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Old 08-19-2013, 10:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Why do we have to make things more complicated then they are?

Recovery circles make up these theories on alcoholism. The alcoholic personality, the Alcoholic Voice, the roles of an alcoholic family, things we

NEED to do if we are an alcoholic and so on. Why can't there be one recovery method that just sticks to hard science and thats it? Is that alcoholic

voice nothing other then our own thoughts and wants? Why does it have to be some separate entity that we didn't create? The enabler is always dragged

into the situation. There is no enabler because you have total control over your own drinking. Every alcoholic can find a so-called enabler by the

definition created for it. Your employer is an enabler. All we have to do is stop drinking. Does bringing in all these made up tools really help people get sober? Shouldn't we keep things factual and simple?
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:16 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Got me... If I knew I'd be a bajllionaire!!!!! LOL. I always think too much. Part of my personality.....
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
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All we have to do is stop drinking.



I'm sorry, forgive me for laughing because you're speaking logically and I get that. However, it puts me in mind of my husband. He can't understand why so many people would risk everything and can't do what it takes to solve the problem by just simply putting the drink down.

To me, the closest I can come to the equivalent of your statement is to bring up everything in the world that's happening right now with war and terrorism. I mean, can't we all just get along?
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:35 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527 View Post


I'm sorry, forgive me for laughing because you're speaking logically and I get that. However, it puts me in mind of my husband. He can't understand why so many people would risk everything and can't do what it takes to solve the problem by just simply putting the drink down.

To me, the closest I can come to the equivalent of your statement is to bring up everything in the world that's happening right now with war and terrorism. I mean, can't we all just get along?
So you think these sort of tools helped you stay sober Lady? I hardly think one persons alcoholism can be compared to war and global terrorism
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:41 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Logically, why should we ever drink in the first place, when we know we have no control over our it. Why don't we put down the glass as soon as the problem presents itself?

There is nothing logical about alcoholism. I think that we use these images and tools because they make some kind of sense to our warped minds. It may not be scientifically true that there is a separate voice in our heads telling us to drink, but it sure FEELS that way! Even Sigmund Freud acknowledged the AV, except he called it the "Id".

Oh that we were all like Spock..."That is not logical!"
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:44 AM   #6 (permalink)
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The problem is what is fact? Even the medical 'facts' around addiction are debated. And knowing facts does not translate into action. Some people need concepts such as AVRT to help them, or a spiritual solution. I think all recovery methods advocate keeping it simple though, it's usually the alcoholic that makes things complicated. I appreciate the sentiment though. I posted something similar in early recovery because I found the whole recovery thing just so overwhelming.
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:47 AM   #7 (permalink)
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caboblanco, I can tell you, far beyond the shadow of a doubt that AA, recognizing what my AV is and preplanning how to get past it, this message board, and an excellent support system are the reasons that I am sober today.

I have had 3 serious attempts at getting sober previously. One was white knuckling which is your theory of "just stop drinking". The second and third were sitting like a bump on a log at AA meetings and also trying the cognitive approach in SMART Recovery. This final time I am in AA and working the program as it's intended to be worked. Along with the other tools that I use that I mentioned previously.

Here's what I found. There are various degrees of alcoholism and how people choose to get sober is not a one size fits all answer. I stand, applaud, and respect whatever it is that a person chooses to do in order to get and to remain sober and I could care less if it's going to AA, using SR and reading, doing rational recovery, or doing 20 cartwheels a day while pushing a pig in a wheelbarrow. All the more power to them. The fact that they found something that works is the point.
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:54 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Here's what I found. There are various degrees of alcoholism and how people choose to get sober is not a one size fits all answer. I stand, applaud, and respect whatever it is that a person chooses to do in order to get and to remain sober and I could care less if it's going to AA, using SR and reading, doing rational recover, or doing 20 cartwheels a day while pushing a pig in a wheelbarrow. All the more power to them. The fact that they found something that works is the point.
Beautifully put and I agree completely. At the end of the day, who cares who and what causes an alcoholic to stop? The point is that they've found something that helps them stop and the support they need to stay stopped. I don't think "logic" really has a lot of place in addictive thinking. If it did, I don't think we'd have much of a problem with addiction, frankly. The human mind and emotional system is nuanced, therefore recovery must be too.
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:55 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I agree to some point. I don't think looking for science is an unecessary complication. I think it is helpful to understand what is going on inside our bodies.

That said, science aside, there is only one way to stop and it sucks - put down the drink and stop the cycle.

What I've found in life so far is that any goal worth attaining causes some pain along the way. BUT, once you figure out why you want to meet a goal, the "how" is usually the easy part.
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Please don't take my initial post wrong. I sometimes forget that dry humor doesn't always translate well when you're writing. There's also probably a little of my own exasperation from having heard people say "I don't understand why you don't just quit". Grrrrrrrrrrrr, if it were that simple!

However, I am a lover of logic too with a degree in Computer Sciences and have been mesmerized since the first college course that I took. Down to the pathways of logic as seen in a flowchart. I understand your question. However, alcoholism defies logic. There have been some great leaps and bounds in research of exactly how the brain of an addict works and it's really interesting. Have you ever watched any of the documentaries that are available?
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:20 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I hear you. I think I got the dry humor. I totally agree with logic. Without talking process flows and data, lets try this one on for size.

One night recently, I poured myself a nice double-shot of 103 proof burbon. Straight. Because I am not quite right, possibly even a little tapped, I presented the shot to one of my Wifes Cats to smell. The Cat took a whiff and then reared up and fell off the railing of the deck and ran like hell into the woods!! I know that was a terrible trick to play on the household kitty.

