AA-Alcoholism-The science - Page 3 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

Ago · 11-01-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

OK "religious" Does that make you feel better?
Who really cares? In fact let's call it a cult if that does it for you.
I stand by my first post. Let me repeat it here. With Bold highlites

Is there any thing else Bugs?

Don't feed the trolls

I thought it was against the TOS to bash someone else's recovery plan, but somehow Bugs manages to bash AA day after tedious day, week after tedious week

/wanders away bored with mingled pity and disgust

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 11:11 AM

Plenty of people care Pink. No matter how much certain members here at SR want to bury threads like this with bb quotes and step tutorials there will always be those who care more about alcoholics than they do about a flawed religious movement that has a success rate equal to remission rates. Just for the record I did not call aa a cult you did...an astute observation but your words not mine.

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 11:13 AM

I can identify with the disgust you feel Ago...unless you have a different meaning for the word disgust...you never can tell.

ElegantlyWasted · 11-01-2009, 11:16 AM

Wow! Hot topic. For me I think that debate is great because at it's best it is a sincere effort to get to constructive course of action. Accordingly I have learned from this thread and know it has the potention to positively impact alot of people. The only thing I would like to see more of is actual sources for efficacy stats. Even real stats for effictive programs done with the best social science statistical techniques can be very misleading. You have to look at what the actual operational definitions are. Does drop out include " members that show up for only one meeting or those who have a sponsor and are working a program. I think the focus of this thread is how to actually best help the addict recover. To me it should be broken down simply. Addict is not living a constructive meaningful life. Addict comes to realize this And the role addiction plays. Addict realizes that in addition to abstaining from substances, maintaing sobriety requires a new approach to living life. Nothing wrong with the 12 as they are. Social norms change and hard science advances in ways that can help. AA is not dianetics and whatever you do outside AA is your business.

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 11:36 AM

What I find most interesting Bugs is your insistance that we are in control and recovery comes from within. Then you insist people are dying from alcoholism and once they set foot in AA they then can blame AA for the failure.
AA says "Powerless" you say "Not" How come we're not powerless over alcohol even though it's killing us in masses yet we turn into mush brained zombies who have little or no control over our actions once we set foot in AA?
Are we so weak minded that a reformed bar fly can convince us to disembowel Sharon Tate if that's what we need to do to stay sober?

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 11:56 AM

I never once stated that once people step foot in aa they can blame their inability to stay sober on aa. Where did you get that from?

By the tone of this post and the one that got deleted it would seem to me that real discussion is not on your agenda. I have been here for years Pink...you know my views on the powerlessness issue. Like I said your tone has become ugly and I am on the receiving end...I believe you have a column for this...as I have seen it said here many times...put me on it and turn it over.

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 12:04 PM

I think you know just enough about AA to be dangerous and spread a glut of misinformation all over the place.

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 12:09 PM

It would seem to me that in your opinion aa is in enough trouble already. Why is an opinion different than yours such a threat to you? To imply that some how I am dangerous is very telling.

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 12:19 PM

Because at present I do my part to get the correct message spread on the inside of the rooms. Your Booing and catcalls from the sidelines are discouraging someone and giving them a preconception before they set foot in the door at all. It's more than possible they may actually get something out of AA if they actually manage to get in the right group.
The question is "What are you doing to help your fellow alcoholic" and "What do you have to offer as an alternative"?
Aside from your incessant bitching, what have you passed on?

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 12:20 PM

Aside from your snide remarks and incessant ranting about how God gets people sober what have you passed on?

jimhere · 11-01-2009, 12:24 PM

I don't call this a debate.

I call it arguing. I call it sniping.

I see it helping no one.

Charmie · 11-01-2009, 12:37 PM

the science,the figures for success quite frankly are none of my business and i couldnt care less about them,i tried something and it worked where all else failed.i have a sparkle in my eye.i live an honest life and im happy.im there when the new person walks through the door.if they want to get well,i can show them what was shown to me.thats all.the rest dosnt matter.

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Aside from your snide remarks and incessant ranting about how God gets people sober what have you passed on?

