born from education.
Sometimes when a thoughts sticks with me there is reason to flesh it out. I don't know the answers or I would not have put it out there. I do think its an interesting idea though. I also think while there are many differences there are some philosophical similarities to HIV/AIDS in terms of social acceptance, which is born from education.
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at the end of the day your free to do as you wish in aa jd
the traditions are not orders just merely suggestions, like the aa program and everything else in aa
so the choice is yours as to what you do or anyone else who feels the need to tell the world there an alcoholic
but dont be surprised if the world doesnt take a blind bit of notice as no one is that important that the world will stop because there an alcoholic
but if you feel your that important that the world will sit up and take notice then please go ahead and prove me wrong : )
i well remember hearing the trads read out in early days and the part about remaining anonymous at the level of press radio tv and films
i had this vision that the world would be sending photographers around to all the aa meetings i attended just because i was a member of it lol
who the hell am i i was soon told : )
the traditions are not orders just merely suggestions, like the aa program and everything else in aa
so the choice is yours as to what you do or anyone else who feels the need to tell the world there an alcoholic
but dont be surprised if the world doesnt take a blind bit of notice as no one is that important that the world will stop because there an alcoholic
but if you feel your that important that the world will sit up and take notice then please go ahead and prove me wrong : )
i well remember hearing the trads read out in early days and the part about remaining anonymous at the level of press radio tv and films
i had this vision that the world would be sending photographers around to all the aa meetings i attended just because i was a member of it lol
who the hell am i i was soon told : )
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Lol Desy...maybe this just a manifestation of my ego? I am sure nobody would care:-) I am not that special and not unique with respect to my addictions. It was just a thought, so I put it out there. I get thoughts about a drink sometimes too and I put those out there too. I appreciate the feedback.
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Originally Posted by trachemys
And the number one reason for stigmatization of addicts is:
Most addicts are not self-recognized. We who are remind them they have a problem they will not address.
Just IMHO, YMMV, HYOH.
Most addicts are not self-recognized. We who are remind them they have a problem they will not address.
Just IMHO, YMMV, HYOH.
i am an alcoholic and i suffer from an illness called alcoholism
the ism part stands for i self me
i have a huge ego and always think i am right, i also think others will worship me for my wisdom if i had any when really they think i am nuts and there probably right but i dont see it : )
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Originally Posted by desypete
i have a huge ego and always think i am right, i also think others will worship me for my wisdom if i had any when really they think i am nuts and there probably right but i dont see it : )
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Originally Posted by trachemys
See? That level of self-honesty scares people.
Adventures In SpaceTime
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Anonymity is important on many levels, not just with regards to AA. When one speaks out as an addict/alcoholic in recovery/recovered terms and experiences, one also must be ready to deal with the consequences of one's own history. Things can become real complicated in quick fashion, and these additional complications can threaten the easy going and peaceful life that sobriety originally offered/offers the addict/alcoholic.
I'm of the opinion not much is going to change in the addiction recovery industry until a medical/scientific breakthrough is observed. Peoples experiences are a dime a dozen in the real world now of the internet and reality tv. Weirdness sells. Many people want the truth all bent out and stretched and personalized now more than ever. This is the age of "I" no less. Celebrity status has come full circle, and now anybody can be famous enough if they have what sells or at least have what people think is cool enough to blog about or whatever.
I would advise caution in anyone thinking they have the next best idea for recovery innovation...
Just sayin'
I'm of the opinion not much is going to change in the addiction recovery industry until a medical/scientific breakthrough is observed. Peoples experiences are a dime a dozen in the real world now of the internet and reality tv. Weirdness sells. Many people want the truth all bent out and stretched and personalized now more than ever. This is the age of "I" no less. Celebrity status has come full circle, and now anybody can be famous enough if they have what sells or at least have what people think is cool enough to blog about or whatever.
I would advise caution in anyone thinking they have the next best idea for recovery innovation...
Just sayin'
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Interesting ideas, JD.
There is a social element to drinking embraced with in the public awareness that HIV/AIDS doesn't have. There is a tolerance level for those who drink, and legal limits on consumption, etc. AIDS has nothing going for it with any upside. This makes a huge difference in how the public has supported research and public understanding of the realities of HIV/AIDS.
I worked with addicted residents who also had HIV which causes AIDS. This was difficult work, as they had to be somewhat isolated because of runaway fears of contagions. This was also back in 1983/84/85. AIDS was clinically discovered only in 1981. There was plenty of misunderstandings and downright hatred for those suffering with AIDS. Today things are very different.
Our work with such cases was limited and eventually ended as funding sources became unhappy and legally things were all over the place on the responsibilities towards others if they should somehow become infected with HIV by accidental blood transfusion or sexual transmission (the residence served both male and female). It later became more sensible to have hospices devoted to AIDS clients and bring in addiction help directly to them. There was plenty of moral judgments on whether AIDS patients should declare themselves infected when attending events - such as AA and church functions, etc. It was pretty messy, and the human misery was obvious. Good people were dying from their addictions while others argued about protecting themselves. In fact, my work with such clients changed my career path, and not for the better either. I made some serious enemies in my refusal to wholesale abandon HIV infected patients to their addictions. I also made some serious friends as well. The early years of public awareness of HIV/AIDS was brutal. We would do public seminars which had some positive effects eventually. I don't regret my choices to advocate on my clients holistic well-being.
I don't think we can have the same momentum of results with alcoholism or addiction in the public awareness for the sure reason that drinking is not always a problem for drinkers, where as HIV/AIDS is without exception a real problem for everybody. This makes all the difference.
There is a social element to drinking embraced with in the public awareness that HIV/AIDS doesn't have. There is a tolerance level for those who drink, and legal limits on consumption, etc. AIDS has nothing going for it with any upside. This makes a huge difference in how the public has supported research and public understanding of the realities of HIV/AIDS.
I worked with addicted residents who also had HIV which causes AIDS. This was difficult work, as they had to be somewhat isolated because of runaway fears of contagions. This was also back in 1983/84/85. AIDS was clinically discovered only in 1981. There was plenty of misunderstandings and downright hatred for those suffering with AIDS. Today things are very different.
Our work with such cases was limited and eventually ended as funding sources became unhappy and legally things were all over the place on the responsibilities towards others if they should somehow become infected with HIV by accidental blood transfusion or sexual transmission (the residence served both male and female). It later became more sensible to have hospices devoted to AIDS clients and bring in addiction help directly to them. There was plenty of moral judgments on whether AIDS patients should declare themselves infected when attending events - such as AA and church functions, etc. It was pretty messy, and the human misery was obvious. Good people were dying from their addictions while others argued about protecting themselves. In fact, my work with such clients changed my career path, and not for the better either. I made some serious enemies in my refusal to wholesale abandon HIV infected patients to their addictions. I also made some serious friends as well.
The early years of public awareness of HIV/AIDS was brutal. We would do public seminars which had some positive effects eventually. I don't regret my choices to advocate on my clients holistic well-being. I don't think we can have the same momentum of results with alcoholism or addiction in the public awareness for the sure reason that drinking is not always a problem for drinkers, where as HIV/AIDS is without exception a real problem for everybody. This makes all the difference.
I was in graduate school and doing pre- and post- test HIV counseling for the NYC Dept. of Health in 1985, so I can vouch for the historical accuracy, and the political, social and economic realities you've described so well in your comments.
To say the very least, working in that often frantic and always heartbreaking environment changed the lives of a great many people.
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