Perception

[bugsworth]

LMM....Thank you for your post...

I hear you when you speak of the desperation and the longing of wanting out, I too was once there. It is hard to even put into words the last 6 months of my drinking...it was so dark and scary that I knew I was going to die...hell I wanted to die. In retrospect I see many lost opportunities...ones in which my desire to drink remained stronger than my desire to change. I knew I had to change yet I choose the buzz. How to teach a newcomer to want sobriety over the drink is not within our reach...nobody quits until they want to. There came a day where we both stood up and walked away. We both initially used the same tools...will-power, group support and resolve to make the change. We both suffered thru the pain, the self doubt and the uncertainty that comes with life altering change. Without a doubt we followed different avenues yet they landed us in the same place...free from the grips of addiction. Newcomers need to know that there is a transformation that takes place....that they are strong enough to overcome regardless of whether they believe it or not. Like you expressed it took time to realize just how strong you were, this is true for all of us. I think the key is just letting people know that they are indeed capable of change if it is what the truly seek.

[JohnnyZ]

I absolutely love this thread! I also just came to a realization that perhaps I'm very lucky to have had a medical incident (stroke) to help me choose to quit...

[LosingmyMisery]

I keep trying to think of something to add, but am stuck. The facts are we have to make the conscience decision to quit and have to really want it. The journey from there may be different from one another, but it all begins with choosing sobriety. For myself, I needed more than self-will, but another important key is a support system, other alcoholics to talk to, bounce thoughts and ideas off of. It is also important to know that your are not alone. AND there is a solution, it is doable. We have lots of proof here on this very thread.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery

So, how do you teach a newcomer to chose sobriety?


I keep trying to think of something to add, but am stuck...

For some of us... like me for instance... had to drink booze to get a notion that I might want sobriety, that I might have a desire.

Nobody else...and I mean nobody else, could provide that desire for me. Booze was the "great persuader" for me. Thank you booze.

[keithj]

I'm late to this thread and can only add a small part to what's already been an interesting and thoughtful discussion. Thanks, bugsworth.

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I am of the mindset that alcoholism is not a disease...my issues with alcohol fall squarely on my shoulders...I take responsibility for my past drinking including all the ramifications that ensued from my behavior. I also take full responsibility for my current and future sobriety.

I, too, take full responsibility for my past drinking and all the damage and harm it caused. I, too, take full responsibility for my current and future sobriety. When I compare the Big Book's jaywalking analogy in Chapter 3 to my own experience, the idea of alcoholism being a mental illness makes some sense, but I don't think it matters all that much when it comes to getting sober.

This issue has caused you frustration, Bugs, for as long as I've been reading your posts. I can be really myopic in my AA world. In that world, I see the vast majority of alcoholics believe that they still have power over alcohol fail to maintain much sobriety. The ones that surrender and take the steps stay sober. The internet has provided me an opportunity to interact with people that have gotten sober without needing that surrender. In that way, it's been an eye-opener for me.

On this forum, I look at what may be a practical solution for another alcoholic. Whether it has any merit, or whether or not it's even true, the 12 steps requires a suspension of the belief that one has enough willpower to overcome alcoholism. If one can suspend that belief, the 12 steps have been a well tested method of getting and staying sober.

If one can not suspend that belief, what is their option? More willpower? I can appreciate your frustration, Bugs. You can not deny the truth of your own experience which tells you that sufficient willpower will overcome alcoholism. That when you really, really want to stop drinking, when you want it more than you want to drink, you can get sober. At least I think that's what you are saying.

I've asked this before, Bugs. What is your solution for the newcomer? I'm not trying to be mean or confrontational. I consistently hear from you something along the lines of 'just don't drink.'

I'm willing to admit that I may be weaker than your average bear. I know that my willpower was incredibly weakened when it came to alcohol, even though it remained strong in other areas of my life.

McGowdog has provided a way to stomach the idea of external locus of control being found within. In that way, someone can work the Steps without having to wholly let go of the idea that they are in control.

I'm rambling. It's a tough spot, Bugs. How do you help people find what you have found? They are all over this forum, struggling with a few days or months, relapsing again, gritting their teeth and trying again, getting worse and worse, trying to apply even more willpower to the problem. What do you tell them? Just apply more willpower? Accept responsibility and man up?

I don't know. I know I have a way that works, and if someone is willing to give up that willpower idea, it will work for them as well. That's my experience that I also can't deny.

[JohnnyZ]

>> ...the 12 steps requires a suspension of the belief that one has enough willpower to overcome alcoholism. If one can suspend that belief, the 12 steps have been a well tested method of getting and staying sober.

Today is day 60 for me. It's my first serious attempt in decades to quit drinking and to stay quit forever. I'm doing it on sheer willpower alone. I am also extremely happy and content with myself, much more than I ever thought possible. Having said this, I am curious why the 12 steps cannot coexist and cooperate with one's own willpower?

(Please note that I respect AA and everyone who's involved in it.)

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

There have been some recent threads regarding alcoholism which have made me consider how important ones perception is to recovery.

No matter what I believe or think about my condition really has no effect unless I change my behavior. In my addictive past I would want to stop my alcohol addiction and I truly believed I could yet until I changed my behavior not much happened. I think I had to suspend all my beliefs in order to act. Then as my new actions, like not buying beer, this would foster new perceptions based on my action. As my actions changed in a positive direction and became more regular so did my beliefs about my self. The longer I acted in a direction that brought me closer to a heather lifestyle the easier it was to act.