Here Bugs, I posted this earlier this week. I thought I'd repost it here for your reading pleasure.

Quote:

So If it's needless to rely on God and his inspiration for strength when it comes to sobriety why rely on faith in God for anything? Why pray for peace and an end to world hunger? Let's just nail the Church Door shut and tell the congregation that they're wasting their time.
The answer is that with faith we get strength. With belief we get hope. With trust, we get inspiration.
I'll put my faith and trust in God and you keep scratching lottery tickets in hopes of winning. All you need is faith that it will happen someday. Right??? We keep scratching no matter how many times we've lost in the past. Faith and hope keeps us in line to buy tickets again and again.
Fortunatley when we put faith in God, we're instant winners. When we have faith in Lotto Tickets we'll be scratching for a long time.
Sorry for the analogy, but faith is faith.

For now, I have toilets to clean.

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 12:48 PM

I agree faith is faith...what it has to do with aa is beyond me.
Enjoy your day.

Boleo · 11-01-2009, 01:06 PM

People who bash AA are right - there are some things about AA that deserve bashing.

People who love AA are right - there are some things about AA that deserve praise.

People who call AA a cult are wrong - there are ALL kinds of people in AA - some of whom will argue with each other till the cows come home. Cults don't allow that sort of diversity.

AA's biggest weakness is diversity - not everyone is on the same page. AA's biggest strength is diversity - it's hard to put a lid on a can off worms.

jimhere · 11-01-2009, 01:09 PM

"AA's biggest weakness is diversity - not everyone is on the same page. AA's biggest strength is diversity - it's hard to put a lid on a can off worms."

One the beautiful things about A.A. is that you can do whatever the hell you want to do.

One of the tragic things about A.A. is that you can do whatever the hell want to do do.

**Dee74** · 11-01-2009, 01:33 PM

Ok, this last little fracas has not been a civil exchange of ideas, not is it a discussion that seems to be leading anywhere

Frankly how all this sniping could help someone else in trouble is beyond me.

Please lets remember why we're here.

Quote:

4. No Flaming: Posting of any content with the intention of disrupting the forum or inflaming members-be it on someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program. This includes flaming, flame baiting, registration of multiple accounts or impersonation of another member. Do not Harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress or discomfort upon another Online Forum participant. This includes flaming on our forums or other public forums.

No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun of, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.

Ignore bothersome members. If there is someone on the forum that bothers you, select the Ignore option.

thank you all for you co-operation.
D

Mark75 · 11-01-2009, 01:52 PM

Wow... yea Dee, I get it.... but man, when this stuff gets posted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I agree faith is faith...what it has to do with aa is beyond me.

... it's hard to sit quietly on the sidelines.

But I'll try.

Mark

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 04:45 PM

Thank you all, and am sorry if this post has caused, any upset. Just a little naive thought, What if you just don't believe in God or any other power or force outside of yourself other than yourself as a living, breathing organism. How do you then even start on step 1, 2, & 3? Is there no hope for us? Do we go away and find another programme that works for us? AA monopolises the world of alcoholism, and its difficult sometimes to live in a society which still believes AA holds all the answers. Yet for the majority, this is simply not true. So, whilst I am certainly not bashing AA, for those it works for, I am sure you consider yourselves very lucky. But for those that it has not helped, surely they are the only ones who can speak out to try to promote a change in attitude, not in AA but in society. One solution, certainly does not fit all. Thanks x

Ago · 11-01-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriss

Thank you all, and am sorry if this post has caused, any upset. Just a little naive thought, What if you just don't believe in God or any other power or force outside of yourself other than yourself as a living, breathing organism. How do you then even start on step 1, 2, & 3? Is there no hope for us? Do we go away and find another programme that works for us? AA monopolises the world of alcoholism, and its difficult sometimes to live in a society which still believes AA holds all the answers. Yet for the majority, this is simply not true. So, whilst I am certainly not bashing AA, for those it works for, I am sure you consider yourselves very lucky. But for those that it has not helped, surely they are the only ones who can speak out to try to promote a change in attitude, not in AA but in society. One solution, certainly does not fit all. Thanks x

there are other "programs" ask Dee and Smacked for examples of successful ones

I did this:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-three-aa.html (How I worked Step Three in AA)

RobbyRobot · 11-01-2009, 05:26 PM

Iriss,

The purpose of any recovery path is to establish a recoverd life. For some that recovery is ongoing [like myself], for others, it finishes ie: they are recovered, and they simply do something to keep sober, whatever that may be.

