Mark75

I don't spend much time worrying about this. My ego is not wrapped up in power/powerlessness... I don't find it a threat to my existence or self image if I say I am powerless... By ceding this point, by not worrying about whether I have power or not I spare myself a lot of internal struggle and conflict... I have not been reliable when it comes to my alcohol consumption so I will choose not to choose... I relinquish that choice...

You know, I never interpreted that whole rigorous honesty thing as insinuating that my thought processes are flawed, or something to be ashamed of, or anything... just that denial, rationalization and intellectualization are very strong and active in active alcoholism and that honesty, rigorous honesty, is necessary to break through...

I thought the whole idea of AA and the 12 steps was a viable solution... where are you going with that, John?

Stimmed

The concept of powerlessness is a weakness of will at any given time.

Some folk get lost in things, and 'need' direction. If AA works, then ok, whats the gruff?!

I dont get on this site how some folk trounce AA, because its not their choice of rec'. Why tho, do they continue to slam it??

Would that not have a neg' effect on some folk seeking something to free them from a drink addiction which in-turn could save their lives, perhaps others??!!

I know its a dicussion, but some folk are like sledge-hammering their veiws, not just here but throughout this board.

Sec' connections ring any bells, or is diddly on TV?

JohnBarleycorn

Relinquishing the choice is a very sound way of looking at it, if you have another way that will keep you from drinking.

Those who relinquish that choice without having another way to not go back to the bottle, will have problems. Lots of them.

This is also a sound way of looking at it.

It may be a viable solution for those who "get it" and for whom it works, but quite often, when someone relapses, often for the 20th time, after their "shaming ritual" (getting that shiny new 24 hour chip in front of everyone), they are then told "you left something out of Step 4" or "you haven't fully accepted Step 1" - work the steps again, from the beginning - "it works if you work it."

What do you think happens to those people? They either stop coming, or they come back, eventually, beaten yet again by alcohol, more hopeless than ever, and they are told the same thing (again).

Mark75

Thanx for reply John.

I don't have the answer. Those poor souls who never get it.... What do we do?

Zencat

I found the powerless concept to be promoted by a recovery program that has it as a central core belief in order to work that particular program. I don't agree with the powerless concept that that program promotes. I know that in my active addiction I was out of control and my addiction was unmanageable. Now some equate that to powerless, I don't. I see it for what is was, living in the mess that addiction is. However once I cleaned up, I eventually regained manageability of my life, not lost in the perpetual state of powerless ;(.

For some powerlessness is a key admissions that opens the door to God/HP (of their understanding) and allows them to recover from a seemly hopeless state of alcoholism. More power to them , you know, whatever floats your boat and all that stuff. Me, I wont have it! Sure in addiction my life was a giant mess, but I can recover from that wreck and regain control of direction of where my life is going. Yep, I cant control the world around me, I can control my response to it .

JohnBarleycorn

I tell them to try something else, and to ignore anyone and everyone who tells them that they are failing because they haven't "honestly and passionately worked the steps" (or something similar).

After all, as they say, “insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

I've worked with several of the "constitutionally incapables" and sometimes they make a quick turnaround. Other times, if they've gone through the relapse/retread cycle for years, it takes quite a bit of work to get through to them.

susanlauren

"the disease concept" .... "primary, chronic, progressive, relapsing, fatal" JBC

I am not a medical doctor, and I imagine that most of the folks on this website aren't either. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the classification, it was the American Medical Association that determined alcoholism was a "disease" in 1956. Do you, as a non-physician, know better than the AMA and the medical community?

As I've said to you before, John, it never occurred to me to blame AA that I am an alcoholic or to blame AA that my disease of alcoholism has progressed in severity over the years. But if folks want to blame AA for their alcoholism or for the progression of their alcoholism, they are certainly free to do so. Saying it's so doesn't make it so.



After telling the incredulous newcomers that they must concede powerlessness, that they have to hit bottom, that they may not be ready yet, and that they should try some more controlled drinking, to figure out if they are a real alcoholic, they then tell them "take what you like and leave the rest." JBC.....

