AA-Alcoholism-The science - Page 2 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

Coolmummy · 11-01-2009, 05:21 AM

Please do not be patronising. Just because I have not done something myself doesn't mean I am not allowed an opinion on it - or does it here? I can funnily enough talk and have talked to people who have used AA and have read of people who have used it. I have read enough literature to know that I would not wish to be involved muself but still feel I should be alowed to pass comment. Clearly not. I will leave SR now with my nine months of sobriety intact. Good luck to you all.

Cubile75 · 11-01-2009, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeahgr8

We were talking about AA last week, he was saying the exact same thing, maybe AA should change a bit...he reckons that it is far too lenient and there should be a strike policy like have a relapse and you aren't allowed back in for 6 months like a good residential program would and also have a vetting process to see how ready the individual is and enforce the working of the 12 steps with ongoing appraisals by sponsors.

Hey Cliff... The quote is what your counsellor said, just to keep things clear!

That's utter bullsh#t... wow! It would be like the best surgeons operating with lifesaving techniques only operating on those most likely to live so their statistics would be favorable... so what about the poor guy who needs it, but can't get it because he was vetted out....

I haven't used this one.... it applies

Mark

jimhere · 11-01-2009, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coolmummy

Please do not be patronising. Just because I have not done something myself doesn't mean I am not allowed an opinion on it - or does it here? I can funnily enough talk and have talked to people who have used AA and have read of people who have used it. I have read enough literature to know that I would not wish to be involved muself but still feel I should be alowed to pass comment. Clearly not. I will leave SR now with my nine months of sobriety intact. Good luck to you all.

I for one, am not interested in your opinion of an experience you've never had.

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 07:02 AM

Iriss..I think that you will find that many people do question aa ideology. In fact it has been debated since its inception. Fortunately the number of people who find its ideology and religious teachings deplorable are becoming more vocal as the internet is becoming the sole vehicle for communication.

I agree that aa is not science based...it is faith based. The success rates have not changed...they are the same as they have always been. Many of the original founders went back to drinking...hence the changing of the stories in the back of the book.

**CarolD** · 11-01-2009, 07:32 AM

Hmm.....

Where did you get this idea?

Quote:

Many of the original founders went back to drinking...hence the changing of the stories in the back of the book.

It's my undersanding ....that the stories were changed to reflect the
changeing of our times. Nothing to do with sobriety time.

AA members were asked to submit their personal stories to the
AASW committee planning to publish Edition 2.
Same is true for the 3rd and 4th Edition.

Each Edition has added more stories.
some outdated ones were dropped.

Just curious as to your source Bugs

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 07:42 AM

Carol...there is a list of the original 40 aa members. (100 was not accurate) This list is available on Dick B's website or it was at one time...it shows which members and subsequent stories needed to be removed due to lack of sobriety. I do know of other sites which provide this info but posting the links is not allowed.

**CarolD** · 11-01-2009, 07:47 AM

OK Thanks....

Sorry....I did not understand you were talking about
Edition 1. I was talking about Editions 2-3-4.

Here is a link with the orginal stories-First Edition

AA Big Book -- The Stories

Those were the ones published

The AAWS selection committee information can be
found on the official AA site.

Alcoholics Anonymous : How to Find A.A. Meetings

Charmie · 11-01-2009, 08:40 AM

these debates seem to turn up every couple of weeks,and its always the same folk AA bashing.i tried AA four years ago and i failed it,,me.i went again at the begining of the year and worked my butt off.my life has changed beyond recogniton.the failings in AA are down to human ego most of the time not the programme.i followed instructions as outlined in the big book.and it worked,no kicking and screaming,no thinking my way was better (where had that got me exaclty??? ) i just got on with it.dont try and fix something that aint broke.

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 08:57 AM

It was deleted so I'll rewrite it a little more PC this time as to not offend anyone. I've offended enough people by simply talking about God in an AA meeting.

Here is AA. The five Ws and the how are described in the book. In a nutshell, "here is how we got sober" if you are interested come in and sit down and we'll explain it to you.
If it doesn't interest you, that's fine and you're more than welcome to go find what you're looking for elsewhere and find your sobriety some other way.
Please do not try to change AA into what you want AA to be and then blame AA for the failure.
Quietly slip away and go find something else that will work.

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 09:26 AM

Sobriety is not something you find...it is something you do. I have never been interested in changing aa...it is a religious organization which has its followers so in some way it serves its purpose. The problem with slipping away quietly is that silence does not serve a purpose. The opposite of love is not hate it is indifference...if everyone remained indifferent on the subject the truth that sobriety is up to the individual, not God, would remain cloaked. Freedom of speech remain one of our greatest rights...I encourage everyone to use it. BTW your original post (the one deleted) shows how well the program brings its members serenity.

