If there was a cure for alcoholism...

[Bamboozle]

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

Bamboozle - see what I said above.

Dude...how much of my post did you read? You didn't address my very pertinent questions at all.



Are you looking for people to confirm for you that moderation is okay, or are you looking for converts to your cause?


No Kool Aid for me, thanks.

[Ago]

it is your belief. The difficulty I have with it, is that it supposes that anybody still drinking has nothing useful to say (sic-about sobriety or successful methods of quitting drinking)

That is in fact correct, if you have not demonstrated an effective way to get and stay sober in your own life, anything you say is and will be viewed as wishful and delusional thinking to me.

You are arguing with a forum full of alcoholics that have successfully addressed their drinking. A forum full of sober and recovered alcoholics.

You may find it interesting to note that for the most part, the people who agree with what you have to say are also unsuccessful at this point in controlling, moderating or stopping their drinking.

I wish you luck, and I wish to follow your progress, but shouldn't you be successful ie; sober for a period of time before you start advocating this as a successful way to quit drinking?

I don't mind hearing about the Sinclair method, and I will honestly watch this process with an open mind, but having someone who says he drinks what was it 65 drinks a week has a "cure" for drinking just makes absolutely no sense to me.

Tells us about your struggles, your progress, tell us about you, and how it's going for you, not some TSM method that so far hasn't been able to "cure" you yet.

I for one just aren't interested in hearing about "cures" from alcoholism from someone who thus far hasn't been able to quit themselves.

someone who is 'recovered' doesn't necessarily have all the answers either.

True

Not all the answers Just how to recover, and I am referring to all successful methods, not just the twelve steps, there are many paths up the mountain, and a good cross section is represented here on SR

[LosingmyMisery]

It makes me cringe when I read things like so and so was an alcoholic, but isn't anymore. It is my understanding that once and alcoholic, always an alcoholic. I'm a sober alcoholic. If I were to pick up again, I would be an active alcoholic. If I am an alcoholic taking a pill, I am still an alcoholic, but taking a pill in an attempt to control it. The cure for alcoholism is abstinence. If I were to pick up, I would pick up right where I left off and in no time by pass it astonishingly. I know this to be true from experience.

[OneForTheRoad]

Bamboozle - yes I read your post. I think it is you who didn't do the reading. The clue is in the thread title "IF there was a cure.."
As I've clearly stated the purpose here is to deepen understanding of the nature of what alcoholism is - that is the reason for 'why all the hypotheticals'. The rest of your questions then become hypothetical/rhetorical in nature.
As for your questions in your most recent post: No I'm not looking for confirmation - I'm interested in deeper understanding through discussion with fellow sufferers. And no, I'm not looking for converts. I've said both of these things several times in this thread - including in the post you quoted from.

Ago - it is your prerogative to view anything I say as delusional, just as it would be mine to hold the same opinion of anything you say. May I ask would you apply the same standard to a cancer patient, someone with OCD, someone with an eating disorder, someone with depression? I understand (and endorse) caution when processing their views, but I can't agree with blanket dismissal.
I'm also interested in what your attitude would be to AA meetings (as an example). Many people there are currently drinking, or temporarily sober. Why listen to what they have to say? If someone giving advice has a relapse, does that invalidate anything they said? Or if they were secretly drinking?

I would prefer the word debating, rather than arguing - but as you wish. You describe this as a forum of sober and recovered alcoholics - not everyone here is sober - as evidenced in the 'honesty' thread. How many of you 'sober and recovered' alcholics haven't had a relapse or can honestly say that they confidently expect to never relapse again? Maybe recovered, as opposed to recovering is a stretch in some cases.
I also thing you should read carefully - I haven't advocated TSM as a personal cure - merely said it looks the most promising route for me, and one that I am currently on. I make no claims of success as of yet. I've furthermore stated that I believe it to be part of a 'cure' at best. Where I've talked about success (for example in the locked thread on TSM - I referred to published medical literature)
When you say "I am referring to all successful methods" - can you define a successful outcome for an individual (is it abstinence only, and over what period? Does a relapse cancel prior 'success'?). Also - what constitutes success overall - 5%, 20%, 50%, 80% ?

