Tuff Love...
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Tuff Love...
The general consensus on dealing with an alcoholic seems to be a tough love approach. How can you call it a disease on the one hand then advise others to kick the alcoholic to the curb on the other. The logic usually offered is that you didn't cause it and you can't cure it so separating yourself from the problem is the general advice given. You wouldn't do that to a heart or cancer patient but it seems perfectly OK to treat the alcoholic this way. I always had a hard time following the logic of such advice. Any opinions.
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Not everyone considers it a disease, but in any case, alcoholism is entirely preventable. "Kicking someone to the curb" is not the first option either. That step is taken only after everything else has failed. The reasons are two-fold. One, it enables the one doing the evicting to regain their own well-being, serenity, and sometimes safety. Two, it forces the alcoholic to face the consequences of his actions. Enabling an addict by giving them a warm bed, hot meals, hygiene facilities, etc., keeps them for facing those consequences. Until it becomes more uncomfortable to continue as is than it is to seek help, the addict won't change anything. Some don't even then.
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I'm not sure I agree with the tough love approach. I think any problem is best dealt with by giving support to those in need. Support and understanding are a big reason I find myself on Sober Recovery. Alcoholism is an individual problem which the alcoholic needs to face and confront themselves but having people who care and understand can make that process a whole lot easier.
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Dealing with an alcoholic in the family is a complicated situation. It's handled in many ways, and it's handled in a different way at first, and then the approach to dealing with it is modified after each iteration. Also, the actions of the alcoholic are taken into account as well. Is the alcoholic functioning, where they are getting up to go to work, but other than that, isolating themselves? Or are they skipping work and acting in a way that affects the family they are living with?
The 'kicking them to the curb' approach occurs after other actions are taken. And it is often a defensive action, because the alcoholic's actions are harming the others in the family.
The 'kicking them to the curb' approach occurs after other actions are taken. And it is often a defensive action, because the alcoholic's actions are harming the others in the family.
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I don't know that comparing the symptoms of cancer and heart disease to alcoholism is 100% accurate.
Is there an involuntary physiological state that exists in all three ? Yes. But a heart disease or cancer patient needs more to recover than a "spiritual awakening", "change plan" or meeting "the beast" head on intellectually and with will power, etc..
But heart disease patients that continue to lead a lifestyle that makes their situation worse and cancer patients who lose the will to live - they might need a swift kick in the arse in the hopes of motivating them to do what's necessary to survive. I've heard of such stories. I have some experience in that with my grandfather as well as he was dying and his kidneys had failed, he had to limit his fluids and was on a regimented diet. "Tough love", and it's "tough" on the givers of it too - trust me on that.
Sympathy can kill people at times, depending on the circumstance.
Is there an involuntary physiological state that exists in all three ? Yes. But a heart disease or cancer patient needs more to recover than a "spiritual awakening", "change plan" or meeting "the beast" head on intellectually and with will power, etc..
But heart disease patients that continue to lead a lifestyle that makes their situation worse and cancer patients who lose the will to live - they might need a swift kick in the arse in the hopes of motivating them to do what's necessary to survive. I've heard of such stories. I have some experience in that with my grandfather as well as he was dying and his kidneys had failed, he had to limit his fluids and was on a regimented diet. "Tough love", and it's "tough" on the givers of it too - trust me on that.
Sympathy can kill people at times, depending on the circumstance.
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Tuff love can only be beneficial to the recepient if offered with a solution...all that compassion and sympathy gave me was a good enough reason to get another drink!
I've got an ex who had a stroke a year ago, if it hadn't have been for our daughter giving tuff love to make her do the physio etc she wouldn't be anywhere near where she is now, recovery wise...of course it's not easy to not cry and sympathise when someone you care about is in pain...so like the alcoholic there is a solution to the problem, if you don;t want to do it then go back to what you've always done until you are ready to do something different...that's even logical surely?!
As for comparing to cancer and heart disease, in those cases there may not be a solution, it may be a matter of just making them comfortable...not the case for an alcoholic...although my great grandmother (alcoholic) did put herself to bed 15 years before she died and my grandmother bought her whisky measures 3 times a day to her bed, now that's enabling lol She even had one of her legs amputated because she didn't use it, nothing wrong with it before going to bed...that story always makes me laugh:-)
I've got an ex who had a stroke a year ago, if it hadn't have been for our daughter giving tuff love to make her do the physio etc she wouldn't be anywhere near where she is now, recovery wise...of course it's not easy to not cry and sympathise when someone you care about is in pain...so like the alcoholic there is a solution to the problem, if you don;t want to do it then go back to what you've always done until you are ready to do something different...that's even logical surely?!