The key to changing my behavior was to have an addiction treatment plan. It was better I think to just follow the plan and not have any preconceived notions about it one way or the other. My plan was as comprehensive as I could make it. So as to have an action plan for most any challenge that would pop up in my treatment. As I was having encouraging results from the actions based on my treatment, new beliefs were formed based on my actions.

My preconception-maker was distorted in addiction. It goes along with what I now know about my addiction as a brain disease/disorder. If I thought that I could beat addiction with no action, I couldn't.

"Perception is naturally surpassed toward action; better yet, it can be revealed only in and through projects of action. The world is revealed as an "always future hollow", for we are always future to ourselves."

~Jean-Paul Sartre, Being and Nothingness

[SelfSeeking]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

As I stated before I work in the medical field and when you have witnessed a disease ravage the human body you can't even begin to think deliberately pouring alcohol down ones throat compares.

I work on a unit that does detox. I think it compares.

[Mrak]

Is alcoholism a disease, a disorder or a choice? Most active drunks would consider sobriety a disease that can be cured with alcohol. But seriously, when a person is made aware that they have a physical disease they have the choice to pursue treatment. A person suffering from a psychiatric disorder may not be cognitively aware of their condition and therefore not seek treatment. Every alcoholic is different and they may suffer from one or the other, or both.

In my case, I feel that both drinking and sobriety is my choice. I liked drinking, I liked getting high - I just didn't like the consequences and aftermath that came with it. So with that reality in mind, I made the choice to live sober. I honestly would like to drink, but I understand that once alcohol is self-introduced into my bloodstream, my brain will physically function differently, causing my mind to skew reality. That's what alcohol is designed to do. I respect that truth about alcohol and that allows me to have power over it. This understanding and respect didn't occur until I had cleared my body of alcohol - which took about 30 days.

I am still haunted by my past, still paying for consequences of my drinking, still tempted to drink. But I know that drinking will not make my life better. Therefore I make the personal choice to stay sober (3 years, 11 months, 9 days, 14 hours, 32 minutes).

I believe that it doesn't really matter how sobriety is achieved, as long as it works for you and no one else is harmed along the way. It's kind of like driving to Chicago; you can take the Tri-State Tollway, Hwy 94 or the side roads. You can count on delays, rough roads and obstacles no matter which route you take, but no matter how you get there, it is still a choice.

A.A. has clearly been a life saver for many. Following a "step system" works for a lot of people. It gives them some guidelines to follow and a reference point to turn to when temptation inevitably strikes. Others are capable of relying on personal willpower. The acceptance that drinking will not make my life better has allowed me to live sober and have power over alcohol.

Helping each other we ultimately help ourselves.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

Today is day 60 for me. It's my first serious attempt in decades to quit drinking and to stay quit forever.

Congrats. Keep up the good work.

Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

I'm doing it on sheer willpower alone. I am also extremely happy and content with myself, much more than I ever thought possible.

There again... congrats. Hats off to ya.

Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

Having said this, I am curious why the 12 steps cannot coexist and cooperate with one's own willpower?

(Please note that I respect AA and everyone who's involved in it.)

Well from my experience, you just can't. It's like me going into the secular threads and asking, "Why cannot you just accept Christ into your life?" Gee, I don't think I'd try that in the 12 Subforum either.

But keep up the good work. That would just not work for me. And I'm not going to go into the whole willpower diatribe here in the non-12 step alcoholism thread. But there's plenty of it over there. Or... you can just crack an A.A. Big Book and find out for yourself. Really. It's in there.

[bugsworth]

Keith, thank you for the reply and I admire your ability to adhere to your belief system.

[chrisinaustin]

My willpower has probably a lifetime .280 batting average. Not bad for most games, but when it came to the one that would decide it all, I had to sub him out.

[Ago]

I have tried to explain my personal usage of the word "God" and the word "disease" a few times in various places in this forum, how the twelve steps can work without a christian deity for me, and how I can use words like "powerlessness", "Disease", "God", "loss of control", loss of the power of choice" and "surrender" while not abdicating personal responsibility, I will try to do so again. This Post was mildly modified by changing 3 words and adding a line to a sentence to better convey the message of love and hope it was meant to convey. I have seen you struggle with this concept with many of us, therefore have tried to explain it in depth to the best of my ability, why we use the phrases we do, and how it doesn't in fact abdicate personal responsibility when we do so.

Personally, I only use the word "disease" because it fits the definition, not because I buy the "disease model" per se, I think alcoholism is an obsession of the mind coupled with an allergy of the body, but thats unwieldy to write every time so I will write disease or illness:

"An unhealthy condition of mind or body with recognizable signs and symptoms"

I know it's "frowned upon" by AA'ers and non AA'ers alike to use the word disease, but I read the definition and go hmmmm.....that guy stinks, can't stop drinking, is completely full of sh1t, and you can tell he's lying because his lips are moving.

or

Guys drunk all the time, lies to himself and everyone else, loses jobs, argues with everyone, and has an inability to see anyone's point of view but his own, cheats on his wife etc etc ad nauseum I believe falls under recognizable signs and symptoms, I mean c'mon, guy laying in a puddle of his own urine or puke is hard to miss you know? you know the guy, the one in the drunk tank who blames the cops for harassing him, who blames his wife for leaving him, who blames his boss for getting fired, and who blames his drinking of forces outside his control, and says "conditions drove him to drink"

Or

Guy doesn't drink, is restless irritable and discontented, still lies to himself and everyone else and argues with everyone and is still unable to see anyones but of view but his own, who blames his wife for leaving him, who blames his boss for getting fired, he still suffers from the same...cough....dare I say it....disease?

