AA-Alcoholism-The science

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Iriss

Maybe I am wrong, but this is precisely my point. Was AA, at it's inception based on "God" (as the early christian's saw it/he/she), and has it not evolved over the years to be based on "God, however you perceive God to be"?

No; the idea of "Why don't you choose your own concept of God" predated AA




Tyler those people were all still drinking

[Tommyh]

Originally Posted by Iriss

Maybe I am wrong, but this is precisely my point. Was AA, at it's inception based on "God" (as the early christian's saw it/he/she), and has it not evolved over the years to be based on "God, however you perceive God to be"?

Iriss,AA did spin out of the Oxford Group,as I understand them,they was a strictly Christian Group of people.Now Ebby visited Bill W and said He could have his own conception of God.That apparently came from Ebby and not from the Oxford Group.It seems to go against their Oxford Group Christian principles.But it works with us alkies right well sometimes.

[Mark75]

I challenge everyone to prove Tyler wrong... I'm sure we can! He won't mind. And, Tyler, aside from a little scuffle there with Bugs, I think we are actually moving towards a reasonable exchange of ideas and maybe even moving towards a little mutual understanding, which of course allows for disagreement...

Iriss... it is my understanding that AA is based on a spiritual solution for alcoholism. That the founders were very interested in being inclusive to all understandings of God, not just christian ideology. In fact, there is nothing in the Big Book about Jesus, Moses, Buddha, etc... That's why it's a spiritual program, not religious...

I like how dog said it... It was just the donkey SOME of them rode in on.... lol....

It has ALWAYS been "God, as you understand Him...."

Mark

[McGowdog]

Yeah, I don't follow the tenants of the Oxford Groupers. I don't use "Purity, Honesty, Selflessness, and Love" as my creed. They are great "absolutes" I'm sure. To me, that stuff was just another "donkey" for a person to help them find a piece to the puzzle of sobriety.

But I work the 12 Steps as they are outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. If you'd like to get to know a bit more of my experience on these 12 Steps, hop on over to the 12 Step subforum and look at each of those 12 Step subforums and I have a thread started in each and every one.

I know enough to know the history of A.A. and how it got going. Dr. Bob had the solution. He got that from the Oxford Group, as did Bill. But that would not keep Dr Bob sober. Bill was given the "problem" about the real alcoholic from Dr. Silkworth and when he passed that "problem" to Dr Bob, who had the "solution", viola!

I'm sure there are great teachings and other philosophies out there on how to get and stay sober, but the 164 and 12 Traditions Long-Form is what I follow. Until they fail me, I'm not interested in much else, but thankyouverymuch.

[Pinkcuda]

Originally Posted by Iriss

Ok, thank you Pink... And this really isn't personal, but where did that awakening come from.... Was is it a rock bottom? Is that what it takes?

It was a rock bottom of sorts, but he wasn't drinking. He had felt scorned by the Fellowship. Back then before the traditions were even conceived a belief was a must. In fact, one was "12th stepped" his condition was discussed with his wife, his family and his employer if he had one. The prospect was discussed with the group and deemed to be worthy or unworthy to bring into the group. Steps one, two and three were completed before joining.
"Membership does not depend on money or conformity" was written into tradition three to open the doors to all who are suffering from alcoholism. "Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover" was also included.
This is from the 12&12 It's a paragraph or two describing Ed who had once been the scourge of Alcoholics Anonymous for blasphemy

In a neighboring state, Ed had holed up in a cheap hotel. After all his pleas for help had been rebuffed, these words rang in his fevered mind: "They have deserted me. I have been deserted by my own kind. This is the end . . . nothing is left." As he tossed on his bed, his hand brushed the bureau near by, touching a book. Opening the book, he read. It was a Gideon Bible. Ed never confided any more of what he saw and felt in that hotel room. It was the year 1938. He hasn't had a drink since.

