Perception

[bugsworth]

Grateful for the opportunity to share with you cubile.

[bugsworth]

Iriss...if thread conveys anything it is that we come in all shapes and sizes...one size can't possible fit all...the key is to find your fit and wear it. Please know freedom is indeed possible and right around the corner if you want it.

[Iriss]

Thankyou bugsworth - Sometimes in Math, we have concluded the right answer, however lost marks for our method of working the sum out - If you have the answer, does it really matter how we got there....x I still need to find my theory.... I wish you well x

[bugsworth]

So true Iriss...find your theroy, it is in you...dig deep you'll see it. Peace to you as well.

[FightingIrish]

The word disease is not useful to me - I avoid using it when it comes to alcoholism. That said, I didn't choose to be an alcoholic; my body reacts differently, and it was that way from my first drink. My brothers drink more than I do - they're not alcoholics. I am responsible for my actions while drinking. The story of the woman who woke up in jail after a blackout - that was me. Did I choose to do the things I did in a blackout...I feel the correct answer is "no". Am I responsible for the repercussions of those actions? Yes. Do I make the best deal I can when it comes to setting these things right? Yes. Do I lack power when it comes to alcohol? Absolutely. Am I responsible for my own recovery? Absolutely.

[wanttolive]

This is only my humble opinion but I feel my brain reacts differently than the 'normal' drinker's does to alcohol so it is a condition but not a disease. I don't have to pick up that first drink. I was a morning to night drinker but if I didn't pick up drink number one, I wouldn't get drunk. I could stop by my choice. However, my diabetes is a disease. I can't choose it or not only control it. I can't make it stop by not picking up that first cookie.

I do believe that we are wired different and there is often heredity involved. But I respect those that believe the disease model. To each their own as long as both paths reach a sober destination who cares how we get there.

[chrisinaustin]

I don't give two figs how alcoholism is classified, really, but I do absolutely know three things:

1) I have "it".
2) I am "one".
3) I can't make it go away, or not be one, no matter what I ever do.

From there I go to work.

[Pinkcuda]

I posted this in another post but it was locked soon after.

It's not a "disease" Bugs, it's an illness. There's a difference. You'll find that Mental Hospitals are full of people that are mentally "Ill" not mentally "diseased"
By your definition, these hospitals should not exist because these people are fully capable of making their own choices.

A lot of other illnesses occur in people everyday. they include OCD, PTSD, Pedophilia, necrophelia, Kleptomaina and the lady that harbors 75 cats. These are all illnesses and can't be cured by simple reasoning. Therefore, all the shrinks in the world aren't going to talk an alcoholic into moderating.

[Rowan]

When I replied to this thread earlier, I was just finishing up a day at work. I drove home, and found a letter from my daughter sitting in the mailbox. She's reaching out, after many years, to her mother - me. I can't find the words to articulate how I am feeling right now.

[stone]

Choice and responsibility.... kinda sounds like we all just need to pull our socks up, lol.

That is the moral weakness argument, the opposite of the disease model. I think the truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between.

It does seem to be true that alcoholics livers process alcohol differently, but that doesn't explain why we don't just avoid it from the get go. Genetic predisposition may play a part too and what about nurture?

"Just say no!" doesn't exactly work does it? If it did this forum would not exist. We could just have a webpage that said "Alcohol problem? Don't drink".

[Pinkcuda]

I don't want to talk about AA but I will toss in something I plucked from another site.
The author states it's from the legal dictionary.

Insanity is a mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot manage his/her own affairs, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

We use the term "Insanity" and "Illness" and loss of "Control" in the same sentence for some reason. Chalking up one more for the "Illness over Disease" crowd.
Insanity Law & Legal Definition

[laurie6781]

You know way back when alcohol finally killed me, I found a way to stay sober. Yes, back then, '81, AA was pretty much the only game in town. Yes, I heard in meetings, and read from different studies, in the library (no internet back then) that it was a disease. Well as time went on and I learned some 'tools' that I could use to work on me and the dis-ease I felt, I managed to stay sober.

