If there was a cure for alcoholism...

[Lo0p]

Yes. Too much. Yes and Yes.

[Ago]

If you can't stop nor control your drinking why are you giving advice on alcoholism and how to stop drinking?

I fully support your endeavor to quit, and think it's admirable you are doing so, and think it's entirely appropriate for you to seek help and support, but do you think you are fully qualified to dispense advice to others about quitting drinking when you haven't done so yourself?

[Lo0p]

I wasn't dispensing advice I was sharing information.

[LosingmyMisery]

It didn't matter what I drank, beer, wine, hard liquor, I broke out. I truly believe it was the alcohol itself that I was allergic to. So...it shouldn't come to any surprise that I lean toward the allergy theory. For the record, never taken antabuse, but I do know the reaction is very violent.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Lo0p

I wasn't dispensing advice I was sharing information.

In "recovery" we share OUR Experience, Strength, and Hope

This is what I did, and this is what happened TO ME

Please keep us posted as to YOUR progress, because we care about that, in that we are brothers, I hope what you are doing works for you, please keep us updated what is going with YOU

[Lo0p]

Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery

It didn't matter what I drank, beer, wine, hard liquor, I broke out. I truly believe it was the alcohol itself that I was allergic to. So...it shouldn't come to any surprise that I lean toward the allergy theory. For the record, never taken antabuse, but I do know the reaction is very violent.

Wow. There's no other explanation than you must have an allergy to alcohol.

When I stopped taking antabuse for a few days (but not long enough) and drank that's what happened to me. Red hives all over, beet red face. It's a reaction to a build up of acetaldehyde in the bloodstream. Bit of a stretch but maybe your body can't metabolize acetaldehyde like others.

[Ago]

This is paraphrased a little bit but it's how I feel about all of this:

I make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. My program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That's our program; it's what we offer the alcoholic who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on TSM or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.
Our fellowship must be mindful of what kind of message we are carrying here at SR if a still-using alcoholic gives advice about alcoholism, How to quit, or recommends a particular path that they in fact have not achieved success with. We believe that under these circumstances we would not be carrying the message of recovery. Permissiveness in this area is not consistent with our traditions. We believe our position on this issue reinforces our recovery, protects our meetings, and supports alcoholics in striving for total abstinence.

I lifted this from an NA PDF but it describes my feelings exactly. I don't mean to be blunt, but if you can't stop or moderate your drinking, I don't "want what you have", I don't find it attractive.

I do however wish you luck and if you need support I will be here for you.

[RV9]

Originally Posted by Lo0p

Bit of a stretch but maybe your body can't metabolize acetaldehyde like others.

Apparently that's a known problem for some people - an aldehyde dehydrogenase deficiency. I just read up on it and it's particularly common among Asians, though quite rare among alcoholics (even asian alcoholics) - perhaps because if you have such unpleasant symptoms you might not drink enough to develop an addiction. Who knows.

[RV9]

Originally Posted by Ago

cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another.

I would agree if the drug substituted was itself harmful or addictive. Methadone for heroin addiction, for example. I know nothing about heroin addiction or methadone as a treatment, so can't really make a blanket statement that methadone is bad, but it sounds bad.

Drugs are just tools. If a drug is useful for a particular purpose, and its positive effects outweigh any negative ones, it's silly IMO to eschew it simply because it's "a drug".

[LosingmyMisery]

Obviously, it wasn't enough to stop me from drinking. I continued on and on...until my physical symptoms grew much more serious than redness and blotchiness.

My mother is the same way.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by RV9

Drugs are just tools. If a drug is useful for a particular purpose, and its positive effects outweigh any negative ones, it's silly IMO to eschew it simply because it's "a drug".

Like marijuana?

umm.....

This site is about FREEDOM from drugs, about sobriety, what I posted was very specific, substituting one drug for another is called "cross addiction", is that what you are advocating, substituting one drug for another? Are you sober?

[Lo0p]

Originally Posted by Ago

Like marijuana?

umm.....

This site is about FREEDOM from drugs, about sobriety, what I posted was very specific, substituting one drug for another is called "cross addiction", is that what you are advocating, substituting one drug for another? Are you sober?