He quit drinking, just hasn't addressed what made him drink in the first place.

I NEVER look at someone with all of these signs and symptoms and scratch my head and say to myself, "Gee...I wonder what THAT guys problem is, he seems to have certain recognizable signs and symptoms, but lets not call it a disease, it might OFFEND somebody", in my reality if I have a problem with something someone says it's my problem, the spiritual axiom is if I am upset, there is something wrong with me, I forget sometimes that others don't share that belief, and thus frequently offend people.

I suppose I would like some feedback as to why some members reject personal responsibility as a solution to addictive behavior. In addition I am curious as to why on a forum as large as SR and so obviously filled with a myriad of different personality types would a few vocal members want to deny the role they played in their own problem. I don't mean this to be disparaging in anyway and am sincerely hoping that I can glean some insight as to why personal responsibility is not in the forefront of individual recovery.

The only people here on SR that don't take personal responsibility for their drinking are still drinking, to imply otherwise, I feel is unfair to those people here that are sober. Especially the people you are targeting. Every single person I have ever met in my life that got sober did so by taking personal responsibility for their actions. The ones that actually did their steps not only did that but had all their self serving bullshit, denial, ego, lies, etc folded up in four corners and force fed to them with no kiss first, by the last person they ever expected it from.

Themselves, by getting rigorously honest and doing a searching and fearless moral inventory. thoroughly working the steps is the height of taking personal responsibility for themselves and their actions.

to imply that by me using the word disease implies I advocate not taking personal responsibility for my past or my present is as astonishing a leap with as little evidence as me creating a God in my own image

The post is like OFTR's example the other day, "So Andrew, you still bangin farm animals?"

It's a lose-lose statement with the implication being if we use the dread word "God" or the other dread words such as Powerless or "disease" we thus relinquish all personal responsibility for our actions when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

He said disease, powerless, God, illness, lack of willpower, loss of choice once he started drinking, etc etc therefore he thinks he gets a "get out of jail free card for ALL his behaviors"

It's just an incorrect assumption, it actually couldn't be more incorrect.

The Ego is the seat of obsession, and using the "integer" God in the steps is a mathematical formula for reducing ego, alcoholics are selfish, self centered, egotistical, delusional, conceited people, and "God" is in the steps as a mathematical value that's needed in that equation in order to reduce/remove selfishness and denial and self sufficiency, because up to that point self sufficiency hasn't worked with us, a new way of thinking has to be introduced to the alcoholics mind in order to achieve a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism, No one has EVER says it's the ONLY way, just a way that works, .and quite frankly, looking at the number of "recovered alcoholics" that have worked the steps, or even just simply gone to meetings for a few years for support to get sober, then after being sober for a few years, just gone on to badmouth AA, it not only works better then anything else out there, works better then anything else has ever worked in the history of mankind for combating this dread "behavioral problem". There's only one problem. The person has to want to stop and actually do the work. Hence the high so called "failure rate". if 9 out of 10 alcoholics don't really want to stop drinking, or do the work, that 9 out of 10 alcoholics will return to drinking and AA gets 'blamed" and the so called "failure rate" gets tossed around.

I don't need to understand electricity when I walk into a room and flip a light switch, nor do I even need to understand electricity to wire my house and hook up the lights, as a matter of fact I recently built my own house, and used solar power, marine batteries, and a generator to provide me with light. I got a book and followed instructions, and at the end of the day, although I didn't understand electricity, a power greater then myself, when it got dark I said, "Let there be light" and there was light, and it was good. I had the same experience working the steps, people I didn't like made me do things I didn't understand in order to keep me alive after they moved on. and there was light. and it was good. What good would it do me to argue with an electrician, or someone who uses propane? At the end of the day there is light, and it is good.

It's not magic or superstition in the slightest, it's a mathematical "word problem" where one of the "values" is a power greater then yourself that takes unheard amounts of personal responsibility to actually complete a fearless and thorough moral inventory, a full "confession" of your whole life, a thorough and clear look at YOUR wrongs in ways you never thought possible, you write a full list of resentments then find you played a part in every single instance, usually displaying the very same character defects you are accusing others of, then all of the sudden you are presented with a pattern, a pattern of your OWN behavior repeated over and over and over, then you do a complete and total restitution to all persons you have ever harmed. How can you think that process abdicates personal responsibility in the slightest. "recovered" alcoholics who work a good program are more "accountable" for their thoughts and actions then anyone I have ever met in my life. I almost literally find it impossible to have deep relationships with folks that have haven't done the steps as they and I have HUGELY differing ideas on the nature of taking personal responsibility for their actions, I find people who haven't done their steps frequently live in denial about taking personal responsibility because they literally haven't looked at themselves with the same level of intensity that someone who has worked the steps thoroughly has, I find in most cases not working the steps leaves people with the following character flaw, because they have never truly taken a deep look at themselves, their actions and their true motives:

Physics itself tells me The Divine must exist. My mind tells me I will never understand The Divine. My heart tells me I am not meant to. Science itself tells us mother Earth is a living organism, Gaea, and we are all of us living beings on it but cells serving different purposes, we are intertwined, all serving the whole. No plants or animals including us could live here without everything else joining together in harmonious action, what is that but the same message as carried by spirituality? When we grow crops don't we weed, plow the earth, fertilize the soil, plant the seeds, but ultimately the growth of the crop is outside our control. Seriously, what makes the seed itself "magically transform" into a plant? If you had never seen seeds grow before wouldn't you think this person was describing about magic or superstition when he described the entire process needed to grow a crop and then ended with "and then God makes the seed into a plant"? The Process of getting sober using the twelve steps is as scientific as anything I have ever encountered, it uses cognitive therapy, it uses the same tools as employed by therapists and psychiatrists, it just so happens that you need a mathematical integer of a power greater then yourself in order to get the necessary "distance" from the little voice in your mind named "me", you know the one, the one running around playing God? The one that convinces you it's a good idea to take a drink, or it's necessary to take a drink, or that you have symptoms and discomfort that it itself created that only a drink will relieve. Alcoholism is the illness that tells me I don't have it, that denial is necessary in order to quit drinking or to pave the way for a return to drinking. Alcoholism is not a disease, ergo, after a period of sobriety I can return to drinking. Anyone who has been around recovery from alcoholism has seen this occur countless times regardless of the amount of time the person has been sober. How many that return to drinking are able to moderate? Some, actually a few, but not many in my experience, and not me, I have tried twice, once after 3 years of sobriety, one after seven years. From the moment I put alcohol in my system and started the phenomenon of craving I lost the power of choice until I was 'done" and trust me I tried, oh my GOD I tried, I put every ounce of willpower I had into controlling my drinking and couldn't, and thats one of the most frightening things I have ever encountered is still having the clarity of thought from many years of sobriety but being in the grip of something as inexorable and inevitable as a Great White Shark's Jaws.

To truly understand the word Powerless my experience is pick up a drink after a few years of sobriety, when that 800 lb Gorilla body slams you into the pavement it's an eye-opener, and the stark contrast between sobriety and being powerless after that first drink viewed with a clear mind is utterly terrifying.

So when we say we let let "God do for us what we can't do for ourselves" it's as if someone wrote a manual on surgery but did so with a religious angle, we stitch the wound back together but then "God" actually does the joining of the tissues, we are responsible for stitching the wound together, but "God" is responsible for the actual joining of the tissues, I know it's white blood cells and corpuscles n stuff, but in a very real way "God" heals the wound, not the surgeon with the stitches, kind of like making a baby, we fornicate at the correct time, repeatedly, but then let God do for us what we can't do for ourselves, which is fertilize the egg and cause the miracle of life, of a new human being. You have a Son, did you "create" him out of nothingness or is he a miracle in a very real way, one you created by following "instructions" (where did those come from by the way, the desire and mechanics to reproduce in such a way it is GUARANTEED that a species will reproduce, could that be a power greater then yourself?), one borne from your body, but did the voice in your head "create" your son? Or was it a power greater then you? In order to work the steps you don't have to believe in -A- God, which would be an entity, or a deity, or an "otherness", but -God- aka "A Power Greater then YOURSELF" in order to create the new life in your wonb you didn't have to believe in "God' but truly, did you "think" your son into existence? Did you make a "choice" to just create life out of nothingness then 9 months later a perfectly formed baby boy poppped out of your womb?

The following passage contains a pretty accurate description of pretty much every practicing alcoholic I have ever met, heard of, read about etc ad nauseum, it also accurately describes those known as 'dry drunks' alcoholics who have quit drinking but not addressed the underlying causes and conditions that drove them to drink, the term "dry drunk' is a common term used to describe alcoholics who are not recovered, or, in other words, haven't worked the twelve steps, frequently because the level of personal responsibility is too hard for them, although they give a myriad of other reasons, and ironically enough, it's these very people, who either haven't worked their steps or who can't stop drinking themselves who state "the disease" model, or people who use the word 'God" in their recovery abdicate personal responsibility.

conceited/alcoholic
adj.

1. Self-deceived.
2. To be conceited/alcoholic means to believe better of oneself than the evidence would indicate. Often seen in personal ads, esp. of those who believe themselves to be attractive, youthful, or thin, against all photographic evidence to the contrary. Conceit often shows up as denial, as seen in rude people who believe they are good housemates, and in abusive people who believe themselves to be good marriage material. Also in certain talent show contestants who falsely believe that they can sing. ;^)
Often accompanied by denial that one's actions reflect badly on one's character.

conceit/denial
n.

1. Self-deceit.
2. An attitude of "Other people are judged by their actions; but I must be judged by my self-image and my intentions." (Double Standard)
3. Any attempt to deceive others by substituting self-serving alternative viewpoints.
Example: "I know I robbed that bank, but I really needed the money. And yes, I scared all of those hostages, but I'm really not like that, I'm a good person, I'm just misunderstood. I don't deserve to be in prison. Please let me go!"
Example: "No, I wasn't leading you on; I was only trying to be nice."
4. Having a tendency to exaggerate one's own acts of tokenism, as if they were the pattern of one's life.
Example: An alcoholic who once gave a box of canned goods to the poor, and now describes herself this way: "I believe in helping the needy."


Accusations of conceit are popular among alcoholics.
Example: "Do you think you're perfect?"

Related: Alcoholic Paranoia. Paranoids, specifically those suffering from delusions of grandeur and delusions of persecution, have both been described as having an inflated sense of importance, a sense of having been singled out for special treatment. These delusions seem to be far removed from the land of simple conceit, but sometimes I meet people who fit somewhere in the middle, who make me wonder if it's all the same continuum; for examples, see the excerpts below.