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 09:37 AM

Bugs, the list of institutions that are of no interest to me is infinite. The list of institutions whose philosophies or principles I disagree withis just as large. I simply choose not to mention them in any part of any conversation I may have. I do not defend, debate or question their motives or actions. Why the obsession with AA on your part if it doesn't interest you??

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 09:42 AM

Because lives are at stake...people are being misled, misguided and at times lied to...all under the guise of God. I didn't say it didn't interest me, I said I have no interest in changing aa. Big difference.

bballdad · 11-01-2009, 09:46 AM

there is no low recovery rate with those who really try.

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 09:47 AM

I agree bballdad...those that want to quit do.

Iriss · 11-01-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bballdad

there is no low recovery rate with those who really try.

It did not realise it was so simple. Thanks

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Because lives are at stake...people are being misled, misguided and at times lied to...all under the guise of God. I didn't say it didn't interest me, I said I have no interest in changing aa. Big difference.

The misleading, lies and misguidance are the problem. This is what needs to change because this isn't AA. This is what we get from treatment centers sending anyone and everyone to AA regardless of their problem. The spew comes along with this. AA as it was intended is what's described in the book, not what it's morphed into. Then you say you have no desire to change it. It's already changed and it needs to be put back the way it was.
Booing from the sidelines isn't going to change anything.

Cubile75 · 11-01-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Fortunately the number of people who find its ideology and religious teachings deplorable are becoming more vocal as the internet is becoming the sole vehicle for communication.

Not Religious, spiritual

Not Religious, spiritual

Deplorable? Hmm, strong words I think... It never ceases to amaze me how one can find a message of hope and serenity and another finds it deplorable. That's OK. What's not OK is intolerance based on spirituality (beliefs), race, social class.... ignorance.... etc..... By anybody.

Mark

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 10:13 AM

We agree that the lies, misleading and misguidance are the problem. The difference is our opinions of where it is generated from. If aa is "Put back the way it was" nothing would change, it would still be a religious organization that makes promises it should not.
Why is my booing any different than yours?

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 10:14 AM

Mark...you can repeat the mantra all you want, it does not change the fact.
A helmet might help if you keep banging your head...lol

jimhere · 11-01-2009, 10:17 AM

I might be helpful if all parties, both for and against were to realize that this kind of debate helps no one.

Cubile75 · 11-01-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugsworth

it does not change the fact.

Oh jeez... here we go again.... I think that voices on all sides of an issue are important and a wise person will listen to them all.

But, can we get our FACTS straight?

Mark

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 10:20 AM

Jim...debating is a form of communication...an exchange of ideas and perspective. Certainly if kept civil it causes no harm.

Cubile75 · 11-01-2009, 10:21 AM

Jim's right, I'm outta here....

Mark

bugsworth · 11-01-2009, 10:23 AM

The fact is Mark that aa is religious...our courts have made this decision a number of times. I understand that you are repeating what you are taught, I can't fault you for it.

Pinkcuda · 11-01-2009, 10:58 AM

OK "religious" Does that make you feel better?
Who really cares? In fact let's call it a cult if that does it for you.
I stand by my first post. Let me repeat it here. With Bold highlites

Quote:

Here is AA. The five Ws and the how are described in the book. In a nutshell, "here is how we got sober" if you are interested come in and sit down and we'll explain it to you.
If it doesn't interest you, that's fine and you're more than welcome to go find what you're looking for elsewhere and find your sobriety some other way.
Please do not try to change AA into what you want AA to be and then blame AA for the failure.
Quietly slip away and go find something else that will work.

Is there any thing else Bugs?

11-01-2009, 05:21 AM	#26 (permalink)
Coolmummy Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: UK Posts: 241	Please do not be patronising. Just because I have not done something myself doesn't mean I am not allowed an opinion on it - or does it here? I can funnily enough talk and have talked to people who have used AA and have read of people who have used it. I have read enough literature to know that I would not wish to be involved muself but still feel I should be alowed to pass comment. Clearly not. I will leave SR now with my nine months of sobriety intact. Good luck to you all. __________________ *There's no future in the past..*

11-01-2009, 07:02 AM	#29 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	Iriss..I think that you will find that many people do question aa ideology. In fact it has been debated since its inception. Fortunately the number of people who find its ideology and religious teachings deplorable are becoming more vocal as the internet is becoming the sole vehicle for communication. I agree that aa is not science based...it is faith based. The success rates have not changed...they are the same as they have always been. Many of the original founders went back to drinking...hence the changing of the stories in the back of the book. __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

11-01-2009, 07:42 AM	#31 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	Carol...there is a list of the original 40 aa members. (100 was not accurate) This list is available on Dick B's website or it was at one time...it shows which members and subsequent stories needed to be removed due to lack of sobriety. I do know of other sites which provide this info but posting the links is not allowed. __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