It makes me cringe when I read things like so and so was an alcoholic, but isn't anymore. It is my understanding that once and alcoholic, always an alcoholic. I'm a sober alcoholic. If I were to pick up again, I would be an active alcoholic. If I am an alcoholic taking a pill, I am still an alcoholic, but taking a pill in an attempt to control it. The cure for alcoholism is abstinence. If I were to pick up, I would pick up right where I left off and in no time by pass it astonishingly. I know this to be true from experience.

Contradiction alert! You say the cure is abstinence, but also that once an alcoholic always an alcoholic? so are you, or are you not, cured if you're long term abstinent?
The deeper question - the one that the thread sets out to address - is why should someone once an alcoholic always be one. Could they be cured (even if we don't currently know the cure)? If not what is it that makes alcoholism uncurable? If so, then what process could we use to verify a cure?

[SelfSeeking]

OTFR:

Generally, SR members balance their, ah, 'discussion' posts with posts talking about how their own efforts towards sobriety are going, and reaching out to offer support to other struggling members.
Since your only posts here have been discussion posts it's not surprising some members think you are here evangelizing for "tsm".

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery

It makes me cringe when I read things like so and so was an alcoholic, but isn't anymore. It is my understanding that once and alcoholic, always an alcoholic. I'm a sober alcoholic. If I were to pick up again, I would be an active alcoholic. If I am an alcoholic taking a pill, I am still an alcoholic, but taking a pill in an attempt to control it. The cure for alcoholism is abstinence. If I were to pick up, I would pick up right where I left off and in no time by pass it astonishingly. I know this to be true from experience.

Yeah, I agree with this. It's my experience too. But it astounds me how some of us "hardliners" get crucified for using the term "real" alcoholic. It's a term used in the A.A. book btw. In A.A., we differentiate between the alcoholic and the hard drinker. We also look at the moderate drinker. I think if you're a hard drinker and don't want to quit, then don't. I feel sorry for you if you've been hustled into A.A. or recovery and don't want to stop. But if you do want to stop and can't, that's another ball game.

If you're a moderate drinker, I'm of the belief that alcohol can ge GOOD for you. Read the book Under the Influence and see why I come to that conclusion. I'm not allergic to seafood. So I eat seafood.

But when it comes my my own alcoholism... I like the cucumber/pickle analogy. That's me.

[OneForTheRoad]

SelfSeeking - fair comment, I can see how it would look. All I can is:

a) My approach involved TSM. My progress (which I've recorded elsewhere) would largely be on the lines of "Drank X units this week. Down/up a bit from last week. Feel a bit better/worse. Had Y days alcohol free this week." It wouldn't be especially interesting I'd have thought, and more importantly, I'd feel a bit uncomfortable regularly posting it while others are fighting hard to maintain abstinence.
b) Related to the last point, I'm reluctant to give advice to people abstaining or struggling to do so while I'm still consistently drinking (albeit at reducing levels). Not because I think I've nothing worthwhile to say, but because advice I'd honestly give (where I'd be prepared to do so) might be very out of kilter with what others here would advice, and probably with the goals of most posters here. I could go around posting messages of support, but I'd feel a bit uncomfortable for similar reasons. Suffice to say that anyone engaged in a struggle has my sympathy, and anyone who has had success in addressing their problems has my congratulations.

in general terms, for the above reasons, I'm currently more comfortable on the more 'discussion' type threads - where I do feel I can contribute and learn. If and when I do have success in my treatment protocol then I'll be happy to come back (time permitting) and advise, support etc - being mindful of course to do so in a way respectful of other approaches

[tsukiko]

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

tsukiko - thank you for your reply - sorry I missed it earlier - Nice to see the greeks getting an airing in this discussion

Do you see recovery as a life-long journey or do you think you can reach a point where you can say I am recovered? Are the two incompatible - e.g. is 'total recovery' some asymptotic position which you get closer to but never reach? In which case you can get to some point where you're 'close enough' by some definition.
You talk about (and you're not the first I've heard) the alcohol being the symptom of the problem not the cause. That would imply to me that problem isn't alcohol, and that if it is possible to solve your problems (however you define them) then moderate healthy drinking should be a choice (which you may decide to turn down of course), Or maybe you see the problem as being one that can't be solved completely - therefore requiring abstinence. If that is the case - do you see it as fundamentally unsolveable (and if so why), or just a problem with a currently unknown solution?

