AA-Alcoholism-The science

[Iriss]

All science evolves.

Alcoholism, according to AA is not up for debate or progression. AA still continues to practice on the findings of the original founders. Given the low success rate of AA, does anyone not question the theory. Maybe there are key points in AA that are so relevant, that could be mixed with others that could make this programme more successful.

[smacked]

I think it's important for each one of us to find what works best, according to our own lives, beliefs, and issues. That's what I've learned. It's up to ME to find the way I can recover best, and do all the work it takes to be as healthy as I can. I spent a lot of time poo-pooing different theories, methods, programs, until I realized I was focusing a lot more outside of me than I was within. I never would have had any growth that way, that's for sure.

[tyler]

Gotta agree with Smacked on this one. If there are aspects of AA you find helpful, use them. If there are other, more "science based" theories that help you, use them too. My "recovery program" takes from a whole variety of sources. It works for me. AA works for many people, others, not so much, but it is up to you to find what works for you. "Take what you want and leave the rest behind". Take care.

I predict this thread will be locked in under 24 hrs!!!! Sorry, had to say it!!!

[CarolD]

Science or AA ...as far as I know.....to overcome alcoholism
abstinance is required.

I certainly hope anyone wishing to quit can find a way to abstain.
I'm quite astounded that I have done so
with joy and peace of mind.....

[walkertall]

An alcoholic can focus too much on a single recovery program. I tried AA, didn't work for me but I'm sure it's a godsend for some. The whole key to sobriety is the absence of alcohol. What smacked posted is right on to any type of recovery.

[Mark75]

It's funny, I don't see AA as being scientific at all. Yes there was the doctors opinion. Lot's of science has occurred since, but, IMO, it has only expanded somewhat our understanding of the differences between an alcoholic and a non alcoholic... nothing really disproves what was written 70 years ago... understanding that "allergy" was used as a way to describe it because there was no better term... and the definition of allergy has changed somewhat since then....

AA is just about a way of living. Having a spiritual awakening. Dispelling self will. Bringing the power of God (or whatever you choose to call your higher power) into one's life... nothing scientific about it...

Iriss's question is a good one, we should always question, ....everything.

Mark

[Pinkcuda]

AA does not succeed or fail. People do!
FWIW this is an excerpt from Dr. Bob's farewell speech.

Dr. Bob?s Farewell Address ?My good friends in AA and of AA, I feel I would be very remiss if I didn?t take this opportunity to welcome you here to Cleveland, and not only to this meeting but to those that have already transpired. I hope very m

Let’s not louse it up with Freudian complexes and things that are interesting to the scientific mind, but have very little to do with our actual AA work. Our Twelve Steps, when simmered down to the last, resolve themselves into the words “love” and “service”. We all understand what love is, and we understand what service is. So let’s bear those two things in mind.

[TheSunAlsoRises]

I have to agree with cubie... the only weird thing about AAs view of alcoholism is the use of the word allergy... which isn't quit accurate. Iriss is correct it is important to stay updated on new research. But overall I find AA is not about the definition of alcoholism as it is about facing the problem. Iriss just out of curiosity do you think we are missing something that is vital to a successful recovery? (This is not a sarcastic remark) I would love to hear what findings exactly could be woven into AA to increase the success rate?

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by Iriss

Given the low success rate of AA, does anyone not question the theory.

The way I see it, evolution is the CAUSE of today's "low success rate". When the message was purely spiritual, AA had a 50-75% success rate. It helped those who were hopeless.

Now that the message has been mixed with "psychological tricks & tips" it only helps those who don't need much help in the first place.

Spiritual Principles are the strongest recovery the universe has to offer. Spiritual Principles haven't changed at all in the last billion years.

[ElegantlyWasted]

Not Flaming or Asking for a Masters Thesis; but where did you get your numbers? Did you read a recent controlled study that compared AA's efficacy with other treatment methods. Were concrete operational definitions applied? Most who are considered Alcoholics need at least a couple tries to have real success. Do you feel that scientific findings since the inception of AA could add to its success rate?

"Alcoholism, according to AA is not up for debate or progression."
Not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring Alcoholism as a Disease according to the Dr.'s opinion? Or AA as a cultish social institution that is entirely closed.
I think the 12 steps is flexible enough to and does incorporate societal/ scientific changes and can be a constructive component of a larger recovery program as well (meds, other CBT, etc). Also, like anything else you get out of it what you put into it. Relapse rates are high for all treatment methods. From the hard stats that I've seen one program by itself is not appreciably better than any other.

[Wolfchild]

A.A. did not create, neither does it own, the spiritual principles of the Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions. God has chosen to work thru A.A. and many other programs of recovery, to save thousands upon millions of lives. To poke holes in this fellowship or that fellowship, is like trying to say that God had an off day when He established it.

You are certainly entitled to believe what you want about anything, that is your privilage. Just like it is everyone's right to find what works for them to help them stay sober & to recover. Good luck in your journey & i wish the best.

[Coolmummy]

So, why, if people question AA in any way, whilst in meetings, whilst following the programme etc, are they shunned? If you have a query about something, why is it frowned upon, hushed up? If you really are encouraged to 'take what you need and leave the rest' why does it not, in reality, at real life AA meetings, happen? Why is something 70 odd years old not moving with the times? can you imagine what the reaction would be if cancer was treated in the same way now as in the thirties despite the advancement in knowledge? We have so much more information and awareness about alcohol abuse yet aren't allowed to stray from archaic and anachronistic teachings! Scary.

