Perception

[LosingmyMisery]

For some of us... like me for instance... had to drink booze to get a notion that I might want sobriety, that I might have a desire.

Nobody else...and I mean nobody else, could provide that desire for me. Booze was the "great persuader" for me. Thank you booze.

I agree, absolutely. I chose sobriety every day and failed. I wanted to quit drinking, but couldn't do it. I didn't now how. I was addicted to the max. Remember coming off of booze and having the shakes and the horrible anxiety hit, having your skin crawl? I would feel like a caged animal pacing and would do anything to get that next drink. I would inevitably give in to the impulse. I did this for years.

My point being is, it is much, much, more than choosing sobriety. Like I said, I chose it every day and failed. Telling someone to kick your will power up a notch or two never worked for me and I suspect there are others out there like me. My next question would be, after choosing sobriety, what's next? For myself, I worked a program. That is what got me sober. I made the the choice to do something different and acted on it. It was much more than making a choice of using my will power. After choosing to get sober, came action, action and more action.

[McGowdog]

I honestly don't know why... after having that desire, did I finally submit to the process and decide in.. into that action you speak of. I just did.

If I could bottle THAT up and pass it around, I'd do it. I cannot even get a newcomer to the realization that I might have a solution for them.

So I sit back and wait... watch.

You know... doing 12 Step work was never a gaurantee to get another sober from what I've read or seen. It's merely insurance for me. But once in a great while, someone else takes the hook... which brings me back to the questions... why? How?

[bugsworth]

Jim, while I understand that what you see on a detox unit is horrifying you stated that you see these people be released. Unfortunately the diseases I see people suffering from are never released. 9 times out of 10 they die. I am curious if you have ever seen someone die from Necrotizing fasciitis...it is slow and painful and the patient has to watch as their flesh disintegrates of their bones. COPD and end stage lung cancer is also not pretty to watch. Colon and pancreatic cancer leave patients writhing in pain for days, weeks and even months before it takes them. I could site hundreds of other ways I have seen patients die and none of them ever involved deliberately pouring a liquid down their own throats.

I agree with LMM after choosing sobriety the tough work begins.

[Mark75]

I've seen a few die of COPD and lung cancer.... their deaths are pretty painful to watch... most of the time their disease had something to do with deliberately sucking smoke into their lungs...

hmm... Bugs, I keep trying to find common ground here... but I realize it is a one sided effort. I think it must be some kind of ACoA behavior of mine... but that's OK, I don't lose sleep over it....

Let me ask you something though. Do you feel less compassion for the guy dying of alcoholic liver failure than of metastatic colon cancer? Sometimes I wonder if your recovery has something do with feeling contempt....

Mark

[bugsworth]

Firstly while many people do get lung cancer from smoking you will be surprised at the numbers that don't. I recently had a patient who was dying of lung cancer not cause he smoked but because he started his career as a fire fighter in the late 1940's before face masks and before scientist knew the effects of asbestos. He spent years saving lives only to give his own in the end. Another gentleman was a Vietnam vet who died from lung cancer after the effects of the various poisons he inhaled during the war. The list is longer but I assume you get my drift.
Mark you couldn't be more off base with you assumption that I feel contempt of any kind if that is what you glean from my posts that is on you not me. Maybe it is hard to find any common ground because I absolutely believe it is morally reprehensible to make promises on Gods behalf. I do not feel contempt for people who do this as it is what they have been taught to do by a program developed from the oxford group. I have done my research regarding the oxford group have you?

[Mark75]

People also get cirrhosis from causes other than alcohol... I assume you got my drift...

I know what the oxford group was... I know AA was a product of the oxford group... But, I am not an AA historian and cannot discuss this with any competence. OK, your contempt is toward AA...

Lets see.... MY POINT WAS.... hmmm

Choice.... Disease.... Suffering.... Compassion

Never mind.