"And leave the newcomers do, in droves, taking with them the disease concept which "marks" them to continue drinking against their better judgement, and of course, they leave the rest - The Steps - behind." JBC


John, the characterization you are making of the passages found in the chapter "More About Alcoholism" (AA Big Book 1st Ed) are neither complete nor accurate nor fair. I would encourage folks to read for themselves pages 30 through 43 to find out what the book itself says. I would also remind you: the program of AA is set out in the Big Book of AA, anything that is said in the rooms that conflicts with the BB is not AA program.

The book provides multiple examples of attempts to control one's drinking, the idea being that a newcomer would be able to identify with these. It is only after these examples that a "controlled drinking experiement" is suggested for those who are still uncertain as to whether they are alcoholic. What is also suggested is an "abstinence" experiment of one year as another way for folks to figure out if they can quit on their own willpower or not -- which you conveniently fail to mention.


The "take what you like and leave the rest" saying is really a "no-win proposition". I think you know very well that the original writing of the Big Book text set the program and the steps up as "directions" not as "suggestions". That was changed to the current "suggested as a program of recovery" so as not to offend people.

So damned if you do ("directions"), newcomer: hell, no I'm not going to follow any directions. Damned if you don't ("suggestions"), newcomer: well you told us we could do whatever parts of the program we wanted to do. Can't win either way.


If an individual who is showing signs of alcoholism can stop drinking and stay stopped drinking, then there really is no need for any program whatsoever. Plenty of people come into AA questioning whether they are alcoholic.

If someone thinks they are not alcoholic or if someone thinks they can quit on their own willpower or if someone thinks they can quit using a program other than AA, the AA program would encourage that individual to follow his or her own conscience.

Susan

Mark75

I am not gonna defend the notion that AA will work for everybody... I do believe that it has a good chance of working for most of those who want it to and are able to figure out how to work it...

It works if you work it...

You have to know how. We hope that for those who need it a sponsor is available, a good one, one who has had an experience with the solution and can share how they did it...

miamifella

I have to say that I also have frequently heard that people need to go out and drink/drug more before they are ready for recovery. It is said very often in the rooms and while it may not be sanctioned by the BB, that really does not matter when you have it said to you. You do not say to yourself, "Let me see if I can find justification for what they say in the BB." Rather you say, "I'm hopeless. Might as well relapse!"

I think this is one of the main things that made me leave behind 12-step programs. In theory, susanlauren is right--it should not be said. In practice, I heard it all the time said to anyone who admitted to have trouble working the steps or keeping abstinent. I was plagued by drug and alcohol cravings, but knew that if I ever admitted it at a meeting someone was sure to come up to me afterward to say that I just needed to use/drink more until I was ready for recovery.

slugger9787

The spiritual principles taught in AA innoculate and insulate those practicing them from the sledge hammer, Stemmed. I am referring to PATIENCE, TOLERANCE, COMPASSION, UNDERSTANDING, BROTHERLY LOVE, AND SO ON...

JohnBarleycorn

The AMA represents about a third of American physicians, not "the medical community" (feel free to check).

That said, it does not matter if alcoholism is a disease. Telling (hammering) into people they have to accept that they have a relapsing disease, or they will die, without giving them a solution, does not help them.

People who accept this as fact may think "So, I have an incurable, relapsing disease? That must be why I want a drink. The desire hasn't been lifted, and I worked the steps. Maybe I'm one of those constitutionally incapables. Maybe I'm just not ready yet, like they said. Oh well, I can't figure out those steps, and there are worse diseases than this - TIME TO RELAPSE !!!!"

(To be fair, I did a google search of SR for "not ready yet" and got 587 results, so this isn't just limited to "the rooms.")

I would encourage folks to read the literature for themselves as well. I have on multiple occasions here on SR, as I did in this post, for example:
That part - about quitting for a year - is indeed in there. But it is also rarely mentioned in the rooms.

In any case, many people who can stop for a year still cannot control their drinking once they start. Why not tell them to stop experimenting altogether and to never drink again?

I do know very well that it was changed - and quite a few other things too. I've read the original manuscript.

It doesn't really matter much, though. To a desperate person, especially one that has been convinced that they have an incurable, progressive disease over which they are powerless, there is little difference between a "suggestion" and "directions."