Big questions, you’re asking, heh.

Firstly, denying that alcoholism or drug addiction is a disease may imply to you that alcohol / drugs arn’t a problem...I assure you that alcohol and drugs were/are a problem for me...being both alcohol dependant and a junkie lol. Every disease may be a problem, but not every problem may be a disease

Anyhow, here’s my best answer to all them questions...

I think to describe any concept of ‘total recovery’ as ‘asymptomatic’ is to prove the point that it cannot exist...

Basically, any ideal is exactly that...’ an abstract or hypothetical optimum [...] existing only in the imagination’ (Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th Edition).

We strive to reach an ideal, however unobtainable we recognise it to be, addict or non-addict, that is the human condition...

We are all driven by desire. The desire for a complete recovery is little different (in essence) to the constant pursuit that drives non-addicts ...both are the pursuit for completeness, conclusion, eudemonia...whatever you want to call it.

Freud, Lacan, Wordsworth, Aristotle...the best minds were obsessed with it and the most influential and powerful books are the ones which try to offer an explanation for it ...the bible or any religious text, children’s literature, poetry...Every story and poem is about about desire. I'm yet to find a story, a poem, a play etc which isn't about the desire for an idealised sense of love or identity or whatever.

We all want that ideal.

The most succinct and eloquently expressed example I found is, maybe surprisingly, in a little chapter of The Wind in the Willows titled ‘The piper at The Gates of Dawn’. The chapter reveals the longing for god (in this case the romantic or pantheist God, Pan) and the longing for a complete recovery was / is, for me, the same thing...


That is what the Wind in The Willows is...an unobtainable breeze we glimpse or feel for a moment, but cannot ultimately possess or keep. And that is why there can never be a cure.

If I was forced to even identify something I called ‘the disease’ then I’d be forced to say ‘the human condition’...which exposes the unsuitability of the word ‘disease’ to describe whatever it is I am or have, or lack..being an addict.

For me, thus there is no disease and thus, there is no cure...just life and choices and most importantly...tomorrow.

Tomorrow is the thing which makes it possible for us to keep moving, while ironically the reality of ‘tomorrow’ prevents us from reaching the only conclusion or ‘moment’, the only completion we will ever know with any certainty: death.

Far as I see it, recovery is not a place or a commodity, something to hold or wear, something to surpass or a finishing line. Recovering, to me, is an abstract concept, such as happiness which turns up in things that we do or see or hear, depending on what we do, where we place ourselves, what we say and to whom we listen.


That’s all I know of recovery right now.

[OneForTheRoad]

very philosophical tsukiko, to the extent I'm having trouble getting my brain around all of it

am I mistaken in the following precis ?

alcoholism is part of the spectrum that we call life. Recovery is part of the same spectrum. All we can do is focus on making the right choices on the journey.

[Cubile75]

Originally Posted by tsukiko

I think to describe any concept of ‘total recovery’ as ‘asymptomatic’ is to prove the point that it cannot exist...

Wonderful post tsukiko

would you say then that no-one is asymptomatic... that we all, alkies and normies alike... strive for that perfect ideal... nirvana?

In a way, then, everyone could be recovering since "it cannot exist".

The addictive personality is the one who reaches for alcohol, or another substance, to chase after that ideal?

Your post will stick with me a while, I think....

Mark

[tsukiko]

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

very philosophical tsukiko, to the extent I'm having trouble getting my brain around all of it

To sum it up most simply:

It isn't about getting over it; it is about getting on with it.

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

am I mistaken in the following precis ?

alcoholism is part of the spectrum that we call life. Recovery is part of the same spectrum. All we can do is focus on making the right choices on the journey.

Cetainly, in my mind, alcoholism / addiction is part of the spectrum that some people call life and, yes, recovery is thus also a part of that spectrum...whether it remains as a potential or it is relaised is, of course, entirely up to thei ndividual.

In that sense, 'recovery' is an essential cog in the machine that is both mind and body. It is each individual's choice whether they flip the switch and get that cog turning. Once it begins turning though, it can only ever stop if the person either choses to switch it off (if they return to the behaviours that characterise and define active addiction) or if the machine itself (the mind and body) stop, expire...die.

