Perception

[Rob B]

This thread will be locked soon and that's probably for the best.I said to myself I was going to stay out of this, that was two days ago,if wer'e talking truth, I'll share mine, I need God to stay sober, others don't, that's cool with me.Where I get very rigid is when people want to argue my experience, this is not up for debate. I am beyond human aid, without GOd I will drink and die.

If an individual doesn't need God to stay sober, good for them. AA may not be the best place. What works for me may or may not work for someone else, It is arrogant to think that my experience is the way it will unfold for everyone else. I can share what happened to me and try to remain open to other ideas that I personally have no experience with.

[jimhere]

"Jim..you are free to believe what you want about me and as much as I respect you, your opinion regarding my alcohol abuse is of no matter to me, in fact I have gotten use to being called a "hard drinker" around these parts.
I will offer up a consideration that the man of which you speak truly does not want to quit....some people just never get there and choose the path of least resistance. It sounds harsh but indeed it is a fact...wanting something and working for it are two different things."

Hi Bugs,

I answer to your consideration, yes I always consider that possibility. I see them all the time, the ones that use our detox as a place to rest up for a few days. And I'm experienced enough to recognize desperation in the eyes of those that do want to stop but can't. You know my opinion of the brand of AA that tells a guy like that to not drink no matter what and to go to meetings. A guy like that needs more than a simple "Don't drink and be a nice person." He needs a whole new mind. I know that because I am guy like that.

You never did answer my question though. What would you, yourself tell a guy like that?
Peace,
Jim

[Ago]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

There have been some recent threads regarding alcoholism which have made me consider how important ones perception is to recovery.

I am of the mindset that alcoholism is not a disease...

my issues with alcohol fall squarely on my shoulders...I take responsibility for my past drinking including all the ramifications that ensued from my behavior. I also take full responsibility for my current and future sobriety.

This perception lends itself to much ire when shared. I am genuinely curious as to why this is. I see disease everyday both mental and physical...in no way can my behavior surrounding alcohol be compared.

I suppose I would like some feedback as to why some members reject personal responsibility as a solution to addictive behavior.

a few vocal members want to deny the role they played in their own problem.

I don't mean this to be disparaging in anyway and

am sincerely hoping that I can glean some insight as to why personal responsibility is not in the forefront of individual recovery.

Dawn

What is the purpose of this Thread really?

Your questions have been answered repeatedly and respectfully, and while you say you don't want to be disparaging, it appears your response to those who have tried to explain to you their views while being respectful of yours are in fact very disparaging.

I get it, you believe alcoholism is a choice, that all you have to do is make the decision to stop drinking, and you do.

I respect that view but it's not my experience. I respect your right to have that view and feel many views are important including yours, I am not able to help everyone, I appreciate folks like Dee, Ananda, Bamboozle, SFGirl, Smacked, people with differing views then me whether or not they are in AA. I can only help who I can help, the people who Identify with me, we need all of us and all our messages to be an effective team to help still suffering alcoholics achieve sobriety

I was not trying to "convert" you, I was actually really making an effort to answer your question, that those "few vocal people" you targeted actually not only take responsibility for their alcoholism, ie; drinking, they take nearly unheard of personal responsibility by working the steps, making restitution, going back through their lives honestly and thoroughly.

Your questions have been answered, no one, or I should say I am not trying to convert you, just see my/our point of view, that's all and answer your questions.

So if this thread is not actually to get your questions answered, what is the purpose? Is it to target that vocal minority? If so, to what purpose?

Are you angry we are misusing your God? That is not a facetious statement, you make reference earlier to all these people in AA "not knowing what they are talking about and trying to convert others", are you angry because you feel we are misunderstand God, that we are not "allowed" to have a "God of our understanding"? I ask because you accused me of heresy.

I just don't understand the point of this whole thread if it's not actually to get your questions answered and not actually respond respectfully and thoughtfully and try to understand the replies and not just shoot them down and be disparaging to the people who posted them.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

Thanks for your post, jim. I did drink that day...my last relapse lasted 2.5 weeks. That last relapse was a huge wake up call...the hardest one by far to overcome.

I'm grateful for my doctor, therapist, and most importantly the people at SR. Everyone here has helped me in one way or another. I've argued with people many times and I didn't want to hear the truth...for a long time I couldn't. Something stuck...I'm glad it did.

Sometimes there is worse things an alcoholic can do than drink. I'm glad you drank.
Jim

[Bamboozle]

Originally Posted by jimhere

Sometimes there is worse things an alcoholic can do than drink. I'm glad you drank.
Jim

Yeah. I don't recommend relapsing to anyone. That being said I honestly think that things had to go down the way it did for me in order for me to wake up. I don't ever want to go to that place again.

Thanks, Jim.

[mumbai78]

We may choose to not assume responsibility for our alcoholism but we sure as hell need to assume full responsibility for our recovery.

It is a fact that a lot of people use the "disease" excuse to justify constant relapsing. I'm not suggesting that relapses should never happen but it is important to stand up and take the FULL blame for the relapse.

[kurtrambis]

Originally Posted by Rob B

This thread will be locked soon and that's probably for the best.I said to myself I was going to stay out of this, that was two days ago,if wer'e talking truth, I'll share mine, I need God to stay sober, others don't, that's cool with me.Where I get very rigid is when people want to argue my experience, this is not up for debate. I am beyond human aid, without GOd I will drink and die.

If an individual doesn't need God to stay sober, good for them. AA may not be the best place. What works for me may or may not work for someone else, It is arrogant to think that my experience is the way it will unfold for everyone else. I can share what happened to me and try to remain open to other ideas that I personally have no experience with.

