Perception

[bugsworth]

There have been some recent threads regarding alcoholism which have made me consider how important ones perception is to recovery.

I am of the mindset that alcoholism is not a disease...my issues with alcohol fall squarely on my shoulders...I take responsibility for my past drinking including all the ramifications that ensued from my behavior. I also take full responsibility for my current and future sobriety.

This perception lends itself to much ire when shared. I am genuinely curious as to why this is. I see disease everyday both mental and physical...in no way can my behavior surrounding alcohol be compared.

I suppose I would like some feedback as to why some members reject personal responsibility as a solution to addictive behavior. In addition I am curious as to why on a forum as large as SR and so obviously filled with a myriad of different personality types would a few vocal members want to deny the role they played in their own problem. I don't mean this to be disparaging in anyway and am sincerely hoping that I can glean some insight as to why personal responsibility is not in the forefront of individual recovery.

Dawn

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

There have been some recent threads regarding alcoholism which have made me consider how important ones perception is to recovery.

I am of the mindset that alcoholism is not a disease...my issues with alcohol fall squarely on my shoulders...I take responsibility for my past drinking including all the ramifications that ensued from my behavior. I also take full responsibility for my current and future sobriety.

This perception lends itself to much ire when shared. I am genuinely curious as to why this is. I see disease everyday both mental and physical...in no way can my behavior surrounding alcohol be compared.

I suppose I would like some feedback as to why some members reject personal responsibility as a solution to addictive behavior.
Dawn

If I'm reading this right, it seems that you think that those of us who believe in the disease concept of alcoholism don't take personal responsibility for our recovery?

I'm a little confused as to what made you come to that conclusion.

[chrisinaustin]

Personal responsibility takes a huge role in my recovery. For me, AA (and the totality of the life that I now live) is a program of action. Take the right action, get the right life. When I was drinking, I took no action, carried no responsibility. That being said, I was ill. Deathly ill. I was long past the point of making a choice about what I did. When I had my first drink at 14, I chose that, sure -- but the way it made me feel -- the way it reprogrammed me from head to toe in an instant... that was not my choice. A particular affliction, tendency, genetic malformation, genetic blessing -- whatever -- still not a choice.

When I was at the liquor store at 9:58 AM, desperate, every fiber of my being in profound agitation and discomfort, I basically had no choice but to be there. Then I had to make the choice of cash or credit. The former I would drop the change; the latter, it was nearly impossible with my hand shaking so bad to even scribble my name.

So I guess I had choice at the very beginning with that first drink (albeit as a kid), and of course one may point out that I had choice at the very end, when I quit. But for me that was a profound Step 1 spiritual experience for the ages, and I am still awestruck by the power that allowed me to make it.

When one looks at afflictions we obviously know as disease proper, like cancer, many can be traced back to a personal choice -- smoking, diet -- or something that with sufficient knowledge one could attempt to take responsibility for, like environmental toxin exposure. Does this diminish cancer as a disease?

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Chris

[Bob23]

While nothing and no one ever forced me to pour liquor down my throat the way I did, at some point, I too lost the ability to "choose". Much like chrisinaustin describes, I remember vividly mornings where the only thing on my mind was to get more.

Today, removed from that hopeless state of mind and body, I am free to choose again. I take full responsibility for my past. It's my best defense against drinking again.

[bugsworth]

Sailor...thanks for the reply. There are those who absolutely do not believe their sobriety is obtain by there own volition. I have no problem with this unless those of us who do are routinely dismissed.

chrisinaustin...I agree during physical addiction choice is exceptionally difficult to muster if not impossible for certain individuals. After physical addiction is addressed choice is paramount to recovery.

I will not even address the analogy that cancer and alcoholism exist in the same category. It is simply not true.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

...I am of the mindset that alcoholism is not a disease...my issues with alcohol fall squarely on my shoulders...I take responsibility for my past drinking including all the ramifications that ensued from my behavior. I also take full responsibility for my current and future sobriety

...I suppose I would like some feedback as to why some members reject personal responsibility as a solution to addictive behavior.