As for comparing to cancer and heart disease, in those cases there may not be a solution, it may be a matter of just making them comfortable...not the case for an alcoholic...although my great grandmother (alcoholic) did put herself to bed 15 years before she died and my grandmother bought her whisky measures 3 times a day to her bed, now that's enabling lol She even had one of her legs amputated because she didn't use it, nothing wrong with it before going to bed...that story always makes me laugh:-)
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I don't view detachment from the alcoholic (including separation and, where necessary, "no contact") as "kicking them to the curb." No one is helped where the loved ones continually bail the alcoholic out of trouble, pay their bills for them, cover for them at work, pay for lawyers to get them out of legal difficulties caused by their failure to meet their responsibilities. And living around the emotional volatility (and emotional unavailabilty) of active drinking is detrimental to the health and well-being of loved ones.
I never stopped caring for the alcoholic in my life that I left, but it was necessary for my own sanity to step away and allow him to find his own path. Sadly, he did not choose recovery, but that was HIS choice. My staying would not, I'm convinced, have made any difference except to make me physically and emotionally ill. Two sick people are not good for each other, themselves, or anyone else.
I never stopped caring for the alcoholic in my life that I left, but it was necessary for my own sanity to step away and allow him to find his own path. Sadly, he did not choose recovery, but that was HIS choice. My staying would not, I'm convinced, have made any difference except to make me physically and emotionally ill. Two sick people are not good for each other, themselves, or anyone else.
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What we learn is to put the focus on US, see and deal with our own problems. The problem really isn't the someone else, it's us. Perhaps we're choosing people who aren't good for us, who cause problems in our lives.
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My experience is that tough love is needed at times, in certain situations and with certain people... Either to stop them from manipulating, justifying, rationalizing, denying... Or to stop them from hurting themselves or others... Sometimes that's what it takes.
I don't mean that people should be mean for the sake of it...
Using the disease comparison... Chemotherapy is pretty tough...
I don't mean that people should be mean for the sake of it...
Using the disease comparison... Chemotherapy is pretty tough...
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I have a stepmom who, if she was able, would be taking pain pills nonstop (no insurance and dr. cut her off the meds). She does have legit pain issues. She also has physical ailments (diseases) but refuses to do anything I, her doctors, or anyone else recommends to help herself.
I don't consider it tough love, but when I consistently hear "I shouldn't have eaten that", knowing full well that it will flare up her intestinal issues, I've gotten to the point where I simply say "you choose not to do anything to help yourself, and you know the consequences".
I was an RN before my addiction ended that career. I've given her TONS of information on things that will help, to no avail. I no longer do that. I love her dearly, I hate to see her in pain, but I will no longer agree with her that life sucks, when she chooses to make bad choices.
I take the same approach with A's. I tell them what worked for me, I offer them moral support, but when it starts to drag ME down, I detach. Considering that I SHOULD be dead with all the things I did, yet I got sick and tired of bad consequences and sought recovery, I give everyone else the dignity of making the same choice.
If it weren't for people detaching from me, allowing me to deal with the life I chose (a streetwalking crack addict, homeless, in and out of jail), I seriously doubt I would have 4+ years in recovery.
Some people call it tough love. I think of it more as loving a person enough to make their own choices. My XABF#3 died from his addiction...the one we shared. It saddened me, but it didn't matter whether I was with him, or not, he was hell-bent on smoking crack. I had to put MY life first.
The other thing I learned is that worrying, trying to control, constantly thinking about the A is extremely stressful on our body. There are many people who now have chronic, sometimes severe, health issues because of all the stress they put themselves through.
I never stopped loving my XABF, I still love the family members I have who are harming themselves in one way or another. However, I simply refuse to be a part of it (and I LIVE with them). I still slip, every now and then, but it's rare.
Compassion, love? I've got that. Getting all worked up over what they're doing? Nope. I was blessed to get a second chance in life, and I intend on making the best of it. I think "tough love" means different things to different people, and I'm sure that many would consider it tough love that my family allowed me to do what I did, but in all honesty? It was my choice. They tried to offer rehab, they let me know they loved me, but other than that, we were essentially in 2 different worlds.
This topic has been brought up several times...the addict vs. the cancer/heart disease patient. I've taken away cigarettes from someone on oxygen who was suffering from lung cancer. I've detached when someone who has serious heart issues doesn't take the medicines they desperately need just because they don't want to. I've seen someone drinking a half-gallon of liquor when they were so jaundiced (yellow) and their abdomen was HUGE.