Mark

[bugsworth]

Mark...it would seem you see what you want to see...a human characteristic for sure.
I am all for freedom of religion what I object to is making promises on Gods behalf.
Thanks for your posts.

[Mark75]

OK, so now the discussion is about making promises on God's behalf.

Bugs... I see what is in front of me... for a minute there I thought we were talking about people getting sick and dying... Jim brought up a point that the guy dying of cirrhosis probably didn't make the choice to die that way, ... Then you somehow distinguished that poor soul, no not distinguished..... diminished... that person from the person dying of COPD, oh no... wait a minute, dying of mesothelioma... that's better, not his fault, asbestosis... yea that's it....

Bugs, I see things as I see them, where did I get it wrong...

Tell me, what promises where made on God's behalf.... besides, say, eternal life....

Mark

[yeahgr8]

AA rules!

[jimhere]

Bugs, my point is that neither the alcoholic dying of liver failure nor the poor non-alcoholic dying horribly from necrotizing fascitis chooses that. I feel equal compassion for either.

Mark said you don't get it and you replied that you don't get it from his perspective. Could I pose the consideration that maybe it is not Mark's perspective that you don't get, it is the perspective of the alcoholic drinking against his or her will that you don't get. A non-alcoholic could never understand.

I'm going to say this point blank and I don't mean it as a personal attack. I don't really believe that you truly understand what it is like to not want to drink but find yourself drinking anyway. Like the guy in the detox at work who told me that all that is on his mind while he is sitting in that detox is drinking alcohol and how that all that is on his mind is not drinking alcohol. He doesn't want to drink but knows he will.

I'm curious, what would kind of answer would you offer him?
Jim

[keithj]

Originally Posted by jimhere

I'm curious, what would kind of answer would you offer him?

This is what I've been asking Bugs since I started engaging with her. What is her solution for the person that can't seem to stop drinking?

This has been interesting from the standpoint of gleaning a little insight into Bug's belief system (thanks for the back-handed compliment, Bugs!). Seems like her personal religious leanings are somehow offended by the idea of alcoholics invoking God for recovery.

And while that may be interesting in these discussions, it gets us no closer to
being useful to others. I would encourage every potential alcoholic to stop drinking by their own will power. Don't surrender. you're in control and use all your power. Exercise all of your might to stop drinking and see if it works.

If it doesn't, AA has a solution for you. What is Bug's solution for that? Just try harder?

[McGowdog]

Bugs, when did this thread become about comparing "diseases" with alcoholism?

One of your patients could get CHAGS* and you'll only have one alternative to put them on the pizza and pancake diet; not a cure for the malady, but something you can slide under the door. It doesn't fix anything. It's all drama to me. Ask these patients if they feel comfortable having their life terminating illness used to make a point on an alcoholism forum.

If I've got alcoholism, that's my concern. If you've got alcoholism and want to do something about it, that's my concern. I don't need a PhD to be helpful.

Ago, that post of yours (#64) was incredible. That's like 11 pages describing my experiences good and bad in A.A. over the last 16 years. That should earn you about 4 college credits or something.

*CHAGS; cancer, herpes, AIDS, Ghonnorea (sp?), and Syphillus (sp?). I'd look up the spelling of those words, but I don't even want them in my google bar, thank you very much.

[Bamboozle]

I fail to understand how this always ends up in a comparison between people who suffer from addiction vs. people who suffer from fill-in-the-blank illness…and then the whole mess gets tangled up into a big ball of morality arguments.

I had a choice not too long ago--drink or kill myself. I didn’t want to live anymore. I drank for the mental pain (I also picked up addiction to alcohol along the way). My depression kept me so far in the hole I didn’t think I had depression…therefore there was no one who could help. For some reason…some part of my brain compelled me to drink instead of kill myself…but also prompted me to reach out for help. It honestly could have gone either way. I just didn’t give a sh!t anymore and I really didn’t see the point to this thing called life.