I can't really speak for RV but I doubt he'll be back here, we haven't talked I'm just guessing. He rarely even graces us with his presence, he's not an alcoholic anymore and has better things to do with his time.

The moment I get addicted to a drug like penicillin this is first place I'll stop and you're the first person I'll try to find.

As for my own experience...I'm stepping on little chards of glass that feel like little pieces of my own personal hell that I made because I broke the window. But I know that I'm going to live, and I know that I will be sober soon. I'd be dead right now if I hadn't found my own way. Call me weak, I don't care, I would have jumped off of a very particular bridge if I hadn't stumbled across what I know now.

Two months ago I tried to look into my future and I saw darkness and utter despondency. Nothing.

Now...I'm thinking about going back to school! I'm thinking about meeting new friends and developing lasting relationships. Helping people, volunteering for things...It's such a contrast from nothing at all to a blank slate even though they sound like the same thing...

[Morning Glory]

If there are members here on prescribed medication, it is between them and their physician and their treatment plan. Making blanket statements about substituting one drug for another should be left with the doctors when the medication is prescribed.

I believe 3 of the medications mentioned in this thread are prescribed medications. Please stay away from medication advice and keep your opinions on that to your own personal choice.

[OneForTheRoad]

as I've stated before, my purpose in creating this thread was to deepen my (and probably others) understanding of the nature of the problem of alcoholism.

I've also stated that I see the practical question as not whether one is cured, but whether the alcoholic has resolved their problem with alcohol - through abstinence (however achieved) or otherwise. If they move from a position of sustained healthy drinking to a sustained and sustainable position where they are no longer drinking unhealthily (a spectrum from abstinence to 'normal' moderate drinking) then they have, IMHO, had success.

The theoretical question is another issue - and that is what would consitute a cure.

some people seem to be missing this point entirely - whether through accident or design.

Now, to address some specific posts:

NewBeginning - it is not about 'trying so hard to have a few drinks' - it is about discussing what would constitute cured. A 'normal' (i.e. non-alcoholic) drinker can just have one or two drinks, an alcoholic can't. I suggested therefore that a 'cure' might be measured by the ABILITY to do this. There is a world of difference between having the ability to do it, and seeing any need or having any wish to do it. I've read some pretty harrowing stories, here and elsewhere about peoples experiences with alcohol, so I can completely understand why many would have no interest in ever drinking again.

Bamboozle - see what I said above.

Ago - as I've said repeatedly, I'm not trying to change the purpose of this site. I'm not (and never would) try to convince an alcoholic it is ok to drink. I'm not pushing a particular agenda, anymore than you or anyone else here is - I'm sharing my thoughts and experiences, giving my opinions and asking questions. If you're specifically referring to the sinclair method -then I think you've misunderstood the goal - it isn't 'controlled drinking' per se (as that to me implies something like Moderation Management), - it is about 'curing' (in some limited sense - I believe it is only part of a complete 'cure') an addiction. At the conclusion of that cure, the person then has to choose a path, recognising that they have a physcial prediliction towards addiction. That can be abstinence (and probably will be for many), or it can be using medication to live a 'normal' life. Any drinking then will be no more (or less) 'controlled' than the moderate drinking of a non-alcoholic.
Regarding my own consumption, it is currently approximately 60 UK units, ~34 US units per week, down from a peak of about 100 units. That is still way too much - 3-4 times what would consitute moderate drinking, even for someone of my size (I'm 6'2" and 250lbs). My own working definition of an alcoholic is someone who over a protracted period drinks in an unhealthy manner (check) and who has experienced difficulty in cutting down or stopping (check). I'm not hiding from my problems, rather I'm actively seeking a solution for them. I've studied many methods for reducing consumption/stopping drinking and have chosen the one that appears likeliest to me to yield success. I am actively following that method now. It may not work (I hope it does obviously) and I'm not trying to convince others to try it, and certainly not to move from anything which is working for them to something which might (or might not). My reading on the broader subject makes me cautiously optimistic. I'm happy to share my opinions and seek those of others. I do not accept that because I am still drinking I have nothing worthwhile to say - as with all opinions & advice in life, it is caveat emptor.