The whole story of Ed can be found here.
* ARID * The 12th Files: The Story Of Ed * ARID *

[Pinkcuda]

Ed's story kind of gives me the creeps. My job a few years back involved staying about 250 nights a year in a hotel room. I was bored, lonley, miserable and drunk. Though I wasn't religious and had no use for God I can't describe the peace and comfort I felt just reading the Gideons Bible. Usually out of sheer boredom. Just opening myself to the possibility that some of this stuff in this book may be true was opening myself up to the possibility that God is actually with us. I have no authority to say that he isn't either.
But the feeling was indescribable.

[bugsworth]

Iriss, I think you ask some very important questions ones which answering are exceptionally difficult. If you are interested in aa's roots I would suggest going to Dick B's web site...he is a aa historian and a supporter of the program. Bill Wilson did get his ideas from the Oxford group by his own admission 6 out of the 12 steps came from that group. I do want to reiterate that sobriety is obtainable regardless of your belief or lack thereof in God. One of the many reasons I left aa after 10 months was due to the theology taught in the rooms. That is not to say that it is wrong for everybody but for me it was not compatible with my religious teachings and life experience. My sobriety has continued outside of aa...in fact my decision to leave aa was a turning point for me. If you have not done so already you might try to go to a meeting or two to see if the organization has anything to offer you that may benefit your sobriety...just rest assured that in no way does one have anything to do with the other.

[Mark75]

Bugs, I appreciate hearing what your experience was in the rooms of AA. What theology did you hear in the rooms?

No one can disagree with your own experience.

Mark

[bugsworth]

Mark, To begin with there is no formula (steps) that God responds to. In order to work the program of aa one must believe that God grants a daily reprieve based on spiritual fitness. Faith is the absence of knowing, yet aa gives a guarantee to its members of what God will do for them if certain steps are followed. I do not believe in a God that operates in this fashion. Certainly this subject is open for debate but my life experience, occupation and religious beliefs all negate this very idea.

[Mark75]

That's fine Bugs, thanx.

Mark

[Iriss]

Originally Posted by CarolD

Iris.....


Have you ever attended an AA meeting?
If so...what did you think about it?

I went three times a week for about four months. How did I feel? Disappointed, maybe a little envious of those who had found success in a place that I knew I was not going to. I had to continue to search.

[bugsworth]

Your welcome Mark...food for thought...

During the same time period that Wilson was writing the bb the Nazi party had convinced a whole country that Jews needed to be exterminated. 6 million Jewish people and millions of gypsies, gays and other non-Germans were exterminated. Now I understand that this may be an "outside" issue but does it not seem odd that God didn't respond to the millions of cries for help? Unfathomable that God wouldn't respond to the powerlessness that these people endured yet he turns his head towards the cries of an alcoholic who has control over what he consumes.

Like I said just food for thought.

[Mark75]

Seek and ye shall find.

IDK, An entire country (US) mobilized it's forces and resources, many young men lost their lives, to enter a war on the other side of the ocean to help and ultimately defeat the country that was exterminating the Jews.

Who are we to say exactly how we think God should answer our prayers?

Whatever Bugs, somehow our exchanges always enter a zone in which I neither expect nor am prepared for...

Lets just tip our hats and I'll let Iriss have her thread back...

Mark

[Ago]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Your welcome Mark...food for thought...

During the same time period that Wilson was writing the bb the Nazi party had convinced a whole country that Jews needed to be exterminated. 6 million Jewish people and millions of gypsies, gays and other non-Germans were exterminated. Now I understand that this may be an "outside" issue but does it not seem odd that God didn't respond to the millions of cries for help? Unfathomable that God wouldn't respond to the powerlessness that these people endured yet he turns his head towards the cries of an alcoholic who has control over what he consumes.

Like I said just food for thought.

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As a(n) internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches. The term Godwin's law can also refer to the tradition that whoever makes such a comparison is said to "lose" the debate.

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[2] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception").[6]

Godwin's Law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions. The corollaries of the law would presumably not apply to discussions covering genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi Germany, or, more debatably, to discussion of other totalitarian regimes, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances is understandable. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.

However, Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[7]

[Iriss]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Your welcome Mark...food for thought...

the Nazi party had convinced a whole country that Jews needed to be exterminated. .

Like I said just food for thought.

And what did we learn from this - The whole of Nazi Germany "conformed" to an ideaology or a belief.

[Charmie]

thank you very much Ago.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Iriss

And what did we learn from this - The whole of Nazi Germany "conformed" to an ideaology or a belief.

We learned that specious, puerile, irrelevant, and asinine comparisons of Nazi Germany to irrelevant issues is alive and well on the internet

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by Iriss

All science evolves.

Alcoholism, according to AA is not up for debate or progression.

Please provide attribution.

Originally Posted by Iriss

AA still continues to practice on the findings of the original founders. Given the low success rate of AA, does anyone not question the theory.

Please provide attribution.

Originally Posted by Iriss

Maybe there are key points in AA that are so relevant, that could be mixed with others that could make this programme more successful.

Yes, maybe, and I think it has been done elsewhere. With other programs. Can't say if those other programs were more successful in meeting their stated goals.

Thing is, if you don't like AA, there are other methods of achieving sobriety/recovery. What you seem to be suggesting, is akin to attending mass at the Catholic church, and then complaining that they don't follow your ideas as to what the service should be like.

The simplest solution is to look for something that you do like.

[Ago]

The Great White Shark has remained unchanged for millions upon millions of years

Great White Shark (Carcharodon carcharias)

Sharks and Rays are some of the earth's oldest fish with the two groups sharing a common ancestor evolving from placoderms (primitive jawed fishes) over 400 million years ago. Distant relatives are also the Megalodon or Megatooth Shark, and these creatures have been swimming the ocean waters long before the first dinosaur walked on land.

There are other predators, but The Great White remains unchanged simply because it is perfect the way it is. To coin a phrase The Great White is not the only fish in the sea. Just an effective one. I can talk about how much I dislike Great White's until the cows come home, but the fact remains it is an effective predator. "Some Scientists call it "perfect", although I have heard it is 25 million years old.

If it works just the way it is, why should it need to change, which, by the way AA has, it evolved until it is what you see today, the traditions were added later etc, however the basic text has remained unchanged because it works.

Most Scientific studies have actually confirmed AA's findings about alcoholism and addiction, not the inverse.

AA is here for you should you decide you need it, another thing just about every one of us in AA have in common is a disdain for AA prior to actually working the steps. We were bludgeoned into reasonableness.

I won't say the people in AA are perfect by any means, but IMO the Program itself is, what other anarchistic society have you ever seen that has no rules or fees, especially one run "by the inmates" as it were flourish to become a worldwide organization, one that has helped more alcoholics recover then all other methods combined.

AA works if you actually work it. People even say in meetings "take what you like and leave the rest", the only requirement for membership being you have to be an alcoholic with an honest desire to stop drinking. You don't have to believe anything, just want to stop drinking.

If you choose not to go to AA there other viable alternatives.

[agrippa]

Pinkcuda, chill.

This is a free country. Other people are just as entitled to their opinion as you are. Evibently, you are not secure enough in your faith to understand that. Playing the game of internet tough guy may not be useful to you in the long run. If that is what helps you, then go ahead.



However, this is not the venue to discuss/debate the relative merits/demerits of AA or any other modality. That is clear as crystal.

Owing to the fact that this matter is completely polarized finding a venue for that is diffucult. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

[Mark75]

was a post deleted?

[Pinkcuda]

No. Just a late comer trying to get in on the action.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by agrippa

However, this is not the venue to discuss/debate the relative merits/demerits of AA or any other modality. That is clear as crystal.

What do you mean here? The thread title is "AA-Alcoholism-The science".

Originally Posted by agrippa

Pinkcuda, chill.


Playing the game of internet tough guy may not be useful to you in the long run.

Originally Posted by agrippa

The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

[TheSunAlsoRises]

Thanks for Godwin's law Ago that is epic...

[allport]

I saw a great wildlife program last week (this is true) that showed Great Whites being hunted and killed by Killer Whales

Just saying lol