If there was a cure for alcoholism...

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by OneForTheRoad

... if you can change your behaviour to not drink/smoke at all, then why can't you just change your behaviour to smoke/drink a set amount? I don't understand why not, if the issue is purely behavioural.

When I gave up nicotine, I simply choose not to smoke "one day at a
time" and it became easier for me each day. When I tried to give up
alcohol by choosing not to drink "one day at a time", it became harder
for me each day. My problem was not just alcohol. For me "not
drinking" did not treat my alcoholism. I was uncomfortable in my own
skin before I took my first drink as a teenager and I returned to
being uncomfortable in my own skin after I took my last drink.
Alcohol was my solution for 30+ years and did not become my problem
until my final years of drinking when it failed to give me comfort
before it made me blackout.

It was not until I recognized and addressed my "real problem" that
sobriety became comfortable. My real problem was in the form of the
"Four Horse-man of the Apocalypse " (Terror, frustration, bewilderment
and despair). Until I found a way of chasing them away, sobriety was
not worth having.

[Gr8Life]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I don't know my friend...if we could only ask the millions and millions of dead smokers why they couldn't just cut down to one or two we might just have an answer.

What it is about alcoholism that you believe is not behavioral?

Interesting debate. Of course drinking is behavioral. . .but for an alcoholic it is behavior driven by addiction. An addict has lost his/her ability to choose whether to drink or not. They are as hooked on alcohol as a heroin addict is on heroin.

Yes, calling diligently on a "higher power" may help many alkies to resist that nearly irresistible urge to "pick up." But in my personal experience, and in spite of having a deeply spiritual focus and background. . .no amount of calling on God helped me to overcome the urge to drink to excess. I fought that beast daily, using every weapon at my disposal (including will power, which I had in abundance), but the beast won every time.

What did help? A little pill called naltrexone - and I believe, personally, that it was God who led me to this little-known cure.

You've no doubt heard about the man stranded on a life-boat who begged God for deliverance. . .several vehicles came by, but none of them looked like what he thought God's deliverance would look like. . .and so, he died.

I'll take whatever means of deliverance from this beast that God sends, and be eternally grateful.

[bugsworth]

An addict in active addiction may have lost their choice from a physical stand point but after detox an addict is once again free to choose. Personal responsibility for our own actions seem to be in short supply.

Gr8Life I am glad that naltrexone has given you the relief that you sought.

[LosingmyMisery]

My truth may not be the truth for one and for all. I think it is important that we establish that beliefs and opinions do not equate the truth to be accepted by all. Truth may be subjective. It is variable, in my opinion. I think it is important that we allow one another to have our own truths, at least when it comes to recovery.

The truth is defined as the quality of being in accord with fact or reality. How can we accept the definition when we cannot agree on what alcoholism really is? Is it an illness, a malady, a disease, lacking in spirituality, reckless behavior, an allergy, lack of will power? No matter how we complicate it or simplify it, it still exists and it is deadly.

How would I recognize my cure? I recognized it by not drinking. I do not miss it and do not wish to integrate alcohol back into my life, cured or not. It nearly destroyed me. Why would I want to reintroduce poison back into my system? Drinking literally hijacked my soul, the empty bottle encased my entire being and I lived in darkness, void of any joy or active living.

For myself, alcoholism destroyed my spiritual being and my recovery was an introduction back into feeling and understanding emotions again. I believe we all are spiritual. All life is spiritual in a sense. If you are suffering from something that robs you of reason, self worth and feelings, you are suffering spiritually. I am not a religious person, but do believe in spirituality.

All living things have an aura. I do not wish to debate what spirituality is, but I hope you get my drift. Anyone who has deeply suffered from alcoholism will understand the void of which I speak. I was ill, very ill, mind, body and soul.

It all boils down to healthy choices and common sense. As you are aware, something extremely rare in an active alcoholic. I am capable of making healthy choices today, but in the midst of my drinking, forget about it. Reason and rational thoughts were twisted into what I believed to be my truth. My entire existence was all about me and getting the next drink. Alcohol was killing me, but my skewed mind believed I needed it to survive.

No rationale thinking there and will power could never come into play in the state I was in. It took much more than that. I understand my state isn't the same for all, but that was my experience. I am open to combining medical cures to traditional ones. The hardest thing I ever had to do was to detox off of alcohol and to get past that obsessive craving. If there is a pill that will help do that, great. The key to recovery is getting off of the booze and getting to the point of making the right choices. How we do that is up to the individual.

Just because one does not understand it, has not experienced or lived it, does not mean it does not exist or is someone else's reality. Believing so, is closing off ideals and new opportunities to thyself.