I agree rob and like you I keep saying I won't get involved, maybe its my ego, addictive personality or a bloke thing that I feel I need to get involved I would like to think it is based on genuine concern for the alcoholic.

I admit in the past in defence of what I feel are insinuations that AA works for everybody, that everybody who drinks has lost contact with god or needs god or that what I say is invalid because I have relapsed this year I have tried to defended myself by getting dragged into not only trying disprove the said above points but disprove AA and peoples experience in AA as a whole and for this I am truly sorry. Especially as I have gained much from others peoples experience, it was disrespectful of me.

I think this over eager attitude of mine has hurt me TBH. As the big book says, you step on the toes of the others and they retaliate.
I get upset it increases my already bad anxiety. This happened a few days ago and I nearly drank but I didn't and hopefully its lesson learned. Not to avoid debates but to not get to involved and emotional about it.

I'm glad you gain strength from your higher power and with AA are living a good sober life, long may it continue.

[bugsworth]

Thanks to all who posted. Since a number of posts were deleted I will simply consider the matter closed as I did have a chance to read the thread before the offending posts were removed. Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread and to those who tolerate my membership here at SR.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

Yeah. I don't recommend relapsing to anyone. That being said I honestly think that things had to go down the way it did for me in order for me to wake up. I don't ever want to go to that place again.

Thanks, Jim.

The fact that you drank may have saved your life. The cool part is that you don't have to go to that place again. Contrary to a belief that is possible in some circles, relapse isn't part of recovery. Due to the nature of alcoholism, it will occur from time to time, but it isn't part of the deal. You never have to drink again.
Jim

[Lo0p]

...

[David 1]

From the April 2007 Scientific American Magazine - Do a google search on Scientific American Magazine Alcoholism and you will find the following article - I found it very interesting. Sorry about the long post but this is just an excerpt so you can get a flavor of the complexity of the genetic components of human behavior.

Seeking the Connections: Alcoholism and Our Genes
Identifying genetic influences on vulnerability to alcohol addiction can lead to more targeted treatments and help those at risk to make informed choices about their own lives

By John I. Nurnberger, Jr., and Laura Jean Bierut


"The Collaborative Study on the Genetics of Alcoholism (coga) project has been structured around families, but this type of research has also strengthened understanding of the relative importance of specific gene variants as risk factors in different ethnic groups. This is not to say that certain ethnicities are more prone to alcoholism; instead, like the ALDH1 gene version that makes many East Asians intolerant of alcohol, certain of the genetic variants that contribute to risk are much more prevalent in some ethnic groups than in others. The knowledge that such genes are likely to be influencing dependence in patients belonging to one of these populations is another tool that can be used to assess the nature of an individual's problem and to tailor treatment accordingly.

Our research group recently discovered, for example, that variation in a gene encoding a receptor involved in taste perception, known as hTAS2R16, is significantly linked to alcoholism in the COGA subjects. The risk variant, which causes decreased sensitivity to many bitter taste compounds, is uncommon in European Americans, whereas 45 percent of African-Americans carry this version, making it a much more significant risk factor in that population.

The genetic contributions to dependence identified so far affect many different aspects of human physiology, from alcohol metabolism to brain activity and taste perception just in the examples we have described. The effect of each of these genes by itself is modest, probably increasing average risk by 20 to 40 percent, and other as yet unidentified genes undoubtedly also contribute to vulnerability to alcohol problems.

An important test to confirm and refine these genetic findings is to see how they influence people early in life, even before the onset of heavy drinking, and whether the variants can predict the later development of alcoholism. COGA added such a prospective arm to the study to follow young members of the high-risk families. Initial results have shown that in adolescents, the ADH gene risk variants are indeed associated with early drinking and subsequent development of alcohol problems. Carriers of the CHRM2 risk variants, however, are more likely to have early symptoms of depression than drinking problems when they are adolescents. Youngsters with the GABRA2 risk variant more frequently display conduct problems, such as trouble with the police, fighting and expulsion from school, rather than early drinking. In young adults, on the other hand, the GABA receptor gene risk variants do become associated with alcohol dependence.

These findings reinforce the notion that there are different paths to alcohol dependence and different physiological pathways underlying them. The ADH risk variants may contribute to the development of alcoholism directly by promoting heavy drinking, whereas the GABRA2 variants predispose a person to conduct problems, which are themselves a risk factor for alcoholism. Meanwhile CHRM2 may act through depression and other internalizing symptoms to foster drinking.

As more genes are linked to the development of alcohol dependence, these insights will be used to improve tools for gauging an individual's risk for developing alcoholism and identifying those with alcohol problems who may respond better to specific treatments. Doctors commonly consider a person's genetic profile and other family and environmental risk factors when combining medications and behavioral prescriptions for complex conditions such as hypertension, cancer and bipolar affective disorder. Clinicians are in the earliest stages of using genetic variants to shape treatment decisions for alcoholism, and in the future we expect to have molecular guidelines to help develop such individualized strategies.

The recent genetic findings related to alcoholism may also suggest ways to improve the prevention and treatment of smoking and other forms of substance dependence that are frequently seen in people with alcohol problems and tend to cluster in the same families. Mood and anxiety disorders fall into this category as well, and the association between CHRM2 variations, alcoholism and depression illustrates how these problems may stem in part from a common source. Improved understanding of alcohol dependence should therefore help dissect factors involved in the development of related conditions."

[Ago]

Just say no to genetic predispositions and clinical findings, fuzzy numbers fuzzy numbers

you read this David? fascinating

How We Get Addicted - TIME


I am thankful for this thread and have learned a great deal in this thread about levels of personal responsibility people choose to display in their recovery.

Kurt, I wanted to especially thank you for stepping up in your last post, that was heroic