My understanding of this site was of one which encourages and facilitates recovery from addiction, and which states four general principles:

Tolerance: I believe I have been and continue to be tolerant of those with differing beliefs to mine, including some who I feel to be plain wrong. If not I apologise to anyone concerned. I'd hope for and expect the same in return
Intellectual Freedom: I'm seeking to develop my understanding, and to do so, have posed some questions - notably in the nature of this thread.
Freedom of Speech: Discussing topics like this would seem to fall very firmly under this heading and the last one
Responsible Behavior: I believe I have been responsible in all of the posts I have made.

[keithj]

Everyone is free to try whatever means of 'recovery' they choose. They can define it however they choose. Everyone is free to share their experience in doing so.

Because I believe beyond any doubt that my life depends on successful recovery (however that's defined), I try to look at the source of the shared experience to weigh it's value.

Originally Posted by Lo0p

But I know that I'm going to live, and I know that I will be sober soon.

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

Regarding my own consumption, it is currently approximately 60 UK units, ~34 US units per week, down from a peak of about 100 units.

The main drivers for this post have managed a couple of months of decreased drinking and much discussion of how to recover from alcoholism.

Frankly, I don't have a lot of use for ideas about how to overcome alcoholism from people that haven't demonstrated any success at overcoming alcoholism.
They may be on the right road; they may have great ideas. But until those ideas are put into practice by demonstrating some success, they sound a whole lot like short-term rationalization from people that are still drinking. In other words, delusional thinking from active drinkers trying to protect their drinking.

Have I ever done that? Have I come up with and clung on to justifications for my drinking, with the belief that I'd be able to control it this time? Only to have my hopes dashed by a harsh blow of reality from alcohol. How many times did I believe, 'I'm going to be sober'?

Yes, I did that countless times when I was drinking.

I wish the posters well in their attempts. I sincerely do hope they have found the holy grail of recovery. But it's futile to discuss recovery method with people who are still drinking.

[jimhere]

Fact of the matter is that right now there are several drugs on the market that curb the physical craving for alcohol. If drinking alcohol was the problem, then that problem could be solved by not drinking alcohol.

But the real problem centers in the mind, and they haven't came up with any anti-obsession pills that I know of. You can't fix this problem with what created the problem. The only solution is what some call a spiritual experience, which is really just a new mind.

The mind I brought with me will always drink. The mind I have now can't drink. Because the problem has been removed.

[OneForTheRoad]

Originally Posted by keithj

The main drivers for this post have managed a couple of months of decreased drinking and much discussion of how to recover from alcoholism.

............ In other words, delusional thinking from active drinkers trying to protect their drinking.

..........
But it's futile to discuss recovery method with people who are still drinking.

I believe the discussion to have been useful and thought-provoking. I think it is a good thing to apply our intellect to the problem, even while in the middle of the process.

it is your belief. The difficulty I have with it, is that it supposes that anybody still drinking has nothing useful to say. I'll never agree with that as a blanket statement. I'd certainly accept (and expect) more caution, but someone who is 'recovered' doesn't necessarily have all the answers either.

Originally Posted by jimhere

Fact of the matter is that right now there are several drugs on the market that curb the physical craving for alcohol. If drinking alcohol was the problem, then that problem could be solved by not drinking alcohol.

But the real problem centers in the mind, and they haven't came up with any anti-obsession pills that I know of. You can't fix this problem with what created the problem. The only solution is what some call a spiritual experience, which is really just a new mind.

The mind I brought with me will always drink. The mind I have now can't drink. Because the problem has been removed.

I'm not sure precisely what pills you're referring to. If they're the ones I suspect then they are of pretty limited effectiveness, according to the studies I've read.
You say "the mind I have now can't drink. Because the problem has been removed". That seems like a contradiction in terms to me. Maybe you mean you have no desire to drink, or you recognise that you can't drink. But if drninking alcohol is not the problem and you've changed your mind, then why couldn't you drink? (I'm not suggesting you should, or would want to - just curious as to why you couldn't if the problem has been removed and the problem isn't drinking)

[Cubile75]

Onefortheroad

You mentioned that you don't understand what Jim said. Well, that's the point... While you are still drinking and not working a program of recovery, you will not understand the seeming paradox of what he said... It took me months of very hard work to understand.

