AA-Alcoholism-The science - Page 4 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

RobbyRobot · 11-01-2009, 05:59 PM

Iriss,

Simply freely choose to be agnostic and or atheisit, in your recovery. Just google to discover workable definitions of both.

Cheers!

tomvlll · 11-01-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Plenty of people care Pink. No matter how much certain members here at SR want to bury threads like this with bb quotes and step tutorials there will always be those who care more about alcoholics than they do about a flawed religious movement that has a success rate equal to remission rates. Just for the record I did not call aa a cult you did...an astute observation but your words not mine.

The Program of recovery in AA is outlined in a couple pages of in the chapter 'How it works ' in the BB. It's the steps. It comes with a disclaimer. For it to work, you have to be rigorously honest.

Do you have any credible research that measures the efficacy for people who have followed the program as intended? Hint: ' regular attendance at meetings' is irrelevant.

Every study I've ever seen of AA effectiveness is strictly anecdotal. It's akin to studying the effectiveness of aspirin in mediating headache pain by using as data the number of people who purchased aspirin, as opposed to those
who used it prescribed.

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

The Third tradition is meant to be inclusive. In the 12&12, Tradition 3 describes a member who refused to believe in God. Should he or should he not be entitled to membership with this attitude? This was pre-tradition.
I won't ruin it for you by telling you how it ends.

Forgive me for being ignorant, but would you enlighten me to how this ends?

**Dee74** · 11-01-2009, 06:09 PM

I wrote a big long post and it got lost LOL
hopefully this will make it more concise second time round.

I think Ago builds me a up a little calling what I do a programme.
Very simply I was killing myself and I didn't want to die just yet.

The first thing I did was not drink.

I finally got it through my head that this was a fight I could not win.
Every drink was a defeat for me.

I decided not to fight anymore.

I did everything I needed to in order not to drink again - I made sure I always had other options beside the obvious one to drink - always other things to do or people to call. I've not caved yet

The other part of my 'programme' was looking at why I drank.

I wasn't always an alcoholic, and to say that's why I drank might have become the truth, but it wasn't always so.

I believe I have underlying 'reasons' for my alcoholism and I never addressed them for years except to medicate them with drink...to work on those issues is an ongoing process, and takes a lot of honesty and diligence.

I try to make myself a better person and live a better life too - there's no need to get religious about that if you don't want to - I give a lot of time to service work here, I try to be a good man and a good partner...it's not rocket science - a happy and content person, grateful for what they have after the hell of drinking is IMO less likely to risk it all by drinking again

I think in hindsight all that is harder work for me than not drinking, but its rewarding too.

I see why most people pick a defined programme - there is safety in numbers and it is reassuring to have face to face contact.

Thats the briefest explanation I can give of what I do

God no God - just pick a programme you can work with, and work it, Iriss.
D

Cubile75 · 11-01-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriss

I love all that is living, that is dear to me, yet I cannot see any other power or force beyond this.

Perhaps that love you feel is a place to look... many feel that God is love...

Mark

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriss

Forgive me for being ignorant, but would you enlighten me to how this ends?

He went on to have an awakening helping spread the message to countless others.

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

He went on to have an awakening helping spread the message to countless others.

Ok, thank you Pink... And this really isn't personal, but where did that awakening come from.... Was is it a rock bottom? Is that what it takes?

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubile75

Perhaps that love you feel is a place to look... many feel that God is love...

Mark

Sorry for this, but would that love for "God" override all that is alive and visible?

Ago · 11-01-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriss

Sorry for this, but would that love for "God" override all that is alive and visible?

for me it means the same thing

God is everything but the little voice in my head

Cubile75 · 11-01-2009, 06:51 PM

God, as I understand him, is not really something I can put into words. And if I could, those words may not have the same meaning for you.

Maybe I can say this.... Back to the science thing... You mentioned evolution...