My ESH. Please believe me when i say that i would still be sober if i gave up my believe in God. God does not keep me sober, a program of recovery keeps me sober, thank you very much.

i also just chose to have a faith in God within my sobriety.

Whatever.

God is in my spiritual life for other reasons, much beyond sobriety, in fact. I'm not going to go into the details in this post, but not only could i get sober, stay sober and be happy without God, so can anybody else, [if they so choose] and many people do just exactly that. It's a big world

Living spiritually is a choice, otherwise it is slavery, and slavery is not ideal, yes? Let's all be honest, giving up one taskmaster for another is a horrible way to exist. Spiritual living is a choice pure and simple.

Nevermind what others are doing or not doing in their spritual life re: sobriety. There are many paths to sobriety, always believe that!

Freedom of choice concerning spirituality is a universal right which is only trampled by those persons who THEMSELVES FREELY CHOOSE to see with blindness and hear with deafness while they assault the freedoms of others. They are everywhere, so beware their ignorance; but also we must allow them their dull choices as well, or we forfeit the very thing we so enjoy ourselves.

Have a great day!

RobbyRobot

Ago · 11-01-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot

Living spiritually is a choice, otherwise it is slavery, and slavery is not ideal, yes? Let's all be honest, giving up one taskmaster for another is a horrible way to exist. Spiritual living is a choice pure and simple.

Nevermind what others are doing or not doing in their spritual life re: sobriety. There are many paths to sobriety, always believe that!

Freedom of choice concerning spirituality is a universal right which is only trampled by those persons who THEMSELVES FREELY CHOOSE to see with blindness and hear with deafness while they assault the freedoms of others. They are everywhere, so beware their ignorance; but also we must allow them their dull choices as well, or we forfeit the very thing we so enjoy ourselves.

Have a great day!

RobbyRobot

that was very nice Rob, thank you

It's possible to believe in "God" without believing in "A" God, or a deity, and Iriss, although Robby and I probably have very different conceptions of God, he and I could sit and talk about God and spiritual principals all night without one word of disagreement, that is the beauty of "why don't you choose your own concept of God" in AA

A spiritual way of living is alright, it really is

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 05:41 PM

Iriss...To begin with a belief in God has no bearing on sobriety. There are other "programs" such as SMART and Life Ring but the truth of the matter is that each of us as individuals must do the hard work. Putting our sobriety first is paramount...finding like minded people is also key. It is a hard road back to normal living but rest assured what ever path you walk can get you to the same destination. It is my personal belief that empowering people with the truth nets results that are life changing. I found it unnecessary to get tangled up in religious teachings when my life was on the line...keep things simple and know that if you want sobriety it is obtainable regardless of your beliefs in God.

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ago

that was very nice Rob, thank you

It's possible to believe in "God" without believing in "A" God, or a deity, and Iriss, although Robby and I probably have very different conceptions of God, he and I could sit and talk about God and spiritual principals all night without one word of disagreement, that is the beauty of "why don't you choose your own concept of God" in AA

A spiritual way of living is alright, it really is

Spirituality in itself it a beautiful word, and maybe I am even envious, but how do I choose my own concept of god, when all I believe in is the science of how we have evolved? I love all that is living, that is dear to me, yet I cannot see any other power or force beyond this. Thank you anyhow, I can feel you mean well x

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriss

Spirituality in itself it a beautiful word, and maybe I am even envious, but how do I choose my own concept of god, when all I believe in is the science of how we have evolved? I love all that is living, that is dear to me, yet I cannot see any other power or force beyond this. Thank you anyhow, I can feel you mean well x

The Third tradition is meant to be inclusive. In the 12&12, Tradition 3 describes a member who refused to believe in God. Should he or should he not be entitled to membership with this attitude? This was pre-tradition.
I won't ruin it for you by telling you how it ends.

