If there was a cure for alcoholism...

[bugsworth]

I'm curious what we are looking to "cure". Irresponsible reckless behavior?

I drank because I liked it...I liked it so much I knowingly pushed ever boundary I could possibly push to satisfy my desire to enjoy myself. Eventually alcohol became center stage in my life....I drove the car that got me there. My irresponsible reckless behavior brought me to my knees. I have had enough alcohol for two life times...there is no pill or no prayer that "cures" irresponsible reckless behavior that we have to do for ourselves.

[Greener]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I'm curious what we are looking to "cure". Irresponsible reckless behavior?

I drank because I liked it...I liked it so much I knowingly pushed ever boundary I could possibly push to satisfy my desire to enjoy myself. Eventually alcohol became center stage in my life....I drove the car that got me there. My irresponsible reckless behavior brought me to my knees. I have had enough alcohol for two life times...there is no pill or no prayer that "cures" irresponsible reckless behavior that we have to do for ourselves.

I think thats how we start. We like that feeling the alcohol gives us. eventually we find ourselves addicted. We cant stop even if we want to. I came to hate the malt liquor I was hooked on. I couldnt stop because I was addicted. Now that my doctor helped me break the addiction I dont drink any more. I also had the added incentative of not drinking because it messes with my blood pressure drugs.

I agree with you that irresponsable behavior starts us down that road. But the addiction we develop needs to be broken before we can stop. I dont thing the average person can do it through will power alone.

RG

[bugsworth]

I'm going to have to disagree with you Greener. I drank for 15 years...at any point in that 15 years I could have stopped if I wanted to...bottom line was I didn't want to. The allure of the buzz was way stronger than my desire to become sober. The physical addiction is thankfully very short lived, once I was past that it became the mental obsession with alcohol that needed to be confronted. Will power is an incredible powerful part of human nature that needs to be cultivated....like any muscle it needs to be used to get stronger. Most people say that will power won't work cause they don't use it...once you use it however it becomes the driving force that keeps you on track when the urge attacks. Even animals can be taught to use will power....my dog for example has been taught to sit...lay down and crawl all using her will power. I'm sure she would just love to snatch the bone I use as motivation but she uses her will power to wait until I give the go...she understands the reward that comes from denying her need to grab the reward from my hand. I as a human being understand the reward that comes from not drinking...I am not saying it is easy or it comes to us quickly but will power is huge in recovery...to deny it is to deny our freedom of choice.

[Greener]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

I'm going to have to disagree with you Greener. I drank for 15 years...at any point in that 15 years I could have stopped if I wanted to...bottom line was I didn't want to. The allure of the buzz was way stronger than my desire to become sober. The physical addiction is thankfully very short lived, once I was past that it became the mental obsession with alcohol that needed to be confronted. Will power is an incredible powerful part of human nature that needs to be cultivated....like any muscle it needs to be used to get stronger. Most people say that will power won't work cause they don't use it...once you use it however it becomes the driving force that keeps you on track when the urge attacks. Even animals can be taught to use will power....my dog for example has been taught to sit...lay down and crawl all using her will power. I'm sure she would just love to snatch the bone I use as motivation but she uses her will power to wait until I give the go...she understands the reward that comes from denying her need to grab the reward from my hand. I as a human being understand the reward that comes from not drinking...I am not saying it is easy or it comes to us quickly but will power is huge in recovery...to deny it is to deny our freedom of choice.

Maybe we were affected in different ways. I really do think I tried very hard yet was unable to quit for any long period of time. Maybe a person can be taught will power. I dont know how one would go about doing it. I went to therapy for 2 years and that accomplished nothing.

Also I think humans are more like cats than dogs. My opinion of course. A dog can be trained just as you stated in your post. A cat can be trained not to do certain things when you are in the room. However when youre gone they do whatever they want much like a person would.

You did bring up a new thought in my head. I wonder if the Naltrexone I took gave me the will power to stop just because I was convince the doctor had given me a drug that would work. Maybe I cured myself because I believed the drug worked. I had not thought this before.

Thanks for getting me something to think about.

RG

[NoMoBeer]

This seems to be a really ambiguous topic.