[OneForTheRoad]

hmmmm

btw Mark (and tsukiko) I didn't say asymptomatic (as in lacking symptoms) I said asypmtotic (as in approaching but never quite reaching)! I think that caused a little confusion in all our posts!

It is each individual's choice whether they flip the switch and get that cog turning. Once it begins turning though, it can only ever stop if the person either choses to switch it off (if they return to the behaviours that characterise and define active addiction)

THIS I find very interesting. Active addiction is defined by the behaviour of the alcoholic. Recovery is the process of maintaining altered (to 'normal') behaviours. Have I got that right? So you don't become recovered (because you could exercise the choice to return to the alcoholic behaviour), rather you continue to be in a state of recovery by maintaining alternative (healthy/normal) behaviour?

That seems to me to be a good definition of recovery. In the sense that there is a cure, the cure is maintenance of the good behaviour.

Interestingly (if I'm not misinterpreting you) it wouldn't theoretically preclude intervention (whether surgical, psychological, pharmacological etc) to assist in the maintenance of this behaviour. Nor would it de facto require abstinence - although practically speaking that might be the obvious, easiest or most sensible course - or indeed the only realistic one.

[Lo0p]

Originally Posted by Cubile75

would you say then that no-one is asymptomatic... that we all, alkies and normies alike... strive for that perfect ideal... nirvana

--Bold mine

This is really tangential but I thought it was neat. They misread the word "asymptotic" yet somehow the meaning came through. This is a fascinating conversation

edit: I guess it would be more like "striving for that perfect ideal and getting ever closer with each step getting smaller and smaller and never reaching it"

1-4 does that word actually carry that meaning in language or are you just translating its mathematical meaning and applying it? (as I've always done)

you don't have to answer that I'm just gonna go look it up.

edit #2: We're just translating it and applying it, according to dic.com it only applies to mathematics. Funny how we both have used it before in this way.

[tsukiko]

Originally Posted by Cubile75

would you say then that no-one is asymptomatic... that we all, alkies and normies alike... strive for that perfect ideal... nirvana?

In a way, then, everyone could be recovering since "it cannot exist".

The addictive personality is the one who reaches for alcohol, or another substance, to chase after that ideal?

Your post will stick with me a while, I think....

Mark

Personally, I think, yes, everyone is searching for that ideal, but that the ideal is ultimatly the search for a unified self.

That is why we have religion, philosophy, literature, why we become parents or take drugs or buy that new car...It is all a means to an end we can never truely reach, and ironically it is the behaviours and choices we make in attempting to reach that ideal which define us as individuals, which become our identity, our 'self', and the persuit for an ideal which unifies us as a species.


As for whether we are all recovering, well, I was speaking about a specific type of recovery, recovery from alcoholism or addiction...'It' meaning: 'totally recovered form a chemical addiction which not everybody has or will experience'.


That said,no doubt we are alll recovering from different things.

[Ago]

I'm also interested in what your attitude would be to AA meetings (as an example). Many people there are currently drinking, or temporarily sober. Why listen to what they have to say? If someone giving advice has a relapse, does that invalidate anything they said? Or if they were secretly drinking?

When I was new and started sharing my vast wisdom about sobriety, my grandsponsor literally hopped up and grabbed my ear and dragged me out of the meeting mid share.

He asked me

Can you teach anybody in that room how to get drunk?

I thought for a minute, I had heard some speakers, and realized that these people KNEW how to get drunk

the answer was NO

Then he asked

Can you teach anyone in that room how to get sober, have a spiritual awakening, help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety, and lead a life that is happy joyous and free? Keeping in mind that many people in that room had from 3 to 30 years of sobriety and that I was the newbie.

I had to think for awhile, and the honest answer was no, I couldn't teach anyone how to get sober, I was learning how to do so myself.

So then he said,

"If you can't teach anyone to get drunk, and you can't teach anyone how to get sober, WHY in the HELL are you sharing at a meeting of alcoholics anonymous??????"

He then suggested I shut my pie hole.....for a year, he also suggested I couldn't learn if I already knew everything, and suggested I couldn't learn if I was running my mouth all of the time.