Over the years I have heard and read the 'debate' of the 'disease concept.' Here is what I figured out for me .......................... AFTER I was diagnosed as a Diabetic.

Diabetes is a disease. There are certain things I MUST do to keep it in check and slow it's progression:

Changed my eating habits and today follow a Diabetic eating plan.

Check my Blood Sugar several times a day and take Insulin accordingly.

Exercise.

Do all I can to stay stress free (stress aggrevates the blood sugar levels) and keep in a positive frame of min.

So far this is keeping my diabetes in check. (10+ years and counting.)

Now whether my alcoholism is a disease or not there are certain things I MUST do to keep it in check and slow it's progression:

Not drink.

Eat healthy.

Continue to work on me to change my attitudes and ways of handling stress, joy, sadness, disappointment, etc than I used to (tools).

Exercise

Do the next 'correct' thing in my daily living.

Work with others.

So far this is keeping my alcoholism in check (28+ years and counting.)

Disease or not, I HAVE IT. There is no 'cure' for either my diabetes or my alcoholism, ......................... however, there are things I can do to keep both arrested.

So, call it a disease, don't call it a disease, find a way that works for you. You will find sobriety to be more than you ever believed was possible!!!

J M H O

Love and hugs,

[Sikkisirus]

Great thread, thanks Bugsworth (great screen name too). I agree with you

[tricky164]

"an illness of this sort and we have come to believe it is an illness- involves those about us in a way no other human sickness can" big book p18, i wasnt drinking to escape, i was trying to overcome a craving that was beyond my mental control. doctors opinion pxxv1, "continue to speak of alcolholism as an illness, a fatal malady"big book p92. i never had a choice when i drank, if i did why did i always chose "drink" rather than not?. i am responcible for my recovery and actions now. being responcible for my drinking and using then is about "guilt, and shame. i cant live like that. lets go with dr silkworth he seems to know what hes talking about !!

[stone]

Lavash, I agree with a lot of what you say. I believe alcoholism (which is all I can talk about) could be thought of as a mental illness. You cannot imagine how many times I "chose" to stop drinking and failed, so in effect I was powerless over it. The powerless thing can be taken as a cop-out but AA certainly doesn't mean it that way. My experience lately is that after choosing again to stop and failing again I surrendered. I admitted defeat and that was when AA started to work for me, I have heard other people talk of surrender being their turning point too, people who do not use AA. So, the powerless thing is a paradox, when it leads to recovery. It is a shame when the twisted mind of the alcoholic uses it as an excuse to carry on, but it will use any excuse.
Having been through the experience of wanting to quit, choosing to quit, fighting my hardest and failing and thousand times....I can tell you if it was just a matter of choice I would have succeeded long ago. I was drinking and I really didn't want to. I believe it is a form of mental/psychological illness.

[tricky164]

I didnt sit down one day and decide to be an alcoholic and an addict thinking how can i ruin everybodys lives around me, i think i will go to prison, i know i will rob my family, i will abuse my girlfriend, and i will end up on a couch with a carving knife trying to kill myself. the truth is once i took that first one i couldnt stop, and if by some miricle i did managa to stop (because the concequences and kaos had got so bad) i couldnt stay stoped because the illness i had inside me was so painful that eventually i wanted to die being sober. thats not a choice its a necessity. only a vital spritual experience and a loving god can give me the power to overcome this illness. so was i powerless? YES, am i powerless now? NO. god bless

[gravity]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

There have been some recent threads regarding alcoholism which have made me consider how important ones perception is to recovery.

I am of the mindset that alcoholism is not a disease...my issues with alcohol fall squarely on my shoulders...I take responsibility for my past drinking including all the ramifications that ensued from my behavior. I also take full responsibility for my current and future sobriety.

This perception lends itself to much ire when shared. I am genuinely curious as to why this is. I see disease everyday both mental and physical...in no way can my behavior surrounding alcohol be compared.