It's the same as telling someone who has jumped off an airplane and believes they will die on impact "we suggest that you open your parachute."

Damned if you do ("directions") relapsing veteran: Many would do just that - STOP - if they where not told they have a relapsing disease over which they are powerless, without being given a real solution. Those people would absolutely be better off with no program whatsoever.

You are correct, the book does say that, but just how many people in "the rooms" ever say to someone: "LEAVE. LEAVE NOW. THIS ISN'T WORKING FOR YOU. Try something else or you WILL die before you figure out the mystery of the steps" ????

Not many. What do they say?

If they are nice, they will say "Keep coming back! It works if you work it!"

If they are not so nice, they will say "This is the last house on the block" (meaning, don't even bother looking somewhere else - you are out of luck).

JohnBarleycorn

Thank you for speaking up. I am sure there are many others on here who have witnessed this but are afraid to say so.

Ranger

Say again the point to denigrating a program that is generally appealing and widely available to the typical, desperate alcoholic?

Can we not promise an alternative solution to the few who can/will never recover via AA without poisoning the waters for the so many who can/will?

Do you doubt all this business is feeding trolls who are terrified of AA and hungry for reason to NOT consider reaching out to AA for help?

JohnBarleycorn

I am calling into question certain practices and "advice" which I consider very dangerous for a problem drinker, especially for those who continue to have problems year after year, with multiple relapse/retread cycles.

We can, but in practice, few do.

That is certainly a fair concern. To that I can only say that there are indeed a range of groups out there - not all are the same. Many people are certainly able to stay sober for years and years in the program.

If, as you said, though, it is "generally appealing," why would people be terrified of it and be looking for a reason not to consider it?

Ranger

I dig and respect what you're saying.

I simply believe that in this forum there is no net profit in skewering AA.

If you don't agree with some tenaments of AA, that's cool. There's little use for critical novellas other than to satiate a desire to debate and/or the need to bolster one's feeling of rightness.

There will always be an audience of like minded folks who are drawn to any given way of thinking.

BackToSquareOne

My solution was comming to the realization that the brief periods of drunken bliss were just not worth the alcohol withdrawal episodes which were sure to follow. They do get worse as the years go by and when anxiety and depression became a lingering part of the withdrawal periods I just threw in the towel and surrendered.

I was buying vodka by the case and adding valium to the mix. The depression was getting worse and the only thing that seemed to help was more alcohol and benzos. I was on a merry-go-round that I couldn't get off of. Luckily I ended up in the hospital, cleaned up my act and never went back to it. It will be 3 years this August.

What keeps me from going back to it is knowing what the end result will be. Other than this forum I really had no formal treatment program. My opinion is that there are many roads that lead to the same destination and I would support any program that frees one from the living hell that alcoholism is.

StPeteGrad

I drank to the point my body utilized the alcohol as primary source for nutrients. I had little to no appetite. I found myself going several days without eating.
I am powerless to alcohol if my goal is to be a moderate drinker.

Prior to finding this recent low in my addiction, I had 13 days sober in an "anti-AA" outpatient.

For me, recovery is much more than just sobriety. If I convince myself that I have power over alcohol then there would be no reason not to pick up that first drink.

There's a lot of splitting hairs on this post. I only know what's worked for me, AA, and nothing else using my rational mind and willpower ever worked to help me control my insanity.

April999

I think there is more than 1 solution to this problem. Personally, I choose to see things from both a medical and spiritual standpoint. I think that learning to be resourceful and open-minded is key.

Mark75

To be honest John, I disagree with you and that rather sweeping statement. I think people do care, especially those who try to live a spiritual existence. It is exactly the lost cause for whom AA offers a solution. That is the whole point, the foundation of AA's mission.

Perhaps not every AA who wants to help, can, with every lost soul. But that is often not due to indifference.

JohnBarleycorn

A fair point.

Some people may not know how to help, and are simply repeating what was taught to them without giving it much thought, not necessarily out of indifference.

Perhaps a good question would be - for those people, how do we recognize that we ourselves may not be qualified to help, and that we need to let someone else, with a different experience/perspective/method, give it a shot?