Conceited/alcoholic persons often behave as if their Bible reads:

The rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to you. In particular, even the structure of reality has special rules where you are concerned. And where people other than you are concerned, the rules differ. Consider the man who steals an apple from a neighbor: he has stolen, he has committed an act of theft, and so, obviously, he is a thief. In those four simple words, his action becomes a statement about who he is and what he is. But those same rules don't apply to you: If you steal an apple from a neighbor, it must be because you were hungry, and because the neighbor left his gate open, and because your neighbor never told you you couldn't have an apple. :^)

or in other words:

Because addiction by definition is an irrational, unbalanced and unhealthy behavior pattern resulting from an abnormal obsession, it simply cannot continue to exist under normal circumstances without the progressive attack upon and distortion of reality resulting from the operation of its propaganda and psychological warfare brigades. The fundamentally insane and unsupportable thinking and behavior of the addict must be justified and rationalized so that the addiction can continue and progress.

One of the chief ways the addiction protects and strengthens itself is by a psychology of personal exceptionalism which permits the addict to maintain a simultaneous double-entry bookkeeping of addictive and non-addictive realities and to reconcile the two when required by reference to the unique, special considerations that at least in his own mind- happen to apply to his particular case.

The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:

o Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;

o My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;

o Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.

Armed with this powerful tool of personal exceptionalism that is a virtual "Open Sesame" for every difficult ethical conundrum he is apt to face, the addict is free to take whatever measures are required for the preservation and progress of his addiction, while simultaneously maintaining his allegiance to the principles that would certainly apply if only his case were not a special one.

In treatment and rehabilitation centers this personal exceptionalism is commonly called "terminal uniqueness." The individual in the grip of this delusion is able to convince himself though not always others that his circumstances are such that ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs.



I once changed my answering machine message to say,

"If you're a friend or family member, press 1 now.
(pause) If you're a drug dealer, prostitute, or telemarketer, press 2 now.
(pause) I'm sorry, no one is available to take your call. Please leave a message."

One day a telemarketer called. He seemed really worked up. He left this message:

I am a telemarketer. I am not the enemy. I am not the enemy!

That's a perfect example of what "conceit" or being an untreated alcoholic means: Being blind to what you are.

These are some good examples of what the thinking process looks like in the alcoholic without recovery drinking or not, and quite frankly just removing the alcohol doesn't address those issues, hence The program, or SMART, or a therapist etc, if those patterns of thinking aren't dealt with the person is still "suffering" from alcoholism, they just aren't drinking, to me that's why it's a "disease" because removing the drinking doesn't remove the problem. All you have done is addressed the physical allergy aspect of it, not the mental obsession that tells me "I don't have this thing".

The people who state alcoholism is an illness are the very people who have recovered from it. They have addressed the issues listed in the last few excerpts in most cases, quitting drinking doesn't address the mental illness that either caused or accompanies the drinking. practicing alcoholics point in every direction but themselves when they justify their drinking, and will never admit to having a mental "illness'. Their very mental illness denies the possibility they have one, they declare they drink because they want to, by choice, or any one of a thousand reasons that make no sense whatsoever in the light of the havoc that their drinking causes, but it's never "because I am mentally ill", but when that "power of choice" begins to fail them and they are unable to quit or moderate they are a pretty baffled lot and the denial REALLY kicks into high gear to protect itself.

Afterwards it's easy to look back and say well I just made a choice and quit, not remembering how powerless you really were, that is actually the illness talking preparing "the ground" for another "assault". The Big Book has a good test to see if you have the power of choice or are an alcoholic, step over to the nearest bar, try some controlled drinking. Try it more then once. It will be worth a good case of the jitters to get a good knowledge of your condition. I always suggest to my sponsees if they aren't sure if they are an alcoholic to try drinking, no matter how long they have been sober. Once the 800 lb Gorilla b1tchslaps them to the pavement a few times they sing a different tune about things like "the power of choice" and "controlling their drinking" and all the other myriad of denial tactics that alcoholism uses in order to climb back up top of us.

I would suggest to anyone if they feel they have "the power of choice" to try some controlled drinking, if you recoil from that statement as if from a hot flame, could it be because you have lost control of your drinking? That you know if you have one your so called "power of choice" will fly out the window the moment you take that first drink and then descend back into the alcoholic abyss? Then that's not really a choice any more is it? Drinking I mean. and if drinking is not an option, or a choice, wouldn't you say you have lost the power of choice around drinking? That's all I mean when I talk about the power of choice, when I am drinking, I have no choice but to continue drinking, when I am not drinking drinking is not an option, therefore is not a choice, so I have lost "the power of choice" in drinking.

I would suggest trying a thorough working of the steps yourself in order to understand the nature of personal responsibility necessary to work the steps and then get back to me about people who don't take personal responsibility for themselves or their actions, their past, or their present, I suggest you would find a surprise or two staring you in the face in your own handwriting. It takes taking personal responsibility to new levels and by doing so you would get a greater understanding not only of yourself but of the courage and personal responsibility needed in order to complete this process. Saying that you have gone to meetings and do know about the program and working the steps at this point is as true as and identical to me saying I want to fly a plane and I have been to airports, and I have seen and flown on planes. It doesn't make me a pilot. It doesn't give me the first clue about flying a plane.

It takes more courage and personal responsibility to do a thorough working of the steps then anything else I have ever done, or ever seen, and I literally risk my life on a daily basis for a living, and have been a cliff rescue helicopter paramedic and have seen and been through things that give folks PTSD for life.

