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I hate when people say it's a choice.

Old 04-13-2014, 03:41 PM
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It didn't work for me caboblanco and I know I'm not alone. After seven years of jails and institutions I finally found a way to relate to and accept a higher power and for me, it was a huge relief that I didn't have to bear the weight alone. I knew I was close to death and realizing this is what it took me to stop killing myself.
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Old 04-13-2014, 03:43 PM
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Depression, and other mental/spiritual problems go hand-in-hand with addiction, in my experience. They become a vicious cycle feeding on each other.
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Old 04-13-2014, 03:54 PM
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Speaking of mental/spiritual issues and alcoholism... I picked my early 20's daughter up from work a little while ago and she was insanely drunk. I want to help her but unfortunately I'm too close to do so. She's caught up in the blame game, I've gone through, and guess who she blames the most.

Fortunately though, she mentioned someone, we both know, who offered to help her by being her sponsor. Also fortunately, I know where he's going to be from 8-9PM tonight. He'll be greeting at his home group meeting at a church a few blocks from me. I'm leaving soon to go speak with him mas he'll be there early. My daughter asked me to contact him via facebook and I tried but this will be faster.
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Old 04-13-2014, 04:00 PM
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I seems people are already aware of the "no choice" philosophy before they even decide to quit. It has been part of this culture for a long time. If that idea was never made popular would we be better off of worse or no different? i was a aware of it as a child way

before I started drinking. Movies and Literature that aren't even about addiction, conversations with people. Then it was taught to me by many. Depression which I have experienced to horrible lows is believable even to someone who hasn't experienced it.

Having no control over voluntary physical actions goes against science. Its not the same thing.
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Old 04-13-2014, 05:09 PM
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Well not to split hair over semantics, but "NO" choice can be problematic and its understandable why people (especially non addicts) may take issue with that terminology...and ultimately just isnt true. Now something along the lines of "OVERWHELMING/INSIDIOUS/ALL-CONSUMING compulsion" is far more sensible I feel.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieLou View Post
I chose to call AA, I chose to go to AA and I chose to get help.

I think it is more what you do with the choice. You can choose to work the program, take suggestions, do the steps, give back and learn to live sober.

Or

You can choose not to.
Lost the power of choice with regard to alcohol GracieLou.

We are not talking about choices in life, in general here.

This is about alcohol.
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Old 04-15-2014, 02:55 AM
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4th edition pg. 317:

"When I am willing to do the right thing, I am rewarded
with an inner peace no amount of liquor could
ever provide. When I am unwilling to do the right
thing, I become restless, irritable, and discontent. It is
always my choice.
Through the Twelve Steps, I have
been granted the gift of choice. I am no longer at the
mercy of a disease that tells me the only answer is to
drink. If willingness is the key to unlock the gates of
hell, it is action that opens those doors so that we may
walk freely among the living".
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Old 04-15-2014, 03:32 AM
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The progression of alcoholism, if the alcoholic continues to drink, is always insanity or death. Alcoholics on this journey get to know this, yet many continue to drink.

Is this sane behaviour? Are they making sane choices? If their choices are not sane, are they really choices or has the alcoholism taken over?

On Fridays I sometime go to an institutional meeting. This place is for end stage alcoholics who continue to make the choice to drink. Our society doesn't consider this sane or safe behaviour so they are committed for treatment, I use the term loosely, for a period of 6 months under the alcoholism and drug dependency act. They have no choice in this.

Most of them are the walking dead. They refuse to accept they have any problem, they deny any responsibility, even though they are near the end, their friends, family and authorities have gone to desperate lengths to save them, they still want to drink and will do so at the first opportunity.

They have been told their next stop will be the Korsakovs ward or the graveyard, and I have seen many make the transition. It's like watching the light die as the torch battery goes flat.

And people say it's merely a matter of choice? I spent time in a Korsakovs ward in my late teens. It was meant to scare me sober. I continued to drink. Not because I wasn't scared, but because I could not stop. Very nearly met the same fate, and I can assure you, it was not a matter of choice.
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Old 04-15-2014, 04:41 AM
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I have finally seen the light about giving everything to God on a daily, sometimes hourly basis. I used to hand a few things of my life over to Him when it had gotten really bad, but I held on to drinking for a long time. (God doesn't understand, I NEED to drink. I can handle it.) Ha! Now I give Him everything . . . . every conversation, every bad habit (currently working on overspending, I held on to that longer than drinking), every decision. Life is so much easier, healthier, simpler these days . . . . Tap into this power. He lies within you, in your heart.
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Old 04-15-2014, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by caboblanco View Post
For me it's a choice. everything. To become an alcohol addict. To quit alcohol. I keep it simple. The subcosncious takes over when the conscious is asleep. I can use the conscious to take over the subconscious. I think we know when we are drinking that it is a choice. We don't need people to tell us we are feathers in the wind
This ^. I'm responsible for the using and I'm responsible for the stopping.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:24 PM
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I am sorry but every time you put a drink to your lips it is a choice. I am not saying this to argue with you. I am saying this because as soon as you realize that is a choice you can start choosing to not drink.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:05 PM
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i know addiction is so powerful. and sometimes people really want it.

but now i have been sober for 16 months. i made the choice to stay sober for 16 months. and i did make that choice, just like i made the choice to get drunk before getting sober.

we all make choices every day. some good, some bad, and some just does not matter.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:11 PM
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I feel I always had a choice of whether I drank or not. I also got to where I could not find the power within myself to make the right choice, one day at a time. Since it became clear to me that I was powerless over alcohol, it became obvious to me that I needed a power greater than myself. It took me years to find it but I feel I finally did and now have only occasional, slight thoughts of drinking pop into my head. I believe one day these will pass entirely. It took years for me to get to this point. Others take longer or never get here. Many take less. The sooner the better.
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:45 AM
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I just was reminded of this post and had to chime in. I found something from AA's Big Book.

pg.24
At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail.
This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected. The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet ob*
scure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago.We are without defense against the first drink.