11-01-2009, 11:16 AM	#54 (permalink)
ElegantlyWasted Excellence... not Perfection Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: AZ Posts: 1,190 Blog Entries: 8	Wow! Hot topic. For me I think that debate is great because at it's best it is a sincere effort to get to constructive course of action. Accordingly I have learned from this thread and know it has the potention to positively impact alot of people. The only thing I would like to see more of is actual sources for efficacy stats. Even real stats for effictive programs done with the best social science statistical techniques can be very misleading. You have to look at what the actual operational definitions are. Does drop out include " members that show up for only one meeting or those who have a sponsor and are working a program. I think the focus of this thread is how to actually best help the addict recover. To me it should be broken down simply. Addict is not living a constructive meaningful life. Addict comes to realize this And the role addiction plays. Addict realizes that in addition to abstaining from substances, maintaing sobriety requires a new approach to living life. Nothing wrong with the 12 as they are. Social norms change and hard science advances in ways that can help. AA is not dianetics and whatever you do outside AA is your business. __________________ "We're all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the children's game, we just don't...we don't know when that's gonna be. Some of us are told at eighteen, some of us are told at forty, but we're all told."

11-01-2009, 01:06 PM	#65 (permalink)
Boleo boleon Join Date: May 2008 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 3,121	People who bash AA are right - there are some things about AA that deserve bashing. People who love AA are right - there are some things about AA that deserve praise. People who call AA a cult are wrong - there are ALL kinds of people in AA - some of whom will argue with each other till the cows come home. Cults don't allow that sort of diversity. AA's biggest weakness is diversity - not everyone is on the same page. AA's biggest strength is diversity - it's hard to put a lid on a can off worms. __________________ >>> If it makes sense - It ain't spiritual! - All Big Book quotes are from first Edition -

11-01-2009, 05:26 PM	#71 (permalink)
RobbyRobot hello world Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,292	A Rose By Any Other Name Is Still A Rose Iriss, The purpose of any recovery path is to establish a recoverd life. For some that recovery is ongoing [like myself], for others, it finishes ie: they are recovered, and they simply do something to keep sober, whatever that may be. My ESH. Please believe me when i say that i would still be sober if i gave up my believe in God. God does not keep me sober, a program of recovery keeps me sober, thank you very much. i also just chose to have a faith in God within my sobriety. Whatever. God is in my spiritual life for other reasons, much beyond sobriety, in fact. I'm not going to go into the details in this post, but not only could i get sober, stay sober and be happy without God, so can anybody else, [if they so choose] and many people do just exactly that. It's a big world Living spiritually is a choice, otherwise it is slavery, and slavery is not ideal, yes? Let's all be honest, giving up one taskmaster for another is a horrible way to exist. Spiritual living is a choice pure and simple. Nevermind what others are doing or not doing in their spritual life re: sobriety. There are many paths to sobriety, always believe that! Freedom of choice concerning spirituality is a universal right which is only trampled by those persons who THEMSELVES FREELY CHOOSE to see with blindness and hear with deafness while they assault the freedoms of others. They are everywhere, so beware their ignorance; but also we must allow them their dull choices as well, or we forfeit the very thing we so enjoy ourselves. Have a great day! RobbyRobot

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11-01-2009, 11:11 AM	#52 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,925	Plenty of people care Pink. No matter how much certain members here at SR want to bury threads like this with bb quotes and step tutorials there will always be those who care more about alcoholics than they do about a flawed religious movement that has a success rate equal to remission rates. Just for the record I did not call aa a cult you did...an astute observation but your words not mine.

11-01-2009, 11:13 AM	#53 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,925	I can identify with the disgust you feel Ago...unless you have a different meaning for the word disgust...you never can tell.

11-01-2009, 11:36 AM	#55 (permalink)
Pinkcuda Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Colorado Prairie Posts: 1,418	What I find most interesting Bugs is your insistance that we are in control and recovery comes from within. Then you insist people are dying from alcoholism and once they set foot in AA they then can blame AA for the failure. AA says "Powerless" you say "Not" How come we're not powerless over alcohol even though it's killing us in masses yet we turn into mush brained zombies who have little or no control over our actions once we set foot in AA? Are we so weak minded that a reformed bar fly can convince us to disembowel Sharon Tate if that's what we need to do to stay sober?