What I tell my sponsees is it's appropriate for them to ask questions, or ask for help, or appropriate to help newcomers at group level but suggest if they share, there is only two things shared at meetings, The problem, or the solution, are they spreading the sickness or the solution?

So, I might ask someone who was still drinking why in the HELL they were sharing their vast experience about sobriety when they couldn't in fact stay sober themselves, then I might say something like, "So why don't you sit down and shut up and listen to people who actually know how to stay sober and you might learn something"

Someone who is still drinking by their very nature CANT share the solution BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT ANY, so all they are sharing is the problem, if they had any solution THEY WOULD BE FOOKING SOBER!!!!!!

It would be akin to having to listen to somebody who had never built a house except for a series of unsuccessful attempts give me advice on what I SHOULD have done or what I SHOULD do on my 3 story 6000 square feet mansion that looks like Tara from Gone With The Wind.

I am sorry but my mansion speaks for itself as does their pathetic little structure that gets blown down every time a strong wind go through, they just dont have anything of value to tell me until they build their own successful structure.

Period, I don't care how many books they read or if monkeys fly out of their butt, build me your house, show me your successful structure, then we can talk about hardwood floors etc

I actually have said STFD and STFU to newcomers, a number of times, nothing worse then a newcomer who knows all the answers, won't shut up, but can't get sober, so it may be lucky we meet here and not at a meeting.

[tsukiko]

Ha ha you are so right Loop...and sorry, it was my fault, I was the first to misread OneForTheROad back there. Very interesting outcome, as you say though.

TO actualy return to, and answer you Q OneForTheRoad...

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

is 'total recovery' some asymptotic position which you get closer to but never reach?

I'd say -personaly- that 'total recovery' is an unobtianable ideal (for the reasons stated in my first post), so yes...it places the addict in an asymptotic position in relation to ever being 'totally recovered'.

Sorry guys! My bad. :P

[Cubile75]

well, what you said resonated with me...

I don't know, I like to think that "recovered" is a reachable goal, but that leaves me with everyone else, still striving for a unified self... but I no longer hobbled by alcohol... or the compulsion to drink it... just asymptotic

good stuff

Mark

[tsukiko]

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

THIS I find very interesting. Active addiction is defined by the behaviour of the alcoholic. Recovery is the process of maintaining altered (to 'normal') behaviours. Have I got that right? So you don't become recovered (because you could exercise the choice to return to the alcoholic behaviour), rather you continue to be in a state of recovery by maintaining alternative (healthy/normal) behaviour?

Pretty bang on the bell there, mate...that's how I see it from where I stand.

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

That seems to me to be a good definition of recovery. In the sense that there is a cure, the cure is maintenance of the good behaviour.

THe definition of 'recovery' you so succinctly summerised above can either be used to argue there is a cure or to argue that ultimatly there isn't. It boils down to semantics and which definition of the word cure you're using.

I personally choose to see it as it ain't a disease so ther ain't a cure. Each to their own, as always though.

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

Interestingly (if I'm not misinterpreting you) it wouldn't theoretically preclude intervention (whether surgical, psychological, pharmacological etc) to assist in the maintenance of this behaviour. Nor would it de facto require abstinence - although practically speaking that might be the obvious, easiest or most sensible course - or indeed the only realistic one.

No, you ain't misinterpreting at all...

I consciously thought long and hard about recovery on those scores and reading that you understand that recovery, how I see it, does not –by rights- preclude intervention or demand abstinence (though as you say,complete abstinence might be the most sensible course or even the only realistic one) is a relief because I've had trouble explainging that to so many people when discussing 'recovery', as I see it at its most basic level.

I've got to run, but brilliant topic, very stimulating and enjoyable. I'll be sure to check in later.

[Cubile75]

Originally Posted by Ago

Someone who is still drinking by their very nature CANT share the solution BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT ANY

That's right.... But, if they work the program, get sober and build that mansion, then we want to hear all about it.


Mark

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Cubile75

That's right.... But, if they work the program, get sober and build that mansion, then we want to hear all about it.


Mark

I am also interested in hearing about someone's struggles with getting started, and more then happy to help them get started, and help them all the way through the process, including helping them learn about their failures, seeing as how I have had plenty of my own, we are here to build these mansions together, what I am NOT interested in is being "lectured" to about "how to do it" by someone who is unable to build their own house.