To me, it boils down to knowing I can't make someone get well, in any situation. I pray for them, I tell them I hope they get to the point where they want to live, enough to stop doing the harmful things, and then I let go.
As far as "kicking them to the curb", I can't say I regret the years I lived on the streets, because that is a huge part of what got me into recovery.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
I don't consider it tough love, but when I consistently hear "I shouldn't have eaten that", knowing full well that it will flare up her intestinal issues, I've gotten to the point where I simply say "you choose not to do anything to help yourself, and you know the consequences".
I was an RN before my addiction ended that career. I've given her TONS of information on things that will help, to no avail. I no longer do that. I love her dearly, I hate to see her in pain, but I will no longer agree with her that life sucks, when she chooses to make bad choices.
I take the same approach with A's. I tell them what worked for me, I offer them moral support, but when it starts to drag ME down, I detach. Considering that I SHOULD be dead with all the things I did, yet I got sick and tired of bad consequences and sought recovery, I give everyone else the dignity of making the same choice.
If it weren't for people detaching from me, allowing me to deal with the life I chose (a streetwalking crack addict, homeless, in and out of jail), I seriously doubt I would have 4+ years in recovery.
Some people call it tough love. I think of it more as loving a person enough to make their own choices. My XABF#3 died from his addiction...the one we shared. It saddened me, but it didn't matter whether I was with him, or not, he was hell-bent on smoking crack. I had to put MY life first.
The other thing I learned is that worrying, trying to control, constantly thinking about the A is extremely stressful on our body. There are many people who now have chronic, sometimes severe, health issues because of all the stress they put themselves through.
I never stopped loving my XABF, I still love the family members I have who are harming themselves in one way or another. However, I simply refuse to be a part of it (and I LIVE with them). I still slip, every now and then, but it's rare.
Compassion, love? I've got that. Getting all worked up over what they're doing? Nope. I was blessed to get a second chance in life, and I intend on making the best of it. I think "tough love" means different things to different people, and I'm sure that many would consider it tough love that my family allowed me to do what I did, but in all honesty? It was my choice. They tried to offer rehab, they let me know they loved me, but other than that, we were essentially in 2 different worlds.
This topic has been brought up several times...the addict vs. the cancer/heart disease patient. I've taken away cigarettes from someone on oxygen who was suffering from lung cancer. I've detached when someone who has serious heart issues doesn't take the medicines they desperately need just because they don't want to. I've seen someone drinking a half-gallon of liquor when they were so jaundiced (yellow) and their abdomen was HUGE.
To me, it boils down to knowing I can't make someone get well, in any situation. I pray for them, I tell them I hope they get to the point where they want to live, enough to stop doing the harmful things, and then I let go.
As far as "kicking them to the curb", I can't say I regret the years I lived on the streets, because that is a huge part of what got me into recovery.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
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I guess I've always thought that a lot of alcoholics/addicts already have their plates overflowing with grief and misery. Why would you think that it's a good idea to supersize their meal with even more negatives? An active alcoholic is not really in the best frame of mind to make major decisions. Laying a boatload of ultimatums on the table and expecting to get a rational response from a troubled mind may not always work out so well. You'll catch more bees with honey than vinegar, tough love can be vinegar in many cases...
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I've read the books "I'll Quit Tomorrow: A Practical Guide to Alcoholism Treatment" and "Intervention: How to Help Someone Who Doesn't Want Help", both by Vernon E. Johnson, which detail the traditional "tough love" approach.
I'm not a big fan of the traditional approach, simply because the only choice usually offered is the rehab van idling outside. In fact, if I recall correctly, the book specifically states NOT to give "the alcoholic" *any* choice in determining their "treatment" - on the assumption that they will try to weasel out of it.
I think people certainly do need to be offered a possible solution; kicking someone to the curb without an alternative serves little purpose.
However, I prefer an approach in which the "how" is left up to the individual. They may be more amenable to one approach over another, and some options should be provided. You can't force people into something that does not suit them.
I think that some semblance of free will and informed consent must come into the picture for it to work. Usually, people are not told what they are agreeing to, and I would wager that those who voluntarily choose to get help will do better in the long run.
As an aside, for those interested, Vernon Johnson's books do somewhat answer the question often asked, but rarely answered - of just what "treatment" entails.
I'm not a big fan of the traditional approach, simply because the only choice usually offered is the rehab van idling outside. In fact, if I recall correctly, the book specifically states NOT to give "the alcoholic" *any* choice in determining their "treatment" - on the assumption that they will try to weasel out of it.