11-01-2009, 11:56 AM	#56 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,925	I never once stated that once people step foot in aa they can blame their inability to stay sober on aa. Where did you get that from? By the tone of this post and the one that got deleted it would seem to me that real discussion is not on your agenda. I have been here for years Pink...you know my views on the powerlessness issue. Like I said your tone has become ugly and I am on the receiving end...I believe you have a column for this...as I have seen it said here many times...put me on it and turn it over.

11-01-2009, 12:04 PM	#57 (permalink)
Pinkcuda Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Colorado Prairie Posts: 1,418	I think you know just enough about AA to be dangerous and spread a glut of misinformation all over the place.

11-01-2009, 12:09 PM	#58 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,925	It would seem to me that in your opinion aa is in enough trouble already. Why is an opinion different than yours such a threat to you? To imply that some how I am dangerous is very telling.

11-01-2009, 12:19 PM	#59 (permalink)
Pinkcuda Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Colorado Prairie Posts: 1,418	Because at present I do my part to get the correct message spread on the inside of the rooms. Your Booing and catcalls from the sidelines are discouraging someone and giving them a preconception before they set foot in the door at all. It's more than possible they may actually get something out of AA if they actually manage to get in the right group. The question is "What are you doing to help your fellow alcoholic" and "What do you have to offer as an alternative"? Aside from your incessant bitching, what have you passed on?

11-01-2009, 12:20 PM	#60 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,925	Aside from your snide remarks and incessant ranting about how God gets people sober what have you passed on?

11-01-2009, 12:24 PM	#61 (permalink)
jimhere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 2,392	I don't call this a debate. I call it arguing. I call it sniping. I see it helping no one.

11-01-2009, 12:37 PM	#62 (permalink)
Charmie Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,322	the science,the figures for success quite frankly are none of my business and i couldnt care less about them,i tried something and it worked where all else failed.i have a sparkle in my eye.i live an honest life and im happy.im there when the new person walks through the door.if they want to get well,i can show them what was shown to me.thats all.the rest dosnt matter.

11-01-2009, 12:48 PM	#64 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,925	I agree faith is faith...what it has to do with aa is beyond me. Enjoy your day.

11-01-2009, 01:09 PM	#66 (permalink)
jimhere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 2,392	"AA's biggest weakness is diversity - not everyone is on the same page. AA's biggest strength is diversity - it's hard to put a lid on a can off worms." One the beautiful things about A.A. is that you can do whatever the hell you want to do. One of the tragic things about A.A. is that you can do whatever the hell want to do do.

11-01-2009, 04:45 PM	#69 (permalink)
Iriss Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 187	Thank you all, and am sorry if this post has caused, any upset. Just a little naive thought, What if you just don't believe in God or any other power or force outside of yourself other than yourself as a living, breathing organism. How do you then even start on step 1, 2, & 3? Is there no hope for us? Do we go away and find another programme that works for us? AA monopolises the world of alcoholism, and its difficult sometimes to live in a society which still believes AA holds all the answers. Yet for the majority, this is simply not true. So, whilst I am certainly not bashing AA, for those it works for, I am sure you consider yourselves very lucky. But for those that it has not helped, surely they are the only ones who can speak out to try to promote a change in attitude, not in AA but in society. One solution, certainly does not fit all. Thanks x

11-01-2009, 05:41 PM	#73 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,925	Iriss...To begin with a belief in God has no bearing on sobriety. There are other "programs" such as SMART and Life Ring but the truth of the matter is that each of us as individuals must do the hard work. Putting our sobriety first is paramount...finding like minded people is also key. It is a hard road back to normal living but rest assured what ever path you walk can get you to the same destination. It is my personal belief that empowering people with the truth nets results that are life changing. I found it unnecessary to get tangled up in religious teachings when my life was on the line...keep things simple and know that if you want sobriety it is obtainable regardless of your beliefs in God.

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