Unless someone has been “there” it’s really hard to explain how this brand of logic works. Funny how now I think I know what people are talking about when they say "real alcoholic". The phrase still rubs me the wrong way (I'm waiting for someone to come along and kick me ), but I do know I couldn't think my way out of this. Because I feel like I have more control now, I have the illusion that I've always had control. Anytime my meds for depression aren't as effective or stop working I'm reminded of my reality.

I find it sad that fellow humans cast their moral judgments upon other human beings who are suffering and need help.

If all the people said to hell with me because I wasn’t suffering from cancer or flesh-eating disease…because I had a “choice” whereas these people didn’t…I’d be dead. Good thing some people cared enough to save my life.

[jimhere]

"I had a choice not too long ago--drink or kill myself."

Not much of a choice is it? Not really a choice at all. Either one becomes an option when it seems like there are no other options.

I'm glad you didn't take either road.
Jim

[Bamboozle]

Originally Posted by jimhere

I'm glad you didn't take either road.
Jim

Thanks for your post, jim. I did drink that day...my last relapse lasted 2.5 weeks. That last relapse was a huge wake up call...the hardest one by far to overcome.

I'm grateful for my doctor, therapist, and most importantly the people at SR. Everyone here has helped me in one way or another. I've argued with people many times and I didn't want to hear the truth...for a long time I couldn't. Something stuck...I'm glad it did.

[sugErspun]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I suppose I would like some feedback as to why some members reject personal responsibility as a solution to addictive behavior. In addition I am curious as to why on a forum as large as SR and so obviously filled with a myriad of different personality types would a few vocal members want to deny the role they played in their own problem. I don't mean this to be disparaging in anyway and am sincerely hoping that I can glean some insight as to why personal responsibility is not in the forefront of individual recovery.

I saw some very genuine responses to your inquiry. Each time you shot it down if it didn't line up with your personal views (on god, on recovery, on alcoholism, disease).

I didn't see a single reply that supported the notion of "no personal responsibility"...yet I read reply's that there is some attempt to convert you, to make you believe something you don't believe.

You work in the medical field. What is your "fields" view of alcoholism? Ask the doctors. Disease or Not?

You are very religious (from what I gather). Ask your spiritual guide (priest, pastor etc) ~ Where are you that your God is not? I would be curious what religion this is...(but I have a sense that it is not something which will be divulged).

Honestly - I see an agenda here that is anything but what is stated in the first post. It's not the first nor will it be the last.

How about taking some personal responsibility for stirring all this up. Perhaps you will learn some truth about yourself, motives, behaviors.

What I see is a set up. People share their honest views, experiences and get nothing but backlash about how wrong they are, how wrong AA is...all under the guise of curiosity and "honest interest".

I call "shenanigans"

[kurtrambis]

The problem with the internet forums is you can get bogged down in semantics and can appear we are all disagreeing with each other when ideas are probably closer than we think.

Simply saying its a choice can convey the idea that giving up an addiction is simple you just to stop. When giving up addiction can be very difficult.

Saying it disease can give rise idea you have no control whatsever. I drink drive it was my disease.

Whatever you call it, its up to you I choose simply call it an addiction. Maybe I will change my mind who knows.

[Bob23]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

...what I object to is making promises on Gods behalf.

In A.A, I have a god of my understanding; A higher power. And there are also Promises in the book. As long as I try to improve my conscious contact with my HP, these Promises will become true in my life. That's been my experience.

[bugsworth]

Mark....Like I said before you see what you want to see...I diminished nothing and since you know so little about me that assumption was sheer arrogance on your part. I watch people die more than I care to see and have never once in my career lacked compassion regardless of circumstances. Truth be told I have sat bedside with quite a few people who had no one with them at the end not ever because it was my job, but because I wanted to ease their pain and help them feel less afraid.