[kurtrambis]

Originally Posted by Ago

When I was new and started sharing my vast wisdom about sobriety, my grandsponsor literally hopped up and grabbed my ear and dragged me out of the meeting mid share.

He asked me

Can you teach anybody in that room how to get drunk?

I thought for a minute, I had heard some speakers, and realized that these people KNEW how to get drunk

the answer was NO

Then he asked

Can you teach anyone in that room how to get sober, have a spiritual awakening, help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety, and lead a life that is happy joyous and free? Keeping in mind that many people in that room had from 3 to 30 years of sobriety and that I was the newbie.

I had to think for awhile, and the honest answer was no, I couldn't teach anyone how to get sober, I was learning how to do so myself.

So then he said,

"If you can't teach anyone to get drunk, and you can't teach anyone how to get sober, WHY in the HELL are you sharing at a meeting of alcoholics anonymous??????"

He then suggested I shut my pie hole.....for a year, he also suggested I couldn't learn if I already knew everything, and suggested I couldn't learn if I was running my mouth all of the time.

What I tell my sponsees is it's appropriate for them to ask questions, or ask for help, or appropriate to help newcomers at group level but suggest if they share, there is only two things shared at meetings, The problem, or the solution, are they spreading the sickness or the solution?

So, I might ask someone who was still drinking why in the HELL they were sharing their vast experience about sobriety when they couldn't in fact stay sober themselves, then I might say something like, "So why don't you sit down and shut up and listen to people who actually know how to stay sober and you might learn something"

Someone who is still drinking by their very nature CANT share the solution BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT ANY, so all they are sharing is the problem, if they had any solution THEY WOULD BE FOOKING SOBER!!!!!!

It would be akin to having to listen to somebody who had never built a house except for a series of unsuccessful attempts give me advice on what I SHOULD have done or what I SHOULD do on my 3 story 6000 square feet mansion that looks like Tara from Gone With The Wind.

I am sorry but my mansion speaks for itself as does their pathetic little structure that gets blown down every time a strong wind go through, they just dont have anything of value to tell me until they build their own successful structure.

Period, I don't care how many books they read or if monkeys fly out of their butt, build me your house, show me your successful structure, then we can talk about hardwood floors etc

I actually have said STFD and STFU to newcomers, a number of times, nothing worse then a newcomer who knows all the answers, won't shut up, but can't get sober, so it may be lucky we meet here and not at a meeting.

The problem with listening to people who share in AA meetings with long term sobriety is that often claim they wouldn't have got sober without AA. Statistical evidence shows they almost certainly given up without AA anyway.

I would rather seek expertise help from the cancer doctor or psychiatrist rather than the cancer or schizophrenic patient.

For me AA is a support group for people who have quit drinking, nothing more. If people feel it means more to them great, but if want me to believe then please back it up with statistics.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by kurtrambis

The problem with listening to people who share in AA meetings with long term sobriety is that often claim they wouldn't have got sober without AA. Statistical evidence shows they almost certainly given up without AA anyway.

I would rather seek expertise help from the cancer doctor or psychiatrist rather than the cancer or schizophrenic patient.

For me AA is a support group for people who have quit drinking, nothing more. If people feel it means more to them great, but if want me to believe then please back it up with statistics.

You go to meetings right Kurt?

why?

Because people in meetings know how to get and stay sober, and they welcome you even if all you do is vilify and put down their program that you aren't working anyway.

What do they say Kurt?

keep coming back.

and they mean it

People who get and stay sober know how to talk about that, people who measure time between relapses and call it progress know how to talk about that

So keep coming to meetings, we'll keep welcoming you and supporting you and offering you help. then you can keep coming to internet forums and talking shite about us.

One of us is sober

one of us is unable to get sober and stay that way, is bedeviled by resentments,unable to have relationships with others and blames his inability to get and stay sober on everything but himself and his unwillingness to actually put any real effort into getting sober, unable to work the steps and acting kind of like an ******* and constantly biting the hand that's helping him and "feeding" him and offering him support.

Here's a statistic, you have a 50/50 chance of being right with, who's who Kurt.

[kurtrambis]

Originally Posted by Ago

You go to meetings right Kurt?

why?