I've studied evolution and biology. It is amazing and miraculous. Embryology and how it recapitulates phylogeny (evolution)... wow! I believe in the science. The more I know of the science, however, the more I believe in a higher power.

But, that's just me.

Good thread.

Mark

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 07:00 PM

Hey Mark, The science must have stopped you somewhere along the lines. Your really cannot do both, evolution & god... But hey, sincerely I mean this, I'm glad you have sobriety. no matter how you found it x

Lenina · 11-01-2009, 07:05 PM

Iriss,

Why not? I don't understand.

Love,

Lenina

Cubile75 · 11-01-2009, 07:08 PM

See what I mean... The more I know, about anything, the more I believe in a higher power.... So, for me, evolution and God are not mutually exclusive. Were it not for the fact that your OP was about science v spirituality, I probably wouldn't even share this, because we all have to find our own way...

Mark

Ago · 11-01-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriss

Hey Mark, The science must have stopped you somewhere along the lines. Your really cannot do both, evolution & god... But hey, sincerely I mean this, I'm glad you have sobriety. no matter how you found it x

actually you can.

Einstein and Darwin did.

they were kinda smart

You can't "do" fundamentalist Christianity and Evolution, My "God" doesn't in fact have a "willy", need money, or have those ten rules, my "God" actually doesn't have anything to do with Christianity, but once I let go of anyone else's conception of God, and even my own old perceptions, and chose to have a "God of my own understanding" even as an Atheist Agnostic ...it's hard to explain.

In AA we don't care what your conception is, as a matter of fact it's none of our business, and it's REALLY none of anyone's business to push their own concept, but once again. me, Cube, Robby, Pink, and whoever else posted in this thread could be an atheist, worship vishna, be a wiccan, or even a Catholic, and we all agree entirely on spiritual principals.

God=love=action

it's super simple

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenina

Iriss,

Why not? I don't understand.

Love,

Lenina

Lenina, All I can say if you have found any solace and comfort in your beliefs, please do not let this thread question it x

Iriss x

Lenina · 11-01-2009, 07:28 PM

((((Iriss))))

My beliefs are my own. I am very open-minded and always enjoy hearing other people's points of view. My heart is more about love. Defining God is a very personal thing. I just don't see why "God" and evolution aren't compatible. I don't explain things well, I'm afraid.

I wish peace and serenity for your heart and mind.

Love,

Lenina

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 07:29 PM

AA was based and founded on " fundamentalist christianity"

Cubile75 · 11-01-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriss

AA was based and founded on " fundamentalist christianity"

Where did you hear that?

Mark

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 07:40 PM

Have the steps not changed, from "God" to a "god, or higher power in which we believe" ?

Ago · 11-01-2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriss

AA was based and founded on " fundamentalist christianity"

fundamentalist christianity doesn't ask you to choose your own concept of God

McGowdog · 11-01-2009, 07:43 PM

A.A. was based and founded on one drunk talking to another drunk.

Fundamental Chistianity is the donkey some of those drunks rode to get there.

tyler · 11-01-2009, 07:44 PM

[QUOTE=Ago;2418024I thought it was against the TOS to bash someone else's recovery plan, but somehow Bugs manages to bash AA day after tedious day, week after tedious week
[/QUOTE]

I hate to see anyone "bashing" anyone's "program", but you are wearing AA blinders here!! There were several threads in this forum discussing the effectivness of Naltrexone that were shut down, with many of the same AA people who are chiming in here, bashing that form of "recovery". For me personally, it has been far more effective that AA ever was, though I may not qualify as a "real alcoholic"

IMHO anything that helps people with a addiction problem lessen that problem is a good thing that shouldn't be "bashed" by anyone. I don't "bash" AA, NA, SMART, Naltrexone, Suboxone, addiction therapy, having Jesus cure your addiction, or any other method that works for you. If everyone would just share what works for them instead of insisting that they have the "one and only solution" this would be a much better place. Remember, when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you.