So, first things that come to mind. There are diseases out there that don't have a cure, but can put the disease into remission or suspend the damage they do. I think my alcoholism is the same way.

I have 2 kids with lifelong diseases (so far, no cure). Both are Type 1 Diabetics, and my little girl also has Celiac Disease (food allergy to Gluten). Both diseases are deadly if left UNTREATED (sound familiar?). Trust me, Insulin is not a cure, but it is life support -- my children would be dead without it. With the Celiac, my daughter eats a Gluten Free diet, and shows no manifestation of the disease (shameless public service announcement for this horrible disease: statistic is 1 in 133 people HAVE Celiac disease, but only 10% are diagnosed. Next time you get blood work, ask your doc to add that test. PLEASE).

SO, I do believe that alcoholism is a disease. (My belief here) -- it is a disease that affects body, mind and spirit. It is a progressive disease. I have a mind that tells me (when I am not spiritually fit) that it's OK to drink, and that drinking will make me feel better. There's my real problem. Once my mind tells me "OK, Ken... go ahead and have one..." and I have that one, then BOOM -- I get it into my physical body. Then the physical piece of the disease kicks in and I develop an actual craving -- a physical need to have alcohol coming into my body. If I can keep the alcohol out of my body, I'm OK. But I have to find a way to stay mentally sober enough to do that. For me, I must first straighten out SPIRITUALLY and ask a power greater than me for help. Once I straighten out spiritually, the mental and physical sobriety falls in line. It ain't easy, it ain't a "cure," but it helps me live my life sober.

That's just my humble opinion....

Great thread...

NMB.

[bugsworth]

Greener, I have used this analogy before...if someone had a gun to your head and they explained that the only way the gun would go off is if you drank would you be able to summon the will power to not drink? Drinking to me is like putting a gun to my own head...I think ones perspective regarding their situation plays a huge role in recovery. You may be on to something regarding the placebo effect...that is up to you to decide.

[OneForTheRoad]

Ultimately no-one is going to stop any behaviour unless (a) they want to (whether through fear of the consequences or otherwise), or (b) they are physically prevented from doing it.

We can debate all day about what is will-power and how we improve/strengthen it. If someone makes repeated attempts to stop and eventually does - is that because they've improved their will-power or because of another reason (e.g. counselling, support etc). Does it really matter?

bugsworth raises an interesting point - what are we looking to cure? If we refer to wanting to drink at all then we probably have a cure already - anyone who successfully abstains through whatever method has found a cure. So we have lots of potential cures, all of varying, but typically limited (i.e. they don't work near 100% of the time) effectiveness. However, while this is certainly a solution, I'm not sure it is a cure - as to me it seems to define the problem/disease/condition as drinking. In which case anyone who drinks has it. Maybe some people believe that, but I doubt most do. The problem (we can probably agree) is dysfunctional drinking. So.....

To return to the original question - how would be recognise a cure. Lets use an analogy. If someone had a shop-lifting problem, a solution would certainly be persuading them that they should never enter a shop. If they stick to that (relying on other people to make their purchases, or internet shopping for example) then they have resolved the problem - but have they cured it? I'd content they haven't. A cure would be where they could be in the same environment (i.e. the shop) and have no desire to steal.

Another analogy might be closer (if seeming a little trivial). Chocolate is something that most humans enjoy. It produces pleasant sensations in the brain when eaten (I beleive). It is not essential or even important in terms of physical or mental health or wellbeing. Most people will occasionally eat some chocolate. Some people will eat it excessively. Excessive consumption can lead to obesity, diabetes etc. Say we take someone with such a problem and propose two 'cures'

a) We teach the person about good eating habits and nutrition. We give them a healthy diet plan and convince them never to eat chocolate again. They can live happily and healthily ever after. They structure their life to avoid chocolate where they can, and take one day at a time - not wanting ever to eat chocolate because of the possibility of a 'relapse' to their previous condition

b) We teach the person about good eating habits and nutrition. We give them a healthy diet plan and show them that while chocolate isn't necessarily part of that, occasional and moderate consumption need not invalidate their healthy regime. The person may or may not decide to never eat chocolate again.