You proclaim that those who identify alcoholism as a disease and rely on a power greater then themselves to help them get sober abdicate personal responsibility, that choice is the answer, that rational thought is the answer, that you don't believe in God, you believe in Science and rational thought, yet does not science itself proclaim God more loudly at each new discovery? especially the new advances in Physics, Einsteins and Oppenheimers descriptions of how things work look suspiciously like the Tao Te Ching and other spiritual writings, have you noticed? Not a Deity or superstitious nonsense but science proclaims that that the most microscopic change in the force of gravity or the weight of an atom would render our universe a lifeless mist rather then a magnificent sea of heavenly bodies orbiting in perfection yet you fail to see God's hand in this? Is it really so much easier to believe we are a result of a gazillion to bazillion to one chance? Have we become so spiritually bankrupt that we would rather believe in a mathematical impossibility then admit to a possible existence of a power greater then ourself?

I would never ask anyone to believe what MAN writes about God, his superstitions and attempts to find TRUTH in a confusing and hostile world filled with warring factions mostly about GOD, murderering each other in the name of GOD's love, but if you lie out under the stars, when you gaze into your son's eyes, do you not feel the touch of the divine? religion, or a spiritual quest, or even a bent towards a scientific approach to thought has to do with what we were raised with and how we were raised. In the end though, aren't we all doing the same thing whether studying religion, spirituality or science? proclaiming that life has meaning, that we are grateful for the power that created us and trying to make the world a better place? Whether we study Biology, nature, religion, spirituality or even ourselves? I would never ask anyone to believe in a "God" but I defy anyone to reject "The Divine" who has ever given birth to a baby and looked into it's eyes for the first time, or watched a sunset so beautiful it made them cry, or even had rabid monkey sex for ten hours with someone they truly loved heart and soul, these are all manifestations of The Divine.

Some of us worship Jesus, some Buddha, some subatomic particles, and some of us worship power and money, and some of us worship wine, women, and song. In the end, all we are searching for is TRUTH, that which is greater then ourselves, and nowhere is this more evident then science. We search for truth, because you know, the truth will set you free. Whether or not you believe in God, when we as a species abandon our trust in a power greater then ourselves we abandon our sense of accountability. Isn't that "the problem" with kids today, is they seem to have a sense of entitlement and no sense of personal accountability? Where do you think that comes from? Could be a lack of spiritual values, where "God" was taken away but nothing of equal value is there to replace it, the necessary discipline and love of life, nature and each other? So all thats left is a buncha little grubby selfish grasping people yelling me me me more more more wandering around running over everything and everyone in their deluded self entitled greed for more "stuff", stuff to fulfill them, to complete them, when in fact there isn't enough stuff, sex, or money to fill that bottomless pit, that what they are actually seeking is fulfillment?

There are those of us that have decided that the only way to fill that "hole" is with The Divine, and to do so we have to "clean house and help others", or go back through our own lives and make restitution for wrongs done etc, and help others who have this "spiritual sickness" which is they are trying to fill THEIR hole, but instead of "stuff" they are trying to fill that void with alcohol. We teach them another way, how to fill it from the inside out, and it starts and ends with helping others and being a good human yourself. We teach people how to be "human beings" rather then "human doings" because you know to do is human, to be is divine, or is that not to be, I forget.

So why think those people that use the disease model or the word God have taken one whit less personal responsibility then yourself when actually working the twelve steps takes more personal accountability then anything else I have ever seen in my life, that it takes putting yourself under a harsher "microscope" then any psychriatrist or therapist or friend will EVER do, much less taking a look at yourself with your own mind, you know that broken thing that made you drink too much in the first place then justify that behavior to yourself, by adhering to "Divine law" I am more personally accountable then I have ever been in the past.

To imply anyone here at SR got sober without taking personal responsibility first especially those of us that have worked the steps is unfair and woefully uninformed in the extreme to me. Why knock others just because they don't follow your particular brand of "God", which you call "the freedom of choice"? Did you "choose" to be an alcoholic? Did you choose to be born a female? Do people choose to get cancer, to starve, to get diseases? or to have big boobs or small boobs, or a big butt or small butts, or diabetes, or sickle cell anemia, Can people wish those diseases away using will power? Can a Bi-polar straighten out his thinking with his thinking? by making a choice? Can I choose to be African American, or Chinese? So you made the choice to end the behavior, like the rest of us, we just do it by surrendering, which is "go to the winning side", then working the steps, you chose to do so by fighting it. You notice we were there for you to aid you in that fight, we didn't turn you away, as long as you came we welcomed you, you may have even heard we will love you until you learn to love yourself.

PS

I am an Atheist

It's quite possible you have read "The Mists of Avalon" I find myself in accord especially with The Merlin, but also to a lesser extent with Mogaine, and The Lady of the Lake, Vivaine, also Buddhism and Taoism, I believe in "The Divine" but not "The Deity". Whether you call your God Science, Progress, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, or Jah, we are all searching for truth, enlightenment, and how to make ourselves and the world a better place. As an atheist that has studied spirituality for many years I understand when someone approaches me and speaks using Christian dogma, or buddhist dogma, or scientific dogma, they are all saying the same thing, just using different vehicles for their ideas after they have worked the twelve steps, and the first thing I had to let go of was what I had condemned most in religion. I thought they were intolerant, ignorant, bigoted, and narrow minded, not open to new concepts. I found much to my dismay, they weren't the only ones. But that is a result and a realization that came from working the steps.