[resultsOriented]

I know nothing of AA. Iwas told in another thread to night you didn't have to believe in a higher power to go to AA. Some of this god works through AA stuff seems to contradict that. What is the truth?

[CarolD]

Coolmummy...
I can't speak about what happens in the meetings
you atended.
In the hour my home group meets we discuss how
to follow the AA program.

It's not a debateing group.....
It's a design for living for anyone interested.
People who are not interested....don't stay.

[CarolD]

esultsOriented...Hi again....

It's my experience that not all AA members use the
same concept of a higher power.
Heck....I've met many who use none.

Please don't let this deter you from quitting drinking.
There are many ways for people to stop. AA is not
the only one.

I'm going to your orginal thread and give you more
options. That way I won't be de railing this one.

[resultsOriented]

carol
Ok am able to be open-minded sorry somewhat flailing around in the dark at the moment.

[CarolD]

Your doing great for a member who joined us hours ago.
No problem RO

[Pinkcuda]

Given the low success rate of AA, does anyone not question the theory.

Is a "low success rate" a symptom of people questioning what goes on? What is in the book is AA. "To show other precisley how we have recovered is the purpose of this book"
When we do something that is not described in the book or use another method it's not AA. Unfortunatley it's done behind the doors of AA so AA get's the blame. I see more "Life Ring" in AA meetings then I see AA in AA meetings.
So the fact that the "Theory" is questioned in the first place is the problem.
The "Solution" is described in the book. It's just too bad we're trying to hug and slogan each other sober and call it AA

[Bamboozle]

Originally Posted by ElegantlyWasted

Also, like anything else you get out of it what you put into it. Relapse rates are high for all treatment methods.

How true.

This is what scares me. Many people don't make it no matter what method they use. Anyone can relapse.


In the end it comes down to 'drink' or 'do not drink'.


All the rest is learning how to handle being human without being under the influence. There are many ways to do this.

[Dee74]

I used to be terrified of relapse too...

then I kinda figured...none of my relapses were ever spontaneous events...if I was totally honest with myself (and you have to be) the picking up of a drink again was *always* signposted....sometimes a long way back.

I think as long as you can train yourself to recognize the signposts and not dismiss them, and as long as you've made sure you have a good support network, and as long you put down the pride and actually reach out when you need to...you'll be in good shape to stay on track

D

[shaun00]

AA has a low success rate compared to what?
for me..here in the uk.........its plainly obvious.

alcoholics that only do meetings.......most go out again.

alcoholics that engage in the suggested program of action AND have a experienced sponsor for a year or 2.....most stay sober.....and recover.
AA members are responsible for the distant between the two....fellowship/program.
the programs been the same......people have changed the fellowship..

for me......only engaging in the steps and talk of that solution in the meetings works.
talking mindless drivvle......mindless catch phrases.....and group therapy in aa does nothing for the suffering drunk......they just get drunk.

when i make bread....and play with the reciepe.......guess what i get...
pancakes....

[Ago]

Alcoholism, according to AA is not up for debate or progression. AA still continues to practice on the findings of the original founders.

I wasn't aware it had been proven wrong, did I miss the memo? So far haven't most studies reinforced AA's findings?

I suppose AA is kind of like the wheel, some use it as a frisbee, some as something to cook on, some as something to sit on, then there are those of us that follow instructions and use it to roll away to freedom.

I tried for a lot of years to re-invent the wheel, turns out it had already been invented and came with instructions, who'da thunk

[Coolmummy]

I think I'd better stay away from this part of the forum if debating is frowned upon...

[yeahgr8]

I go to a CBT counselor, great guy, been doing it for 20 years...thinks AA is great if the resource works for that individual.

We were talking about AA last week, he was saying the exact same thing, maybe AA should change a bit...he reckons that it is far too lenient and there should be a strike policy like have a relapse and you aren't allowed back in for 6 months like a good residential program would and also have a vetting process to see how ready the individual is and enforce the working of the 12 steps with ongoing appraisals by sponsors.

That would be moving with the times but, personally, i would rather put up with the serial relapsers quoting their **** counselors with phrases like relapse is part of recovery than totally exclude them from the program of AA...it's not an exact science IMO you have to have the door open for anyone who has a desire to stop drinking no mattter how insane and full of **** they are when they walk through the door:-)

As for debating the program of AA we have a little group of 6 at our meeting who regularly do that, after the meeting at about the same time they order a beer...they do try and come back in the next meeting and tell us their findings but fortunately there are always people their with long term proper sobriety to clarify their statements to the newcomers...or we would all be getting pissed up with them at the end of the meetings hehe

[CarolD]

CoolMama ....
I thought you wanted to discuss your experiences with AA
meetings. Since I have not attended any meetings as
you described....I could not share about what you stated.

Then.....I noticed this on another Forum

I have not used AA myself.
__________________
There's no future in the past..

Obviously you have no experience of your own
about AA meetings.
I think a discussion is more interesting if a
person knows the subject from personal experience.