I think people certainly do need to be offered a possible solution; kicking someone to the curb without an alternative serves little purpose.
However, I prefer an approach in which the "how" is left up to the individual. They may be more amenable to one approach over another, and some options should be provided. You can't force people into something that does not suit them.
I think that some semblance of free will and informed consent must come into the picture for it to work. Usually, people are not told what they are agreeing to, and I would wager that those who voluntarily choose to get help will do better in the long run.
As an aside, for those interested, Vernon Johnson's books do somewhat answer the question often asked, but rarely answered - of just what "treatment" entails.
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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None of us has much power when dealing with a loved one who is addicted; whether we use tough love, detachment, NC, undying patience and kindness. None of those approaches actually "works".
It's not up to those who love the addict to accept help; it's up to the addict. The approach is negligible until they are ready for change. They can claim something hurt their recovery or things were made worse by our approaches but really, I believe anyway, we just don't have that much power to change our addicts at the end of the day.
It's not up to those who love the addict to accept help; it's up to the addict. The approach is negligible until they are ready for change. They can claim something hurt their recovery or things were made worse by our approaches but really, I believe anyway, we just don't have that much power to change our addicts at the end of the day.
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BacktoSquareOne,
If you haven't done so already, I would suggest some reading over in the Family and Friends forums. You will see first hand what it is like living with active alcoholism and addiction. I can't blame the families one bit for the choices they make and/or for the boundaries they set. If the tables were turned, I would do exactly the same thing.
Susan
If you haven't done so already, I would suggest some reading over in the Family and Friends forums. You will see first hand what it is like living with active alcoholism and addiction. I can't blame the families one bit for the choices they make and/or for the boundaries they set. If the tables were turned, I would do exactly the same thing.
Susan
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Originally Posted by susanlauren 
BacktoSquareOne,
If you haven't done so already, I would suggest some reading over in the Family and Friends forums. You will see first hand what it is like living with active alcoholism and addiction. I can't blame the families one bit for the choices they make and/or for the boundaries they set. If the tables were turned, I would do exactly the same thing.
Susan
If you haven't done so already, I would suggest some reading over in the Family and Friends forums. You will see first hand what it is like living with active alcoholism and addiction. I can't blame the families one bit for the choices they make and/or for the boundaries they set. If the tables were turned, I would do exactly the same thing.
Susan
Susan, you can't make the assumption (and I'm not saying you are) that every alcoholic/addict is an abusive jackass. There are those that fit into that catagory but there are also those suffering from depression/anxiety or other mental health issues. Those in the second group need to be built up not torn down more than they already are. Some are just very mixed up or lost young adults. You can't paint everyone with one brush, it doesn't work that way.
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BacktoSquareOne,
No, not every alcoholic/addict is an abusive jackass. So let's say your daughter is twenty-something and a heroin addict. She has some mental health issues -- anxiety and depression. She lives at home. She dropped out of college. She doesn't work.
She begins stealing and pawning your heirloom silver in order to get money to buy drugs. Or uses your ATM card without your authorization. Or takes the family car out bar hopping and drives home intoxicated. Or forges some checks from your account. Or brings her addict friends home for a shoot up session. Or ... fill in the blank.
Please don't tell me that there are no boundaries or consequences for this mixed up, lost, depressed, anxious, young adult.
You say no drugs or drug use in your house. She pays no heed to that request, repeatedly. You confront her on what she has stolen. She denies it. More items turn up missing. More denial. More checks are forged. More denial. You say no use of the family car. She takes it anyway and drives intoxicated/high many times.
At what point does it no longer matter that she is mixed up and lost? At what point does it no longer matter that she suffers from a mental illness? At what point is her addiction not only going to destroy herself but her entire family as well? At what point do you protect the family and sibblings who are still in high school from the situation?
How many family heirlooms need to be stolen and pawned? How many family cars does she need to total? How much money can be stolen from the family finances? How many legal bills are you going to pay? How much money are you going to put up for bail? How many times are you going to get her out of jail? How much? How long?
By the way, did I mention she is not abusive and she is not a jackass. Maybe lying, cheating, stealing, manipulating ....
What I am wondering, BacktoSquareOne, is whether you have a specific situation in mind when you asked your question.
Susan
No, not every alcoholic/addict is an abusive jackass. So let's say your daughter is twenty-something and a heroin addict. She has some mental health issues -- anxiety and depression. She lives at home. She dropped out of college. She doesn't work.