That damn Cat probably finds the smell of burbon and Mobile Super Unleaded, equally revolting! Me on the other hand, I will gladly put 3 or 4 of those away. there is absolutely no logic in that.

My point: on a very logical level, we are poisoning ourselves and we just need to stop and it beehoves us to find whatever mechanism possible to acheive that goal - whether it's science, God or whatever else blows our hair back! So, The science is all good but ultimately I agree with Nike on this one "just do it"
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:26 AM   #12 (permalink)
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No I like you dry humor Lady! I do acknowledge that there is little logic in emotion and at least for me emotion and underlying issues had a lot to do with my drinking. i don't know how you deal with that but I agree that it has to be a very personal and case specific approach. Sometimes like hypochondriac said..I get frustrated with all these things they want you to do in recovery.
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Old 08-19-2013, 12:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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SLB, lol, that was quite the visual. I bet when the cat took off you were probably getting a good laugh out of it. Not being mean to the kitty but the concept of the abrupt reaction to the smell and yet we drink it!

caboblanco, I completely get what you're saying. Being a science minded person myself I had a rough time with everything that you speak of. I believe that's part of why I had such a hard time with all the prior attempts. I was not willing to give in to a higher power or admit that I was helpless. That was BIG me. My mother always called me "little miss independent". No one could tell me what to do.

On this most recent attempt I decided that it was time to give up, to give in and admit that I was powerless. For sure, nothing else was working. I found my higher power and I pray and I meditate daily. I preplan to combat my AV. I am a science minded person who has a hard time with the religion that I was raised in and had very little faith, if any at all. Yet It boggles, mystifies, and amazes me that when I followed this route that it has worked. So far, sober for 84 days and more importantly, and not one person who knows me would have ever believed it, THIRTEEN weekends with no alcohol and very little discomfort. I'm still a little gun shy but here's where the logic comes in. I tried everything that I could, science based, and had no success. Then, decided to really put my all into something that I had a hard time believing in. Then, to not only have it be successful but to restore my faith. I now can't deny that there has to be something greater than us and if we look to it we will find what we need because I have found it.

That's the best that I can give.
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Old 08-19-2013, 12:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If left to pure, unadulterated science, I never would have recovered. Science has virtually nothing to offer me in terms of getting sober, and plays no part in my remaining sober.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caboblanco View Post
Recovery circles make up these theories on alcoholism. The alcoholic personality, the Alcoholic Voice, the roles of an alcoholic family, things we

NEED to do if we are an alcoholic and so on. Why can't there be one recovery method that just sticks to hard science and thats it? Is that alcoholic

voice nothing other then our own thoughts and wants? Why does it have to be some separate entity that we didn't create? The enabler is always dragged

into the situation. There is no enabler because you have total control over your own drinking. Every alcoholic can find a so-called enabler by the

definition created for it. Your employer is an enabler. All we have to do is stop drinking. Does bringing in all these made up tools really help people get sober? Shouldn't we keep things factual and simple?
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Old 08-19-2013, 12:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I think there is plenty of logic in alcoholism. I want to feel good. Drinking makes me feel good. Therefore I drink. Seems logical to me.

As far as AA is concerned, it provides a framework for living your life. Once you put down the drink, it is gone. Now you have to put your life back together and live without the booze. Not an easy task, especially for many who have drank for so long we don't know how.

AVRT, to me, is just about quitting drinking. Just, bam, remove the alcohol. That's it.

I haven't really looked into other methods. For me, quitting drinking is just the start. I need more, which is why I go to AA, even though I don't like everything about it. But I've learned I don't have to like all of it. Just keep coming back, more will be revealed, that's what they say. If I want to stay sober, I have to believe that.
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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ok, all we have to do is stop drinking. how is that done when ones body is dependant on alcohol? how is one to do that when they cant stop?
if stopping drinking was as easy as just stop drinking, why so many deaths from it?


"Why can't there be one recovery method that just sticks to hard science and thats it?"
because until ALL of science agrees on it, it is just theory.


"...you have total control over your own drinking."
maybe you did or do, but I didn't.


made up tools??? that's funny.
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I agree many of us make it over complicated but I also think most of us need at least some kind of support to remind us of the dangers.

Some here think that groups like AA and talking about drinking twice a day help them stay sober. That would make me think too much about alcohol when I want to do the opposite and think about it less. That said, I wouldn't be sober today if it were not for my wife nagging me over and over and me finally going to psychologist who kept me accountable.

I don't think I could do this alone, I would have a beer in my hand right now. Yet, I don't overthink the drink and then I won't sink.
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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There is no enabler because you have total control over your own drinking.
Once upon a time I may have had "total control over my own drinking". But not after I became an alcoholic. That's what alcoholism is - loss of control.
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Sometimes like hypochondriac said..I get frustrated with all these things they want you to do in recovery.
Who are the "they" who are wanting you to do these things?

I got into recovery myself, for myself, so I don't really have that pressure. I want to get sober, and live sober, so I look for tools that can help and try them out, if they help, I keep them around. If they don't, I lay them down and move on.

I have a friend who is an alcoholic. When he was in the Navy they put him on antabuse and kept him from going into bars. He got sober and is still sober 20 yrs later. I would say that was science and it worked for him.

Drinking and drugging were symptoms of underlying issues for me. I was not physically dependent, so a purely physical "cure" didn't work for me. I was psychologically dependent, so I have to approach it from that direction as well.
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Old 08-19-2013, 05:16 PM   #20 (permalink)
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We're all different - it's that simple - and the various approaches and beliefs reflect that.

If there was only one answer and one approach we wouldn't need mods here

What someone else does need not be my way, or my business...
Do what works for you Cabo.

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