[OneForTheRoad]

Bugsworth - I believe alcoholism is multi-faceted - there is a behavioural component for sure, but there is also a physical addiction - which you now seem to acknowledge also.

Self-seeking - I acknowledge the efforts you may have made at moderation and failed, and I applaud you finding your current happiness in sobriety. The question I posed was what would constitute a 'cure' (assuming we can allow that word to refer to the multi-faceted problem that is alcohol). Someone who is not an alcoholic could drink a small quantity of alcohol without a problem. Something with (active) alcoholism cannot it would appear. A cure for me therefore would be the ability (which doesn't force you to act on it by the way - you have a choice not to drink if you wish) to drink as the non-alcoholic does.

Boleo - your post above is virtually identical to several you have made on this and similar threads - what is the point? You now have sobriety and have 'chased away' your problems. Could you drink now (if you wished - I realise you probably don't) without encountering problems? If not, then I don't think you're cured. You have however found a workable solution to your problem and have my admiration.

Gr8life - thank for that interesting persepective. I may not share all your beliefs but that is an insightful post IMO.

LosingMyMisery - I agree that we need to be tolerant of everyone finding their own solution to their problems. I would however make the same points to you as I made above

[LosingmyMisery]

What points?

[OneForTheRoad]

that a cure would the ability to drink without causing the effects you describe. You might choose not to drink, but if truly cured, would know that you didn't fear these consequences if you did - anymore than you'd worry about them if you ate an apple or drank a glass of milk.

[bugsworth]

is it my understanding that you believe a "cure" like this exists?

[OneForTheRoad]

I don't know what your understanding is LOL

I believe the Sinclair method MAY be (part of) such a cure. I'm willing to try it too.

[LosingmyMisery]

I see. Well, I quit pondering the ability to drink a while ago. Reality tells me, the only cure for me is abstinence. That is the way it is for me and at this point, nothing will change that. Staying sober is my world. I think finding acceptance is key. I learned to accept that to drink is to live in utter and constant misery. It really made no sense, so I chose to lose the drink. Not the end of the world, it beats the alternative.

For myself, there was no doubt that I would die if I continued to drink. I was in the late stages of alcoholism. I drank 24/7 and was not living life and was unable to function. I drank slept, drank slept and bought more booze. It really made a mess of my life, but I have gotten past that, thankfully.

I guess I would compare this question to what came first, the chicken or the egg? Did we derive from apes or did we emerge from Eden? These make for great debates, but will we ever really know the answer? We all choose our separate beliefs.

I can honestly say today is the first time in a long time I revisited the idea of the ability to drink normally if there was a cure. I will play along. Would it be nice to sit with others and have a glass of wine, or two, possibly? Do I believe that will ever happen, no? I do not so I am leery to even venture the idea. I do not believe that is ever possible so I move on and live life quite happily without it. I don't need booze to survive.

History tells me that I can't drink normally. I have tried to re-write history for to many wasted years. It is like putting my hand to the hot flame. I have been burned to many times, so I shy away from the pain of the burn. Fairy tales are nice to read or get swept away in for the time being, but reality is where we learn to survive. I like to stick to the tried and true. I have to much to lose by jumping into things without knowing the direct outcome. However, thanks for the discussion. I don't know what tomorrow will bring as far as a cure goes, but for today, I will have to stick with what has worked thus far, abstinence.

[LosingmyMisery]

Not me. I've been down that road. I think we need to deal with life on life's terms. Taking a pill so I can drink normally, no thanks. Like I mentioned, I can survive without alcohol. Through recovery, I have discovered much more than sobriety. When it come to taking pills, I'll stick with my blood pressure pills.

[NewBeginning010]

Why try so hard to have a few drinks? I don't get it... I guess that's because I am a recovering alcoholic.

I cant fathom wanting to drink one or two drinks/units or "normally" or do I want to. When I drank it was to get drunk & to escape, a couple of beers & then stop... (and take a pill before) no thanks!

Talking about being recovered/cured as being able to drink a certain amount of alcohol while taking a pill beforehand. Great to hear that some people are drinking less but we should not start to fool ourselves into thinking that this is recovery.

The day that you are living a healthy, happy life & no longer need to escape by ingesting mind altering substances = recovery/cure.

Take Care,

NB

[LosingmyMisery]

Good time to remind myself that drinking was only a symptom of my condition. I drank to escape for many reasons. There within is the root of my dysfunctional behavior. My recovery helped me to deal with these issues. Taking a pill to drink or not drink, does not.

[NewBeginning010]

Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery

Good time to remind myself that drinking was only a symptom of my condition. I drank to escape for many reasons. There within is the root of my dysfunctional behavior. My recovery helped me to deal with these issues. Taking a pill to drink or not drink, does not.