I suppose I would like some feedback as to why some members reject personal responsibility as a solution to addictive behavior. In addition I am curious as to why on a forum as large as SR and so obviously filled with a myriad of different personality types would a few vocal members want to deny the role they played in their own problem. I don't mean this to be disparaging in anyway and am sincerely hoping that I can glean some insight as to why personal responsibility is not in the forefront of individual recovery.

Dawn

I don't think my perception is that different from yours.

Personally, I don't like the disease label (although I know many in AA who do). I prefer to describe it as the uncontrollable mental obsession to pick up the first drink (how else can I explain years of continued drinking despite swearing off over & over again?) and the uncontrollable physical craving once I start drinking (recently heard "Once I start, it could be a few or a few days.")

Being an alcoholic does not absolve me of my behaviour - instead, it helps explain it. I was always and will continue to be responsible for my actions. I think the steps are in line with this, in particular 4, 5, 8, 9, 10:

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

I have never heard anyone in AA use "disease" to justify their behaviour, especially if they are working the steps. I see people wracked with guilt wanting desperately to learn to forgive themselves and to try to make things right with those they hurt.

The only time I have heard people use "alcoholism" or "disease" as an excuse is when they were still drinking & even this was rare. Actually, it was more along the lines of "If you had my wife/job/life/etc. you would drink too.")

I don't agree with your statement that "personal responsibility is not in the forefront of individual recovery." I think personal responsibility is not in the forefront of active drinking/alcoholism but it is in the forefront of recovery.

In a related way, from what I see, personal responsibility is not in the forefront of many peoples' lives period (always blaming others/fate/etc. for their life situation - a real victim mentality). I see much more personal responsibility in AA.


BB quote from the first edition of the BB.

[bugsworth]

Firstly I would like to thank all those who weighed in on this conversation it is greatly appreciated.

My curiosity regarding perception surrounding alcoholism has been something that has peeked my interest since joining this site 2 years ago. It would seem to me that we have always had 2 major lines of thinking. There are those who have been very successful in sobriety by believing in the idea that alcoholism is a disease coupled with the idea of powerlessness and surrendering to an external locus of control. Then there are those too whom have been very successful in sobriety by believing in behavior change, the power to choose and an internal locus of control. While these two lines of thinking are polar opposites they both seem to net positive results. This board is evidence of that fact.

I wonder does it matter what we believe if the results are freedom and our individual ES&H holds equal weight when dialoguing with a new member. A recent thread made me realize that in order to co-exist and successfully help anyone we must find a way to navigate together with out running each other over. I have been guilty of this out of sheer frustration, which does not excuse any bad behavior on my part.
We all have a journey no two are ever the same, our perceptions are based on what we see, what we pay attention to and what life experience has taught us. We owe it to ourselves and to newcomers to share equally without concern that our individual message will be dismissed. There is no right way to get sober, no magic pill and no simple answer. There may never be a definitive answer to many of the lingering questions but sobriety is obtainable if one wants it regardless of method.

Again...thanks for all the replies.

Dawn

[jimhere]

"There is no right way to get sober..."

Let me add to that bugs. There is no wrong way to get sober either.

Not a right way nor a wrong way. I think there is a best way, and that is the way that works for you. The best way that works for me is the 12 Steps.
Jim

[bugsworth]

Thank you Jim. The bottom line is and always has been freedom...freedom from addiction and the freedom to find the path that leads us there. All any of us can do is leave some crumbs along the way if others wish to take the same road.

[tricky164]

sorry but there is lots of different ways to do this and there are lots of different recoverys 99.9% of which i wouldnt want. if you are of the hopeless variety like me, "chronic" then the 12 steps, meetings, sponcership and service is the only way (for me) when i start to think that i have a choice or that if i just change my behavior i will recover i am playing with fire. "we have discovered a common solution, we have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action" p,17 b,book.
so lets just agree thats theres not lots of different ways
and we wont kill the newcomers. god bless


Quoted Source...
Alcoholics Anonymous
1st. Edition

[Iriss]

Bugsworth - I am sure like me there are many people here who are still searching for sobriety and one persons recovery could stem from an amalgamation of different beliefs and values. Thankyou for your thoughtful approach here... x

[Bamboozle]

I see addiction as I see depression--mental illness.