Dawn

I agree with you that alcoholism is NOT a disease. I also agree with you that recovery is 100% about personal responsibility. For me, I get that in A.A. when I take the 3rd Step. To me, the 3rd step is the hurdle we have to jump that says, "I am responsible from here on out." It's my responsibility to do my recovery path (A.A. in my case), to seek God, to do all these steps, to get the results of sobriety and to share the success to those who are willing to accept it.

I don't believe that my recovery path is about sitting back in a meeting and waiting for spiritual principles to come raining down on me or to "let go of the wheel" and let God steer the submarine.

You talk about "behavior" and "choice" and stuff like that. I won't go with you there. But it's just a difference in perception perhaps. I've got a perception that works for me.

I'll show you a list of words that we can argue and fuss over until the cows come home, but they're just words;

• Disease

• Recovering

• Choice

• God

• Addiction

• Will power

• Cured

I've been here long enough to know where to post certain things. The more specific "12 Step" subforum is the better place for a lot of my experience in recovery.

I've been trying to find our common ground. I think I could come up with a few things we might agree upon;

• Personal health and happiness

• Being a productive and caring individual in society

• Being sober and free of mind altering drugs

• Sharing our positive (what worked) and negative (what didn't work) experience of recovery on our respective paths

Bob23! Welcome to SR. The 12 Step subforum will be to your liking I think!

They say you should introduce yourself over in the newcomers, but I don't think you're a newcomer to my type of recovery.

[bugsworth]

Bob,

I hear both you and chrisinastin...I was there too. Choice as you stated, returns after physical addiction is addressed. Personal responsibility is a choice...be responsible or not.

Thanks for the reply.

[penny74]

l believe that one is responsible for ones own actions.
Bob23 said
"I remember vividly mornings where the only thing on my mind was to get more."
Did that as well. And might do it in the future.
But it was and will be me who is responsible.


Go away...I'm alright.
- Last words of H. G. Wells

[Rowan]

While I am of the belief that alcoholism is a disease, it doesn't mean (to me) that I am not responsible for my behaviour while in active addiction.

My relationship with my eldest daughter comes to mind. I haven't seen her in six years - her choice. I could blame alcoholism, say it's a disease, and absolve myself of any and all responsibility. I choose not to do so. I have taken responsibility, made amends, and left the rest up to her (and God).

I find it difficult to forgive myself for things I said or did while in my disease. But I work toward doing so, and toward being a healthy and productive member of society today.

For me, it really is as simple as that.

[bugsworth]

McGow...while I don't want to engage in aa theology I am extremely encouraged to read your views.

I am encouraged because it is very hard to share with newcomers my ES&H when other members dismiss it. There have been times when I have been questioned about my drinking and being somewhat guarded I tend to not reveal the depths of which I sunk.

I was a dead woman walking...in the past you dismissed this as dramatic when it was the reality of my situation. My voice has always and will always be one of hope...one of freedom...and one of strength. Is the recovery of those whose perception does not match the treatment industry not count? Example...A newcomer comes seeking help...I say...You are stronger than you think...think the drink to the end...reach out for an open hand and choose sobriety. My post will with out a doubt be followed by another member stating.....If I had a choice I wouldn't be an alcoholic.

I understand that the element of choice is difficult for you to acknowledge but it is valid in many peoples sobriety.

[bugsworth]

Rowan...as a mother I acknowledge the pain you have had to endure and the strength it takes to move forward. I thank you for your wisdom...I have learned a lot from you.

[yeahgr8]

A disease or medical condition is an abnormal condition of an organism...

or a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.

or any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.

It affected my brain! I went chicken oriental (mental)...but am being restored to sanity...whoop whoop!

I do accept responsibility for my old days and for my recovery...it just happens to be in AA cos it works if you work it, so work it, you're worth it:-)

[bugsworth]

yeahgr8

Whoop whoop...lol...I picture you with your arm over head while you do this. Thanks for the smile!

As I stated before I work in the medical field and when you have witnessed a disease ravage the human body you can't even begin to think deliberately pouring alcohol down ones throat compares.