This is illustrative of the great divide between those who are not drinking and working a program of recovery and people who drink. There is no way you can really understand or offer any insight that would be relevant. I don't say that to insult you.... It is just the way it is.

Mark

[OneForTheRoad]

No offence Mark, but that is the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying Nya, Nya, Nya

We have brains for a reason. You may well believe mine is pickled. I don't know. But if you believe it isn't a paradox/contradiction, then why can't you explain why not - or where my logic is flawed

You are effectively defining understanding or being able to offer insight as 'agreeing with me'. Hardly an intellectually consistent position (in my opinion).

Two semantic points to conclude:
a) I didn't say I didn't understand - I said I saw an apparent contradiction, and asked for elaboration/clarification
b) I don't agree I am not in a program of recovery. You may doubt the potential efficacy, but if I am successful (which may lead to abstinence btw) then I think I'd be 'recovered' by any definition you care to apply - although I suspect were it to happen, some would just decide I wasn't a 'real alcoholic'

[Cubile75]

The whole problem with this issue is that it's not about intellect I am pretty well educated and it wasn't until I forgot most of what I thought I knew did I begin to "see".

Mark

[tsukiko]

My two cents...

I don't hink there is a cure for alcoholism or drug addiction because I don't think it is a desease.

I don't see recovery like reaching any conclusive moment. It was the dissapointment, anger and lonliness looking for some sort of 'moment' which caused me to turn to drugs and drink...so if it was a desease, I had it before I discovered addiction.

Drugs were a symptom of whatever I've got festering in me, not the begining...or the end.

Think of Aristotle's idea of a eudamon life; it cant be judged until the life has expired, ended. There is no point during life which a person can reach and say 'I'm there: I'm cured' or 'I've reached eudamonia'...because while there is a tomorrow there is possibility...for everyone and everything, good and bad.

Life is the expermient, death is the conclusion. And even death isn't a cure for addiction because it doesn't remove the desease without removing the life.

Just my thoughts.

[kurtrambis]

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

as I've stated before, my purpose in creating this thread was to deepen my (and probably others) understanding of the nature of the problem of alcoholism.

I've also stated that I see the practical question as not whether one is cured, but whether the alcoholic has resolved their problem with alcohol - through abstinence (however achieved) or otherwise. If they move from a position of sustained healthy drinking to a sustained and sustainable position where they are no longer drinking unhealthily (a spectrum from abstinence to 'normal' moderate drinking) then they have, IMHO, had success.

The theoretical question is another issue - and that is what would consitute a cure.

some people seem to be missing this point entirely - whether through accident or design.

Now, to address some specific posts:

NewBeginning - it is not about 'trying so hard to have a few drinks' - it is about discussing what would constitute cured. A 'normal' (i.e. non-alcoholic) drinker can just have one or two drinks, an alcoholic can't. I suggested therefore that a 'cure' might be measured by the ABILITY to do this. There is a world of difference between having the ability to do it, and seeing any need or having any wish to do it. I've read some pretty harrowing stories, here and elsewhere about peoples experiences with alcohol, so I can completely understand why many would have no interest in ever drinking again.

Bamboozle - see what I said above.