I have both. Neither one can be cured but I can manage these conditions.

I manage alcohol addiction with SR and therapy. I manage depression with therapy and meds.

I can't will either one away...I like what laurie said about arresting the conditions.

I have a choice in my behavior in managing these conditions: Don't drink and let the professionals help me. Pretty simple, but do this I must. If I don't, these two things control my life. I can't take care of one without taking care of the other.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by Lavash

In AA, they convinced him what he has was a disease and he had no power over it. That his drinking was not his choice.
I was SO angered that he believe that and that they were sort of "brainwashing" him, if you will, into believing that.

Believing addiction is a disease does take the responsibility off the addict.

My heart BREAKS when I see how addictions has "stolen" my BF. I love him deeply and want him to get well and make better choices. His bad choices have made him sick.

I respect the addiction and feel for anyone who struggles.

So I revisit Bugworth's glance at perception. I would agree that in A.A. we operate on the perception that "most" alcoholics for reasons yet obscure have lost the power of choice in drink.

But that never ever takes the repsonsibility off of the alcoholic. To the contrary.

A.A. does not say go under lock and key and let the corrections facilities keep you from harming yourself and society. It does not say to go to the local church and let the preacherman save your soul. It does not "brainwash" the alcoholic to believing any stream of consiousness of any sort.

A.A. says "Here are some things we have done and we believe so strongly that if you do these things, sobriety will be the result and you will be free to do things and be places that you've never dreamed of... free from alcohol."

Look at the 12 Steps in their wall scroll short form on pp 59 and 60. Note that they are written in past tense... so as to imply they've already been tried and tested. They're not telling anybody to do anything they haven't done themselves; something that they did and something upon which they agreed upon as a way out.

Originally Posted by bugsworth

There are those who have been very successful in sobriety by believing in the idea that alcoholism is a disease coupled with the idea of powerlessness and surrendering to an external locus of control.

Now pondering my own perception here, I would agree that in A.A., we treat alcoholism as an "illness", not a disease (just a word here), that we are powerless over and we surrender to a "locus of control" if you will... but it is NOT external to us in anyway shape or form.

Please remember, our "Locus of Control" is "deep down in every man woman and child".

So A.A. puts the responsibility "On" the alcoholic and the Solution "deep down within" the alcoholic as well.

It's like your ultimate one stop shop. It's better than Wal*Mart really.

Now... there are sick meetings/groups out there where they don't work steps. At those, I don't know what they do or believe. But... "A.A. as a whole" gets brought to my attention, so I see it as my personal responsibility to try and set matters straight. Not to belittle ANYBODY'S perception. Honestly.

I'm just trying to wheel daylight into dark corners and describe an A.A. that I've been shown, done, and found effective.

[LosingmyMisery]

Example...A newcomer comes seeking help...I say...You are stronger than you think...think the drink to the end...reach out for an open hand and choose sobriety.

How? I chose sobriety hundreds of times and failed. I was at the point of desperation and wanted out, I wanted to quit and couldn't do it on my own. I would have been all ears to have someone tell me that I had the ability to stop the entire time. I didn't know how. If it is will power and a matter of choice, tell me how I choose that? It must be more than simple words leaving one's lips and entering into the air waves into my ears. It has to be more than a matter of ah hah, I hear you. Now, I get it! Tell me now I change my thinking? Tell me, show me, teach me, because I wanted to learn.

Will power, self will, what is that? Mysteriously, I can apply it in every aspect of my life, but when it comes to my drinking, I am clueless.

So, how do you teach a newcomer to chose sobriety?

Today, I know I am very strong. I have overcome many obstacles. I have experienced much pain and endured more than many will ever have to. It takes much to rise above and overcome. There is no doubt I have much strength, but did not know it in my time of need. It takes fine honing and hard work to earn strength, to uncover it, to bring it forth. Finding emotional strength is a process. How do we find our inner strength and use it?