So although I don't believe in a Deity, I believe in the Divine, and doing so and taking some steps like recognizing alcoholism has recognizable signs and symptoms and working to correct those signs and symptoms in myself on a daily basis, I get whats known as a daily reprieve, in a very real way I am adhering to "Divine Laws" I am getting my mind, body and spirit in accordance to Divine law, you know, laws like Gravity, and sh1t rolls downhill, and "whatsoever shall ye sow, also shall ye reap", Laws written by The Divine, not some hack lawyer, with rewards and consequences as immutable and unnegotiable as as the harshest Judge, If I put love in, I get love back, period, and by adhering to "Divine law" I am more personally accountable then I have ever been in the past.

just my 23 dollars

[Mark75]

Originally Posted by Ago

It takes more courage and personal responsibility to do a thorough working of the steps then anything else I have ever done, or ever seen.....

.....when actually working the twelve steps takes more personal accountability then anything else I have ever seen in my life, that it takes putting yourself under a harsher "microscope" then any psychriatrist or therapist or friend will EVER do, much less taking a look at yourself with your own mind, you know that broken thing that made you drink too much in the first place then justify that behavior to yourself, by adhering to "Divine law" I am more personally accountable then I have ever been in the past.

emphasis mine

Thank you Ago, well said!

Mark

[bugsworth]

Wow Ago that was some post. You spent a lot of time talking of God, not that I mind but you made a judgement call regarding what my belief is. My God is not "the freedom of choice" rather my God has empowered us with that incredible attribute. I have to admit that I find it difficult to follow most of your logic especially after I read in another thread that you simply change the definition of God to suit your purpose. I am a Christian with a specific belief system and what you do with your word manipulation borders if not falls into the category of heresy. Regardless of my opinion on how you "work" your program...definition changes and all...the fact still remains that sobriety has nothing to do with God...yours or mine.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Wow Ago that was some post. You spent a lot of time talking of God, not that I mind but you made a judgement call regarding what my belief is. My God is not "the freedom of choice" rather my God has empowered us with that incredible attribute. I have to admit that I find it difficult to follow most of your logic especially after I read in another thread that you simply change the definition of God to suit your purpose. I am a Christian with a specific belief system and what you do with your word manipulation borders if not falls into the category of heresy.

Oh it's absolutely heresy, were this 100 years ago we could all go to the stoning, stone Andrew until he was unconscious, then tie him to a stake and light him on fire in an unsuccessful effort to get me to recant. I'm totally comfortable with the fact I am a heretic, not just a heretic but the worst sort of pagan and heathen, I delight in that status frankly, especially in AA where we throw around the G word all the time, the funny thing is since I do choose my own concept of a power greater then myself all of the sudden I find myself in harmonious accord with all those around me.

I don't so much change the definition of God to suit my purpose as much as follow AA's instructions when it says "Why don't you choose your own concept of God", which is why "God as you understand him" is written in the steps

Originally Posted by bugsworth

the fact still remains that sobriety has nothing to do with God...yours or mine.

YOUR fact please, not MY fact, please don't speak for me.

What DOESN'T have to do with "God"?

If "God" is, isn't it so that "God" is "everything", if so, then my sobriety has everything to do with "God", I personally don't believe "God" to be like a pinch hitter I only call in case of emergency, that would be a benevolent Deity, which I don't believe in, I wish there were another word to use, but God either IS or ISN'T, "God" is everything or God is nothing, if "God" is everything then there is nothing that doesn't have to do with "God" including my sobriety.

The word God is so limiting, it evokes so many images I am trying not to convey, anyway, I am a spiritual being having a human experience, not a human being having a spiritual experience, so actually, yes, God as I understand God has everything to with my sobriety since all MY alcoholism was was an imperfect spiritual longing in the first place. I was trying to fill a bottomless void with alcohol.

I just found a way to fill that void, heal that hurt, change the way I feel, in short, do everything I asked alcohol to do by working the steps, in which I ask "God" to fill that hole, so the "fact" of my sobriety is in fact NOTHING but "God", although I am not religious nor believe in the Christ or christian Deity.

Anyhow, the point of my post was to explain what it "looked like" from here, not convert you or start a debate, you have your views, I have mine, it's all good.

You believe in the power of choice, I believe alcoholism is an illness that one has certain signs and symptoms whether drinking or not unless the causes and conditions are addressed.

[bugsworth]

Ago your post and it's cavalier attitude regarding "throwing the God word" around is one of the reasons I chose to leave aa. I found it difficult to surround myself with people who had no real idea of what they were talking about yet would try to preach it to others. If your God is not a diety who or whom do you pray to...who or whom removes the obsession to drink...who or whom do you turn your will and your life over to? Rhetorical questions of course.

[Mark75]

Bugs...

With all due respect and no insult intended, you just don't get it... Ago is.... RIGHT.... ON.... THE.... MONEY....

Mark

[Ago]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

If your God is not a diety who or whom do you pray to...who or whom removes the obsession to drink...who or whom do you turn your will and your life over to? Rhetorical questions of course.

The Divine

Simply the Divine, which has such great beauty and I have seen the awesome power of that it has brought me to my knees with tears streaming down my face as I have felt unimaginable power flow through me feeling like a beam of light. I have literally witnessed miracles, with my own eyes, with people standing next to me saying WTH just happened, did you see that? With people walking up to me as I came from a 3 day meditation retreat asking me who I was in a voice of wonder and awe, saying "you have no ego, who are you, can you teach me this thing?"