I am not sure why you don't understand my reference to "promises on Gods behalf"
You tell newcomers that they are powerless over alcohol and only God can help them...you then go on to say that if they follow the 12 steps God will remove the obsession to drink, character defects and will then run your will and life. If this is not a promise what is it? I have seen members of this board guarantee new members that if they follow their path God will do for them what they can't do for themselves. What part of the concept is difficult to understand?

Jim..you are free to believe what you want about me and as much as I respect you, your opinion regarding my alcohol abuse is of no matter to me, in fact I have gotten use to being called a "hard drinker" around these parts.
I will offer up a consideration that the man of which you speak truly does not want to quit....some people just never get there and choose the path of least resistance. It sounds harsh but indeed it is a fact...wanting something and working for it are two different things.

Sug...I referenced "convert" regarding Ago's post...there was much talk about God as if I didn't have faith...he is the atheist not I. I have stated that I am Christian...no secret there.
You like others will see what you want...agenda, shenanigans...call it what you like. What I see constantly is a handful of people telling others that they can't get sober without God..I see promises made to sick vulnerable people that are not promises that any of us are qualified to make.

McGow...with all due respect sometimes your humor cast a dark shadow on anything positive you might say. It also would be nice if you stuck with one personality...apologetic and humble via pm...abrasive and callous on the board. Try to just pick one and go with it.

[mariechi]

I'm a little afraid to post to this thread. I feel I am a responsible person. I hold a license and have for 20 years. I always believed in my ability to choose, and that has led me to some bizarre attempts at recovery. Being in the middle of the condition did not permit me to see it clearly. I did catch my disease from open bottles. I just didn't know they contained poison at the time. It took me years of living as and among "functional" alcoholics to really screw up. When I did, I learned more. My body is addicted to alcohol. That is liberating. It gives me a place to use my responsibility to choose.

So I guess I'm asking: Can the truth lie somewhere in the middle?

[CarolD]

I did close this thread and removed posts that were in
violation of

From our SR Policy Rules and Posting Forum

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Please do follow our posting rules ....otherwise more
posts will be removed and the thread locked.

Thank you

[CarolD]

mariechi .....
Good to know you are finding your way
Congratulations on your new sobriety.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by mariechi

I'm a little afraid to post to this thread. I feel I am a responsible person. I hold a license and have for 20 years. I always believed in my ability to choose, and that has led me to some bizarre attempts at recovery. Being in the middle of the condition did not permit me to see it clearly. I did catch my disease from open bottles. I just didn't know they contained poison at the time. It took me years of living as and among "functional" alcoholics to really screw up. When I did, I learned more. My body is addicted to alcohol. That is liberating. It gives me a place to use my responsibility to choose.

So I guess I'm asking: Can the truth lie somewhere in the middle?

Good question and welcome to SR. We are right next door to the 12 Step subforum where I frequent.

I use A.A. as my recovery path and this is my understanding about alcoholism; There are perhaps different levels of drinkers and even different levels of alcoholics.

I'm one of the "hopeless helpless life-or-death type alcoholics or what some call a "Maddog" Alcoholic.

The book A.A. says "Most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink." That's fine. I guess you can be an alcoholic and still have the power to choose. I've either lost it or never had it.

But I aim to respect those who still have it. If you can choose to not drink and exert your willpower, do it. If you can control and enjoy your drinking, hats off to ya. But if you need help getting and staying sober, we offer help.

Welcome.

[Mark75]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I diminished nothing and since you know so little about me that assumption was sheer arrogance on your part.

I have seen members of this board guarantee new members that if they follow their path God will do for them what they can't do for themselves. What part of the concept is difficult to understand?

No, it was based on your prior posts in this thread.

I have guaranteed nothing to anyone.

In a previous post I tried to find some common ground between us. For whatever reason you did not acknowledge it. I can't help wondering why. What was your intention by starting this thread, anyway?

Mark

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by mariechi

So I guess I'm asking: Can the truth lie somewhere in the middle?

Welcome!!!

What truth would that be?