Because people in meetings know how to get and stay sober, and they welcome you even if all you do is vilify and put down their program that you aren't working anyway.

What do they say Kurt?

keep coming back.

and they mean it

People who get and stay sober know how to talk about that, people who measure time between relapses and call it progress know how to talk about that

So keep coming to meetings, we'll keep welcoming you and supporting you and offering you help. then you can keep coming to internet forums and talking shite about us.

One of us is sober

one of us is unable to get sober and stay that way, is bedeviled by resentments,unable to have relationships with others and blames his inability to get and stay sober on everything but himself and his unwillingness to actually put any real effort into getting sober, unable to work the steps and acting kind of like an ******* and constantly biting the hand that's helping him and "feeding" him and offering him support.

Here's a statistic, you have a 50/50 chance of being right with, who's who Kurt.

I think your the one full of resentments. I don't go to many meetings and make it clear my views on the BB and 12 steps to my friends in AA. I find your tone frightening you remind of a particular big book bully with a violent history. Unfortunately he started attending our meetings and everybody stopped going it nearly closed down.

Maybe you should think carefully about your tone. You make judgements about me yet you know nothing about. When you know what I am saying is correct you attack me personally.

After reading your post you have to ask who is the spiritually sick person? Certainly not me.



I have had some serious personally verbal assaults for merely posting facts.

[OneForTheRoad]

Ago - It is interesting that in your diatribe against what you perceive me to have said and done, you address the first question you quote and not the latter two. Have you ever had a relapse? Has any sponsor or speaker at an AA meeting? Have any of them ever secretly been drinking while supposedly sober?
Would that invalidate any help they had given others. Would it mean they had nothing to give?

Someone who is still drinking by their very nature CANT share the solution BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT ANY, so all they are sharing is the problem, if they had any solution THEY WOULD BE FOOKING SOBER!!!!!!

You continue to miss, deliberately or otherwise, the point I keep making. I make no claims for personal success or my solution. I acknowledge I'm in the middle of a process. This thread is about asking questions and looking for answers. However, I'll indulge you......

I am sorry but my mansion speaks for itself as does their pathetic little structure that gets blown down every time a strong wind go through, they just dont have anything of value to tell me until they build their own successful structure.

Well, lets take your building analogy a little further, shall we? Has your house or one built to this design ever fallen down? Does it stand up 100% of the time - i.e. everyone who starts building it this way using this blueprint builds it successfully to completion without collapse? You have any figures on this - or would you like me to look up some for you? (That doesn't mean I dismiss wisdom from people who take this approach by the way)
I've quoted - as have others, the results from the medical literature for the blueprint I'm following in the other thread. I'm keeping an open mind on it for the moment though, as I've said.

nothing worse then a newcomer who knows all the answers, won't shut up, but can't get sober

I never claimed once to know all the answers, or even lots of them. I've asked many more questions than suggested answers. I've given my opinion where relevant.
As for not shutting up, well - I started the thread, no-one forced you to partake. Several others have participated and commented positively.
Regarding not being able to get sober, well
1) I don't think it very dignified to throw that line at anyone here - hardly 'supportive' is it?
2) I'm in the middle of a process - not at the end
3) It isn't like I've repeatedly failed - I haven't discussed any previous attempts on this forum - for all you know this might be my first attempt to get sober

Finally, I enjoy reading your signature. Leaving aside any possible ironies here, I'd like to reference a contemporary of Euripides: Socrates - regarded as the wisest man in Greece at the time. One of his legacies to learning and scholarship was the Socratic method. You'd do well to consider that IMO.

[OneForTheRoad]

seeing as how I have had plenty of my own [failures], ...............what I am NOT interested in is being "lectured" to about "how to do it" by someone who is unable to build their own house

I haven't "lectured" anyone "how to do it". Read my posts and you'll find plenty of questions and plenty of dialogue. I want to learn as much as I can to increase my chances of success.

What maybe should give you pause for thought, apart from asking yourself whether you need to be as verbally aggressive as in some recent posts, is just how qualified you are to 'lecture' given you've acknowledged multiple failures of your own. By your logic earlier I shouldn't pay any attention to what you have to say - it would all be delusional.

However, I'm quite happy to discuss housebuilding with someone whose houses often fell down. I might learn from their mistakes.