Loss of the power of choice is specifically referenced in the big book. In my opinion it's the very definition of the disease. The only choice we have is to "surrender" and seek help (AA, higher power, etc).

If I was in your shoes, what I would feel frustrated about is the fact that your co-workers are exhibiting what sounds like value judgments. That these people deserve their fate because they've chosen to be sick. Underlying that is a complete blind-eye to the fact that it's a disease. How would society react if a politician openly said something like that about a
cancer patient? "hey, those cancer patients need to buck up and choose a different path to health." Yep, I personally get the feeling of disgust. Wait a minute, you're blaming the person for their disease? I understand that there's a "choice" to seek help for alcoholics (analogous to a cancer patient going to a doctor). But at the same time, isn't the denial and refusing help actually part of the disease? If a cancer patient has a tumor in their brain (like my friend did) they actually ask you if there was a noticeable change in personality. Would the person get blamed for their behavior? Nope, the disease would. At the same time, if the tumor's pressure on the brain was so "bad" that my friend starts attacking me verbally and physically, wouldn't I still avoid him for my own personal safety (but love him from afar?). I would suppose that amends would be about acknowledging the behavior and to maintain sobriety and stop repeating abusive behavior? Make amends one day at a time?

IMHO, there's a way to be compassionate about the person with the disease of alcoholism but also maintain your own personal boundaries and keeping ourselves physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually safe. Your co-workers sound like they're lacking some compassion. Maybe it gets really hard though - maybe they're feeling frustrated at the sickness and point their fingers in the wrong direction - at the people with the sickness. It's frustrating enough with one alcoholic that's dying in my life (my father) and working on my own sobriety. I can't imagine how frustrating it might be if you have much more exposure with people suffering from alcoholism (who are not in recovery). I'm hearing a mixed message from me - hmmm. Maybe some understanding of their frustration might help? Sometimes I get caught up in the fantasy that my dad will get better that he'll come to AA with me and do a literal 180 - or I think wth, why doesn't he get off his a** and seek help? The frustration is understandable. How they treat the alcoholic is another thing entirely though.

Sorry - I think I'm rambling.

Anyways, just my two cents. Take what you like and leave the rest.
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by thotful View Post
lost the power of choice in drink
Thanks thoughtful. I looked and see that too. Worth more than 2 cents to me but boils down to semantics really. Same idea as powerless. Not surprising the later chapters that were added later from various sources are somewhat different than Bill W.'s & Dr. Bob's original text.
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:09 PM
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I hate when people say it's a choice.
I always hated that too when I was in the throes of addiction. It said to me, "You are responsible for making choices in your life. You need to roll up your sleeves and do the hardest thing in your life, for yourself, and for your loved ones to whom you have a moral responsibility. No one can do it for you."

That p*ssed me off to no end because I didn't want to. I actually believed I couldn't.

But much of the anger about others saying I had a choice actually came from a place way deep down inside me...that place in my gut that knew they were right.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:23 PM
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Well put soberlicious.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SoulSister View Post
Lost the power of choice with regard to alcohol GracieLou.

We are not talking about choices in life, in general here.

This is about alcohol.
I am talking about alcohol, I am an alcoholic. The choice came when I admitted it. When I finally after 25 years admitted I was one, then I had a choice.

Do something about it or not. Simple really. I am not saying it was simple to stand by that choice, it was not, it was f*cking hard, but it was my choice just as if I decide to pick up again, it is my choice.

I have tools to use and people I can call, it is my choice to use them and to call them, if I don't, if I chose not to then it is because I want to drink, simple.

I am no longer fooling myself into thinking I can drink again. I can't, period. If I do, it will be my choice. I would have to drive to the store, buy it, drive home and drown myself. That would be a choice.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by polaris View Post
Well not to split hair over semantics, but "NO" choice can be problematic and its understandable why people (especially non addicts) may take issue with that terminology...and ultimately just isnt true. Now something along the lines of "OVERWHELMING/INSIDIOUS/ALL-CONSUMING compulsion" is far more sensible I feel.
Polaris, this is well-stated.

"OVERWHELMING/INSIDIOUS/ALL-CONSUMING compulsion" doesn't roll off the tongue as easily as Powerless, but your description is probably more accurate.

The semantics of "Powerless over alcohol" are just that, semantics.

People who can have a couple drinks and quit are not on Sober Recovery looking for a solution. They aren't typing "alcoholism" into their browser bar. Obviously those of us with a drinking problem have lost the power to stop at two. Or one. We are, in fact, powerless.

So, arguing semantics is just...I don't know...like cutting the lawn with nail clippers.

Language isn't our issue, life and death drinking is.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
Language isn't our issue, life and death drinking is.
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