On a side note, I underestimated the lifespan of this thread. I gave it 24 hours, but it's made it 48...won't be long now!!!!

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 07:48 PM

Maybe I am wrong, but this is precisely my point. Was AA, at it's inception based on "God" (as the early christian's saw it/he/she), and has it not evolved over the years to be based on "God, however you perceive God to be"?

tyler · 11-01-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGowdog

A.A. was based and founded on one drunk talking to another drunk.

Fundamental Chistianity is the donkey some of those drunks rode to get there.

AA was, in fact, founded on the teachings of the Oxford Group. Here is an excellent history on this group.

http://silkworth.net/aahistory/what-...ford-group.pdf

If you would like to know more about the history of AA, this is an excellent website I have found. It is very unbiased. Enjoy.

The History of Alcoholics Anonymous

**CarolD** · 11-01-2009, 08:05 PM

Iris.....

Why not compare the 1st. Edition of the BB

Big Book

to the 4th ...the current one?

Big Book On Line

Read all about it....first hand

Have you ever attended an AA meeting?
If so...what did you think about it?

11-01-2009, 05:59 PM	#76 (permalink)
RobbyRobot Grokking Paradox Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 473	Easy Iriss, Simply freely choose to be agnostic and or atheisit, in your recovery. Just google to discover workable definitions of both. Cheers!

11-01-2009, 06:09 PM	#79 (permalink)
Dee74 Forum Leader Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: South Seas Posts: 14,686	I wrote a big long post and it got lost LOL hopefully this will make it more concise second time round. I think Ago builds me a up a little calling what I do a programme. Very simply I was killing myself and I didn't want to die just yet. The first thing I did was not drink. I finally got it through my head that this was a fight I could not win. Every drink was a defeat for me. I decided not to fight anymore. I did everything I needed to in order not to drink again - I made sure I always had other options beside the obvious one to drink - always other things to do or people to call. I've not caved yet The other part of my 'programme' was looking at why I drank. I wasn't always an alcoholic, and to say that's why I drank might have become the truth, but it wasn't always so. I believe I have underlying 'reasons' for my alcoholism and I never addressed them for years except to medicate them with drink...to work on those issues is an ongoing process, and takes a lot of honesty and diligence. I try to make myself a better person and live a better life too - there's no need to get religious about that if you don't want to - I give a lot of time to service work here, I try to be a good man and a good partner...it's not rocket science - a happy and content person, grateful for what they have after the hell of drinking is IMO less likely to risk it all by drinking again I think in hindsight all that is harder work for me than not drinking, but its rewarding too. I see why most people pick a defined programme - there is safety in numbers and it is reassuring to have face to face contact. Thats the briefest explanation I can give of what I do God no God - just pick a programme you can work with, and work it, Iriss. D __________________ May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be. May you not forget the infinite possibilities that are born of faith. May you use those gifts that you have received and pass on the love that has been given to you.

11-01-2009, 06:51 PM	#85 (permalink)
Cubile75 September 14, 2008 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: East of Eden Posts: 2,317	God, as I understand him, is not really something I can put into words. And if I could, those words may not have the same meaning for you. Maybe I can say this.... Back to the science thing... You mentioned evolution... I've studied evolution and biology. It is amazing and miraculous. Embryology and how it recapitulates phylogeny (evolution)... wow! I believe in the science. The more I know of the science, however, the more I believe in a higher power. But, that's just me. Good thread. Mark __________________ My drinkin' days are over. No more nights in the carousel. My buddies say they're gonna miss me, but they can go to hell. I never knew what time it was until closing time came 'round My drinkin' days are over but I'm still trouble bound. Slaid Cleaves

11-01-2009, 07:08 PM	#88 (permalink)
Cubile75 September 14, 2008 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: East of Eden Posts: 2,317	See what I mean... The more I know, about anything, the more I believe in a higher power.... So, for me, evolution and God are not mutually exclusive. Were it not for the fact that your OP was about science v spirituality, I probably wouldn't even share this, because we all have to find our own way... Mark __________________ My drinkin' days are over. No more nights in the carousel. My buddies say they're gonna miss me, but they can go to hell. I never knew what time it was until closing time came 'round My drinkin' days are over but I'm still trouble bound. Slaid Cleaves