[soberat23]

I like to look at this thing as a dis-ease of my brain whether im inebreated or not. I just have a hard time living and coping. i agree that this can not be compared to a disease like cancer. i watched my grandfather die from cancer, and there was nothing he or anyone else could do to help him. it was horrible. i always had the choice to stop, i just didnt think that i could do it. i was too scared, and yes it was physically painful. i couldnt stop until i had enough and lost everything and my enablers stopped. my perceprion was indeed off. it seemed impossible to stop and be happy without feeling different, and now i have almost 18 months sober and happy.

[bugsworth]

Congrats on 18 months soberat. I'm sorry for your loss.

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

As I stated before I work in the medical field and when you have witnessed a disease ravage the human body you can't even begin to think deliberately pouring alcohol down ones throat compares.

Most of us aren't comparing here. You seem to be, for whatever reason. Couldn't help but notice you posted observations from your personal experiences in the medical field twice. Alcoholism has ravaged my family of origin, call it what you like, a disease, a mental illness, the outcomes have probably been just as ugly as cancer, if I wanted to compare outcomes.

Ironic, stomach cancer nearly killed my Dad, he sobered up coming off a 5 year road trip after nearly 20 years of sobriety-he was more than happy to tell me last year of a study linking cancer of the stomach to excess alcohol consumption.

[Mark75]

I do not think alcoholism is a disease. Drinking was a choice. My nervous system, brain, personality, whatever... always made the choice to drink.

So no disagreement there.

Using will power to overcome my own will to choose to drink won't work for me. It's hurts too much, it takes too much psychic energy... So unlike you, I decided to abdicate my choice to a power greater than I.

So rather than work against the grain day by day, and be miserable, I accept that I will always choose, or want to choose, to drink. It just is.

So when that wind of alcoholism blows, am I the oak tree or the reed? I am the reed... I made that choice.

Mark

[bugsworth]

I'm not comparing, just stating what I see daily.
My family is not untouched by this. My natural father froze to death at 52 when he went into the woods to drink a 12 pack. A jogger found him frozen with a can in his hand.

[bugsworth]

Cub...using will power may not work for you but there are many of us for which will power was the stepping stone to change. Is it not possible that this strength which lies within us can't be promoted and utilized?

[Mark75]

I have much inner strength. I have accomplished many things in my life, overcome adversity and succeeded in ways that others didn't think I could.

I have willpower... plenty of it when I want to use it.

When it comes to alcohol, for whatever reason, I can't rely on myself to want to (use my willpower....).

You can and that is great... If I have unwittingly implied that I do not think others can use their own willpower as a stepping stone to change, then I have some work to do on what I say and do, and where I say it...

Deciding to abdicate my choice took a lot of courage, for me, BTW.

Mark

[bugsworth]

I do believe faith is a sign of courage. I think you over look the fact that many of us who do not advocate the program you do also have faith. My faith lies in the belief that upon birth I was given all the tools needed to successfully navigate the twist and turns that life brings. Thank you for acknowledging that we can all use some restraint in pen and tongue when it comes to our beliefs. People in pain need the promise of hope...hope is never black and white.

[Mark75]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I think you over look the fact that many of us who do not advocate the program you do also have faith.

That is an assumption you made

My faith lies in the belief that upon birth I was given all the tools needed to successfully navigate the twist and turns that life brings.

Me too, And my tools are as strong as yours

Thank you for acknowledging that we can all use some restraint in pen and tongue when it comes to our beliefs.

"all" as in you and I?

People in pain need the promise of hope...hope is never black and white.

Amen to that.

Mark

[bugsworth]

You are right I should not assume you believe that but from past experience most people draw that conclusion.

If both our tools are equal in strength let us both advocate in favor of the desires of newcomer whom gravitates towards the others ES&H.

Absolutely "all" meaning both you and I.

[Mark75]

Deal...

[Iriss]

Hi - and thank you for this thread it is really thought provoking. Willpower (internal) or higher power (external), either way if it works stick with it and good luck. I, however have found no success yet with either.... Cherish what you have, no matter what method you used to gain it... x