Thanks LM, not only you though... everyone on the SoberRecovery website

[Bamboozle]

If...dog...rabbit.


What's with all the hypotheticals?


What's this mystical cure? In what form does it come? In a pill? Surgery?


Does this cure affect the rewards center of the brain? Does this cure only affect excessive alcohol consumption? Where the foo is that in the brain? In a spot? In a series of connections? Can it be cut out or fried? Is the drive to drink too embedded for that?

Will this cure affect other such pleasures? Will it incapacitate a person’s sexual drive? What are the side effects?

Ugh.

I'd love to be able to fly like Superman.

I'd love to win the lottery.

I'd love to have women falling all over themselves to get to me.


Sounds pretty good...but...

[RV9]

Originally Posted by jamdls

I don't buy into alcoholism being a disease either, it's an addiction or an allergy. With many allergies there are medications you can take to alleviate the symptons and apparently there are medications you can take to make alcohol less desirable to you as well. I've often looked at my drinking problem the same as if I had a peanut allergy or shellfish allergy, I wouldn't eat peanuts or shellfish if I was allergic and I don't drink alcohol because I have an allergy to it.

I disagree that alcoholism isn't a disease - and it doesn't resemble an allergy at all.

Alcoholics have an altered brain structure and chemistry - there are physical changes in the brain that are brought about by the stimulus+reward involved in alcohol consumption. In effect, the brain is rewired.

AFAIK, the "allergy" nonsense was started by Bill Wilson, who was hardly qualified to make such an assertion. Alcoholism isn't remotely like an allergy.

I suppose some people use the term "allergy" to mean "an atypical reaction" and I suppose on that level it's true. But the atypical reaction to alcohol(can't just have one) is caused by the wiring of the reward center in the alcoholic's brain. The alcoholic is essentially addicted to endorphins.

[LosingmyMisery]

I don't know, when I drank I broke out in hives. It started on my face and chest and the more I drank, the more it spread to my arms and legs. When I didn't drink, it wasn't a problem. When I drank, it started within minutes of the first sip. Seemed like an allergic reaction to me. I guess we all react different and believe differently. What ever you want to believe or call it, I can't drink no matter what.

[RV9]

Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery

I don't know, when I drank I broke out in hives. It started on my face and chest and the more I drank, the more it spread to my arms and legs. When I didn't drink, it wasn't a problem. When I drank, it started within minutes of the first sip. Seemed like an allergic reaction to me. I guess we all react different and believe differently. What ever you want to believe or call it, I can't drink no matter what.

THAT is an allergic reaction. Probably not to the ethanol, though that is certainly possible.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

At this point, even if I could drink, it's just an unnecessary expense, I don't need

[Lo0p]

Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery

I don't know, when I drank I broke out in hives. It started on my face and chest and the more I drank, the more it spread to my arms and legs. When I didn't drink, it wasn't a problem. When I drank, it started within minutes of the first sip. Seemed like an allergic reaction to me. I guess we all react different and believe differently. What ever you want to believe or call it, I can't drink no matter what.

That sounds like an allergy. Or the beginning of an alcohol challenge reaction brought on by coadministering alcohol and antabuse.

I've never heard of anyone having a reaction like that to alcohol. That's bizarre.

[Dee74]

Welcome to SR RV9.

I hope you'll check out other threads and forums and share a little about yourself - we really are about support here - not debate for it's own sake

D

[Greener]

Unless LosingmyMisery was drinking straight vodka I suspect she is allergic to something in her drink of choice.

RG

[Ago]

Hi

I used to be a cucumber

Now I'm a pickle

However, my life revolves around trying to convince myself and others I am still a cucumber so i can keep on getting "pickled"

I would state that for someone not drinking, or desperately trying to prove they can drink "moderately", both to themselves and others, I would state that drinking is not the "behavioral" problem because even if they are not drinking they are trying to control and enjoy their drinking 24/7

The behavior is the obsession, not the drinking, and then once you start drinking comes the loss of control.

When did this site become about trying to control your drinking? Is this Moderation Management R us . com now? When did it become OK to try to convince alcoholics it's OK to drink moderately and here's how on this site? When did it become OK to push a particular agenda, especially when abstinence isn't the goal, controlled drinking is?

Onefortheroad how much do you drink a week?

Please be honest

[Lo0p]

My goal is abstinence.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Lo0p

My goal is abstinence.

Do you drink now?

If so, how much? How many "units" a week? Do you EVER lose control of your drinking, as in plan to have X number of units but have XYZ instead?