My God doesn't need to have a "willy" to be cool and kick down with the good stuff, thanks for asking though. So no one, there is no "who", for me to say there is a "who" would imply a deity, it's not even a 'what" in that a 'what" or 'who" has connotations that puts limits, My "God" is outside limits, outside space and time while being the here and now, everything and nothing, light and dark, who is too limiting, as is what.

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Ago your post and it's cavalier attitude regarding "throwing the God word" around is one of the reasons I chose to leave aa. I found it difficult to surround myself with people who had no real idea of what they were talking about yet would try to preach it to others.

How do you know I have no idea idea what I am talking about? How do you know I haven't spent the last 20 years studying the divine, from Christianity, to Sufism, to paganism, to Druids, To Buddhism, I preach my beliefs to no one, stating repeatedly that there is more then one path up the mountain, whether it be science, Buddhism, Christianity, I just state I don't happen to believe in the Christian Deity.

Take care Bugs, I spent a lot of time writing that out in order to try to answer your questions, I don't care to be condescended to or spoken down to anymore for that effort, Be well, and Go with God, and may your path be a fulfilling one.

[bugsworth]

Ago, I am glad you found a way out of the grip of your addiction and am impressed that there are those whom look to you is awe and wonderment. I wish you all the success in the future and have no doubt there will be people whom you can help navigate the 12 steps to their liking. I stand firm in my conviction that sobriety is contingent not on God but on the never dying human spirit. If you are disturbed by most post it might be prudent to examine why it effects you so...your program has a way of navigating thru the turmoil. Your statement regarding my not knowing your background in theology may be accurate but I can only judge based on what you type.
Thank you for the time you spent on your post, the effort to convert to did not go unnoticed. Godspeed to you as well Ago. I do know that my God forgives even in times like this.

Cub...Ago is right on the money based on your belief system not mine.

[Mark75]

I stand firm in my conviction that sobriety is contingent not on God but on the never dying human spirit

God as I understand him is, in part, our never dying human spirit!

Isn't odd that we could all be talking about the same God, yet it is our definition and words that are at odds??? Just speaking hypothetically, of course...

Mark

[JohnnyZ]

Perhaps "God" is our individual inner dialogue?

[Mark75]

Partly, but for me, it is also a power greater than myself... it has to be... otherwise I'd be God...

This digression in to what is God, of course, has its' obvious pitfalls... duh... but maybe there is some value in it as pertains to the OP.

What if (Imagine, al a John Lennon...)... what if what Bugs calls her never dying human spirit is in many important ways what I call God... Then, assuming this to have some truth.... do we disagree all that much?

Mark

[Ago]

Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

Perhaps "God" is our individual inner dialogue?

This is just me, but to me "God" is everything but my individual inner dialogue, everything but the little voice that identifies itself as "I" or "me", to me that voice is my ego, which is the one thing standing between me and God, this is the part of me that "plays" God but is standing between me and enlightment, the part Boleo refers to when he makes that quote about all thinking being 100% delusional.

Einstein said "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." to me, if my alcoholism starts with an obsession of the mind, that means my thinking is "broken" and I can't use what's broken to fix what's broken.

I can have a "conscious contact" with a "power greater then myself" and ultimately "The Great truth is found within" but I find my intuitive thoughts and feelings seem to arise from a different place then my interior monologue. So my spiritual practice is designed mainly with shutting that little voice up and trying to let go of all it's grasping, it's stories, it's suffering, it's insistence on living in the past or future, on living in fear or resentment, I think we literally create our own reality on a lot of levels, I mean scientifically, not some granola deal, and we tend to view things through our lens of our experience, and the lens of my experience tells me 'stories' and makes it impossibly to truly be in the here and now, that misperception of reality is conveyed to me by my interior monologue hence in spiritual practice exercises to reduce that "noise" such as meditation, among other things.

Personally, for me, as an alcoholic, that little voice is what is trying to actively murder me and does everything possible to protect itself and try and get between me and "God", get between me and enlightenment, to me a spiritual practice such as Buddhism, working the steps, or even cognitive therapy such as say DBT are all ways to get "the monkey mind" under control. Left to it's own devices that voice in my brain will cause me harm and havoc unheard of, it's why I drank.

Please understand this is only me, I am not by any means saying this should be this way for you, or my way is "right" or even "wrong" I am just saying for me that little voice doesn't know what's good for me and has repeatedly proven that to me beyond the shadow of a doubt. This is just my experience and needn't be yours.

PS at the site I grabbed that Einstein Quote, wow some great ones, here are some that actually say what I have been trying to convey in this thread.

HeartQuotes: Albert Einstein Quotes

Albert Einstein
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.

Albert Einstein
A human being is a part of a whole, called by us 'universe', a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

Albert Einstein
A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

Albert Einstein
The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge.

Albert Einstein
That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.

Albert Einstein
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

Albert Einstein
Imagination is more important than knowledge.

Albert Einstein
Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love.

Albert Einstein
I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details.

Albert Einstein
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Albert Einstein
A person starts to live when he can live outside himself.

Albert Einstein
I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice.

Albert Einstein
God is subtle but he is not malicious.

Albert Einstein
Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.

Albert Einstein
I never think of the future. It comes soon enough.

Albert Einstein
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

Albert Einstein
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by SelfSeeking

I work on a unit that does detox. I think it compares.

Me too. I see it firsthand everyday.

Like the guy that is completely yellow from his toenails to his eyeballs. He is dying a slow, miserable death. We know that he will be released in about four days. And we also know that there isn't a damned thing we can do for him.

No one can tell me he "chooses" that.