11-01-2009, 07:47 AM	#32 (permalink)
CarolD Forum Leader Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dallas, Ga. USA Posts: 21,881	OK Thanks.... Sorry....I did not understand you were talking about Edition 1. I was talking about Editions 2-3-4. Here is a link with the orginal stories-First Edition AA Big Book -- The Stories Those were the ones published The AAWS selection committee information can be found on the official AA site. Alcoholics Anonymous : How to Find A.A. Meetings __________________ Each Day Sober Is A Victory!! Joy In AA Recovery! : Last edited by CarolD; 11-01-2009 at 08:09 AM. Reason: Added Link

11-01-2009, 09:26 AM	#35 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	Sobriety is not something you find...it is something you do. I have never been interested in changing aa...it is a religious organization which has its followers so in some way it serves its purpose. The problem with slipping away quietly is that silence does not serve a purpose. The opposite of love is not hate it is indifference...if everyone remained indifferent on the subject the truth that sobriety is up to the individual, not God, would remain cloaked. Freedom of speech remain one of our greatest rights...I encourage everyone to use it. BTW your original post (the one deleted) shows how well the program brings its members serenity. __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

11-01-2009, 08:40 AM	#33 (permalink)
Charmie Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 714	these debates seem to turn up every couple of weeks,and its always the same folk AA bashing.i tried AA four years ago and i failed it,,me.i went again at the begining of the year and worked my butt off.my life has changed beyond recogniton.the failings in AA are down to human ego most of the time not the programme.i followed instructions as outlined in the big book.and it worked,no kicking and screaming,no thinking my way was better (where had that got me exaclty??? ) i just got on with it.dont try and fix something that aint broke.

11-01-2009, 08:57 AM	#34 (permalink)
Pinkcuda Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Colorado Prairie Posts: 1,188	It was deleted so I'll rewrite it a little more PC this time as to not offend anyone. I've offended enough people by simply talking about God in an AA meeting. Here is AA. The five Ws and the how are described in the book. In a nutshell, "here is how we got sober" if you are interested come in and sit down and we'll explain it to you. If it doesn't interest you, that's fine and you're more than welcome to go find what you're looking for elsewhere and find your sobriety some other way. Please do not try to change AA into what you want AA to be and then blame AA for the failure. Quietly slip away and go find something else that will work.

11-01-2009, 09:37 AM	#36 (permalink)
Pinkcuda Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Colorado Prairie Posts: 1,188	Bugs, the list of institutions that are of no interest to me is infinite. The list of institutions whose philosophies or principles I disagree withis just as large. I simply choose not to mention them in any part of any conversation I may have. I do not defend, debate or question their motives or actions. Why the obsession with AA on your part if it doesn't interest you??

11-01-2009, 09:42 AM	#37 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	Because lives are at stake...people are being misled, misguided and at times lied to...all under the guise of God. I didn't say it didn't interest me, I said I have no interest in changing aa. Big difference. __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

11-01-2009, 09:46 AM	#38 (permalink)
bballdad Is my work solid so far? Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albemarle,N.C. Posts: 2,024	there is no low recovery rate with those who really try. __________________ Faith should not stand in the wisdom of men,but in the Power of God

11-01-2009, 09:47 AM	#39 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	I agree bballdad...those that want to quit do. __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

11-01-2009, 10:13 AM	#43 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	We agree that the lies, misleading and misguidance are the problem. The difference is our opinions of where it is generated from. If aa is "Put back the way it was" nothing would change, it would still be a religious organization that makes promises it should not. Why is my booing any different than yours? __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

11-01-2009, 10:14 AM	#44 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	Mark...you can repeat the mantra all you want, it does not change the fact. A helmet might help if you keep banging your head...lol __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

11-01-2009, 10:17 AM	#45 (permalink)
jimhere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 2,320	I might be helpful if all parties, both for and against were to realize that this kind of debate helps no one.

11-01-2009, 10:20 AM	#47 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	Jim...debating is a form of communication...an exchange of ideas and perspective. Certainly if kept civil it causes no harm. __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

11-01-2009, 10:21 AM	#48 (permalink)
Cubile75 September 14, 2008 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: East of Eden Posts: 2,302	Jim's right, I'm outta here.... Mark __________________ My drinkin' days are over. No more nights in the carousel. My buddies say they're gonna miss me, but they can go to hell. I never knew what time it was until closing time came 'round My drinkin' days are over but I'm still trouble bound. Slaid Cleaves

11-01-2009, 10:23 AM	#49 (permalink)
bugsworth Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,857	The fact is Mark that aa is religious...our courts have made this decision a number of times. I understand that you are repeating what you are taught, I can't fault you for it. __________________ Alcoholism is a disease of choice, one you catch from open bottles.

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