Ago - as I've said repeatedly, I'm not trying to change the purpose of this site. I'm not (and never would) try to convince an alcoholic it is ok to drink. I'm not pushing a particular agenda, anymore than you or anyone else here is - I'm sharing my thoughts and experiences, giving my opinions and asking questions. If you're specifically referring to the sinclair method -then I think you've misunderstood the goal - it isn't 'controlled drinking' per se (as that to me implies something like Moderation Management), - it is about 'curing' (in some limited sense - I believe it is only part of a complete 'cure') an addiction. At the conclusion of that cure, the person then has to choose a path, recognising that they have a physcial prediliction towards addiction. That can be abstinence (and probably will be for many), or it can be using medication to live a 'normal' life. Any drinking then will be no more (or less) 'controlled' than the moderate drinking of a non-alcoholic.
Regarding my own consumption, it is currently approximately 60 UK units, ~34 US units per week, down from a peak of about 100 units. That is still way too much - 3-4 times what would consitute moderate drinking, even for someone of my size (I'm 6'2" and 250lbs). My own working definition of an alcoholic is someone who over a protracted period drinks in an unhealthy manner (check) and who has experienced difficulty in cutting down or stopping (check). I'm not hiding from my problems, rather I'm actively seeking a solution for them. I've studied many methods for reducing consumption/stopping drinking and have chosen the one that appears likeliest to me to yield success. I am actively following that method now. It may not work (I hope it does obviously) and I'm not trying to convince others to try it, and certainly not to move from anything which is working for them to something which might (or might not). My reading on the broader subject makes me cautiously optimistic. I'm happy to share my opinions and seek those of others. I do not accept that because I am still drinking I have nothing worthwhile to say - as with all opinions & advice in life, it is caveat emptor.

My understanding of this site was of one which encourages and facilitates recovery from addiction, and which states four general principles:

Tolerance: I believe I have been and continue to be tolerant of those with differing beliefs to mine, including some who I feel to be plain wrong. If not I apologise to anyone concerned. I'd hope for and expect the same in return
Intellectual Freedom: I'm seeking to develop my understanding, and to do so, have posed some questions - notably in the nature of this thread.
Freedom of Speech: Discussing topics like this would seem to fall very firmly under this heading and the last one
Responsible Behavior: I believe I have been responsible in all of the posts I have made.

Very will put onefortheroad I have so much understanding for what you say. You clearly have a rational grip of your problem. I hope it continues to reduce your drinking.

Obviously you have to consider how your drinking affects you and people around you and why drink so much. I'm sure you aware of the risks to health drinking at this level is aswell, cancers etc. With this in mind ultimately the decision is up to you as to what level of drinking you find acceptable. Its a free society.

I hope you continue to monitor your progress and rethink your plan if things don't work.

Personally with the progress you are making at this stage and the level of your drinking I don't think life long abstinence would be a good option as this stage

Why you may ask? Well I used to drink at the same level 60 units. I then went straight to an abstinence approach, the result of which turned me into a binge drinker drinking 300+ units at a time that needed hospitalization. Which IMO is more dangerous. Infact this is well documented criticism of abstinence only approach to alcohol problems. Although this might not be the same for you we are all different.

Luckily my periods of abstinence are much longer (1 slip this year). If you continue to make progress IMO the method you are doing is much safer.

Please continue to let us know are you going on. This might not apply to you but for me I have felt leaving drinking and pubs behind as left a void so I
Got a hobby nature photography
Getting fit playing badminton and football
deal with underlying issues

My life is better and healthier

[Cubile75]

Very, very well said tsukiko... There is no cure because there is no disease. Yep, I get that!!!!

Mark

[OneForTheRoad]

thank you kurt

I am actively planning on many things to 'fill the void' - some of which I used to do and sort of let slip over the years, some of which are new. Some I've already started. Like I said before, I don't think a pill will cure all ills - I need to tackle the problem at many levels - including asking some hard questions about why I drink and what I really want out of life etc.
And yes, if this doesn't work, then I'll be 'moving down my list' and trying other methods.

[OneForTheRoad]

tsukiko - thank you for your reply - sorry I missed it earlier - Nice to see the greeks getting an airing in this discussion

Do you see recovery as a life-long journey or do you think you can reach a point where you can say I am recovered? Are the two incompatible - e.g. is 'total recovery' some asymptotic position which you get closer to but never reach? In which case you can get to some point where you're 'close enough' by some definition.
You talk about (and you're not the first I've heard) the alcohol being the symptom of the problem not the cause. That would imply to me that problem isn't alcohol, and that if it is possible to solve your problems (however you define them) then moderate healthy drinking should be a choice (which you may decide to turn down of course), Or maybe you see the problem as being one that can't be solved completely - therefore requiring abstinence. If that is the case - do you see it as fundamentally unsolveable (and if so why), or just a problem with a currently unknown solution?