11-01-2009, 07:43 PM	#96 (permalink)
McGowdog On Double Secret Probation Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Southern Colorado Posts: 1,087	A.A. was based and founded on one drunk talking to another drunk. Fundamental Chistianity is the donkey some of those drunks rode to get there. __________________ The alcoholic ego is like a baby... it has tremendous appetite on one end and no responsibility on the other-Paul Martin of Chicago Per SR guidelines... quotes or paraphrases from BB 1st Edition.

11-01-2009, 07:00 PM	#86 (permalink)
Iriss Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 171	Hey Mark, The science must have stopped you somewhere along the lines. Your really cannot do both, evolution & god... But hey, sincerely I mean this, I'm glad you have sobriety. no matter how you found it x

11-01-2009, 07:05 PM	#87 (permalink)
Lenina Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 1,368	Iriss, Why not? I don't understand. Love, Lenina

11-01-2009, 07:28 PM	#91 (permalink)
Lenina Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 1,368	((((Iriss)))) My beliefs are my own. I am very open-minded and always enjoy hearing other people's points of view. My heart is more about love. Defining God is a very personal thing. I just don't see why "God" and evolution aren't compatible. I don't explain things well, I'm afraid. I wish peace and serenity for your heart and mind. Love, Lenina

11-01-2009, 07:29 PM	#92 (permalink)
Iriss Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 171	AA was based and founded on " fundamentalist christianity"

11-01-2009, 07:40 PM	#94 (permalink)
Iriss Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 171	Have the steps not changed, from "God" to a "god, or higher power in which we believe" ?

11-01-2009, 07:44 PM	#97 (permalink)
tyler Not all better, getting better Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Beautiful Inner Banks of NC Posts: 1,230 Blog Entries: 3	[QUOTE=Ago;2418024I thought it was against the TOS to bash someone else's recovery plan, but somehow Bugs manages to bash AA day after tedious day, week after tedious week [/QUOTE] I hate to see anyone "bashing" anyone's "program", but you are wearing AA blinders here!! There were several threads in this forum discussing the effectivness of Naltrexone that were shut down, with many of the same AA people who are chiming in here, bashing that form of "recovery". For me personally, it has been far more effective that AA ever was, though I may not qualify as a "real alcoholic" IMHO anything that helps people with a addiction problem lessen that problem is a good thing that shouldn't be "bashed" by anyone. I don't "bash" AA, NA, SMART, Naltrexone, Suboxone, addiction therapy, having Jesus cure your addiction, or any other method that works for you. If everyone would just share what works for them instead of insisting that they have the "one and only solution" this would be a much better place. Remember, when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you. On a side note, I underestimated the lifespan of this thread. I gave it 24 hours, but it's made it 48...won't be long now!!!! __________________ Peace and Love, Tyler *"I used to do a little but a little wouldn't do it so a little got more and more. I just keep tryin' to get a little better, said a little better than before."* Mr. Brownstone G-n-R Heck is where people go who don't believe in Gosh

11-01-2009, 07:48 PM	#98 (permalink)
Iriss Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 171	Maybe I am wrong, but this is precisely my point. Was AA, at it's inception based on "God" (as the early christian's saw it/he/she), and has it not evolved over the years to be based on "God, however you perceive God to be"?

11-01-2009, 08:05 PM	#100 (permalink)
CarolD Forum Leader Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dallas, Ga. USA Posts: 21,904	Iris..... Why not compare the 1st. Edition of the BB Big Book to the 4th ...the current one? Big Book On Line Read all about it....first hand Have you ever attended an AA meeting? If so...what did you think about it? __________________ Each Day Sober Is A Victory!! Joy In AA Recovery! :

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