She begins stealing and pawning your heirloom silver in order to get money to buy drugs. Or uses your ATM card without your authorization. Or takes the family car out bar hopping and drives home intoxicated. Or forges some checks from your account. Or brings her addict friends home for a shoot up session. Or ... fill in the blank.
Please don't tell me that there are no boundaries or consequences for this mixed up, lost, depressed, anxious, young adult.
You say no drugs or drug use in your house. She pays no heed to that request, repeatedly. You confront her on what she has stolen. She denies it. More items turn up missing. More denial. More checks are forged. More denial. You say no use of the family car. She takes it anyway and drives intoxicated/high many times.
At what point does it no longer matter that she is mixed up and lost? At what point does it no longer matter that she suffers from a mental illness? At what point is her addiction not only going to destroy herself but her entire family as well? At what point do you protect the family and sibblings who are still in high school from the situation?
How many family heirlooms need to be stolen and pawned? How many family cars does she need to total? How much money can be stolen from the family finances? How many legal bills are you going to pay? How much money are you going to put up for bail? How many times are you going to get her out of jail? How much? How long?
By the way, did I mention she is not abusive and she is not a jackass. Maybe lying, cheating, stealing, manipulating ....
What I am wondering, BacktoSquareOne, is whether you have a specific situation in mind when you asked your question.
Susan
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Originally Posted by susanlauren
...By the way, did I mention she is not abusive and she is not a jackass. Maybe lying, cheating, stealing, manipulating ....
What I am wondering, BacktoSquareOne, is whether you have a specific situation in mind when you asked your question.
What I am wondering, BacktoSquareOne, is whether you have a specific situation in mind when you asked your question.
The hypothetical daughter is abusing the right to live at home by:
- Stealing from her parents, both directly, and by forging checks.
- Putting the house at risk for repossession from the authorities by using illegal drugs in the house and by having others over to do the same.
- Taking the family car, and further breaking the law by driving drunk.
All of the above are illegal activities which put the family car, the family home, other family members, and society at large in danger.
Not all addicted people fit this category.
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Believe it or not Susan but many people abuse alcohol for decades without doing any of the things you mentioned above. Your painting a worst case scenario and trying to fit all alcoholics on your canvas. An alcoholic can be your Doctor, Nurse, Teacher, Cop, Politician, Lawyer... they come in all makes and models. Stereotypes only exist in fantasyland. Books that use tough love as a model for treating all alcoholics should be taken with a grain of salt.
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AVRT,
My definition of "abusive" for purposes of the example was actions that would qualify as domestive violence (i.e., punching, hitting, slapping, etc.). I was looking at it from a standpoint of physical safety. I was not considering illegal or criminal acts as "abusive", not that the consequences are any less harmful, damaging, dangerous, or wrong.
My point was: how long should parents/spouse/family tolerate the actions of someone who is alcoholic/addicted and mentally ill before saying that enough is enough? You are absolutely right, the illegal activity in the hypothetical example put the entire family, as well as society at large, at risk. I think a family has a right to self-preservation.
The original poster was asking about "tough love" and whether such a concept was incongruent with a disease concept of alcoholism. Mixed up, lost, alcoholic/addicted and mentally ill only play so far in terms of sympathy and understanding when weighed against the chaos and havoc that can be caused by active alcoholism/addiction.
I realize that not everyone considers alcoholism and addiction as diseases. Call it what you will. If the family is at risk of being destroyed as a result of alcoholism or addiction, there should be boundaries and consequences. Call it tough love. Call it self-preservation. Call it detachment. The family can love and care from a safe distance.
Susan
My definition of "abusive" for purposes of the example was actions that would qualify as domestive violence (i.e., punching, hitting, slapping, etc.). I was looking at it from a standpoint of physical safety. I was not considering illegal or criminal acts as "abusive", not that the consequences are any less harmful, damaging, dangerous, or wrong.
My point was: how long should parents/spouse/family tolerate the actions of someone who is alcoholic/addicted and mentally ill before saying that enough is enough? You are absolutely right, the illegal activity in the hypothetical example put the entire family, as well as society at large, at risk. I think a family has a right to self-preservation.
The original poster was asking about "tough love" and whether such a concept was incongruent with a disease concept of alcoholism. Mixed up, lost, alcoholic/addicted and mentally ill only play so far in terms of sympathy and understanding when weighed against the chaos and havoc that can be caused by active alcoholism/addiction.
I realize that not everyone considers alcoholism and addiction as diseases. Call it what you will. If the family is at risk of being destroyed as a result of alcoholism or addiction, there should be boundaries and consequences. Call it tough love. Call it self-preservation. Call it detachment. The family can love and care from a safe distance.
Susan
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