Now IF (b) was achievable then it would be more of a 'cure' (to my mind at least) than (a), although both are solutions to the problem. If someone is happy with (a) that is fine, but both are valid approaches - it is a question of which works best for the person.

[bugsworth]

A behavior problem is not a disease therefore there is no "cure". If drinking alcohol is destroying your life then stop drinking it...no matter the method.

[Greener]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Greener, I have used this analogy before...if someone had a gun to your head and they explained that the only way the gun would go off is if you drank would you be able to summon the will power to not drink?

I could hold my breath until I passed out if I had a gun to my head. However I cant do it when there isnt a real gun to my head. Good analogy but it may be stretching it a bit.

RG

[OneForTheRoad]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

A behavior problem is not a disease therefore there is no "cure". If drinking alcohol is destroying your life then stop drinking it...no matter the method.

Ok, so you believe it isn't a disease, but is a behaviour. Why not just change the behaviour then? Just drink at a moderate level like the majority of those who do drink. If you can effect a permanent change to the behaviour in this regard I would regard that as being 'cured'.
Also, and sorry if I'm labouring the point a bit. Drinking alcohol, per se, is not what is destroying the alcoholics life - it is drinking alchohol excessively/in a harmful manner that does that. IF the alcoholic (or problem drinker if you are one of those who defines an alcoholic as someone who can't do this) successfully and sustainably modifies their consumption pattern to a healthy level then they have also resolved the problem - or become 'cured' (if you'll permit the extension of the word to a behavioural framework)

[bugsworth]

I don't think it is a stretch...it lends itself to perspective. Drinking to me is like holding a loaded gun to my head...I never know when it will go off.

[bugsworth]

One for the road...I did change the behavior, I don't drink. Problem solved.

[McGowdog]

Contemplating the gun analogy is a waste of valuable time when combating alcoholism. Look into your own practical experience with this stuff. If it was me, I'd fox the idiot holding the gun to where he was drunk, I had the gun, and the rest of the booze.

Here's a recovery method I use; Alcoholics Anonymous. Let's see what it says about will power/choice in drink, shall we (in all of its squiggly writing glory)?

"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink." BB page 24

So let's see how this gun scenerio would shake out;

"How many times people have said to us; "I can take it or leave it alone. Why can't he? "Why don't you drink like a gentleman or quit?" "That fellow can't handle his liquor." "Why don't you try beer and wine?" "Lay off the hard stuff." "His will power must be weak." "He could stop if he wanted to... say if he had someone with a gun to his head."

We can add to the list again and again.

But go back to the paragraph above with the bolded words "most" and "at certain times". Sure, you could lock the alky up and/or hold a gun to his head. But forever? Why not just do the deal and get free? Most alcoholics imply that maybe a few don't understand this and can just choose to not drink. And they are very vocal. They want to think they have a solution for you too. They are coming from a different reference point. Well, are you the few... or the most?

[OneForTheRoad]

bugsworth - congratulations, and yes I agree you have solved your problem. My question was that if you believe it was a behavioural problem, do you believe you could (if you wished) change the behaviour to drink moderately. If not why not?

[bugsworth]

The gun analogy may be a waste of valuable time for you McGowdog, but it lends itself to anyone who wishes to seek the truth. The truth is no one is powerless unless they think they are...you are clearly one of those people. As I have stated before the bb is an opinion...one which you agree with...it works for you. Others however do not so if anything is a waste of time you quoting it over and over is.

[OneForTheRoad]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

The truth is no one is powerless unless they think they are...

Is Step 1 of the 12 steps not admitting that you are powerless over alcohol?

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

The gun analogy may be a waste of valuable time for you McGowdog, but it lends itself to anyone who wishes to seek the truth.

So let's talk about truth. What's your experience with having someone hold a gun to your head to keep you from the first drink? I have no experience in it myself. Nor would I want to. God forbid I should crack that A.A. book and see what "opinions" it has in store. The experience of 100 sober drunks is anything BUT opinion.

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Others however do not so if anything is a waste of time you quoting it over and over is.

Oh really? How many times have I quoted the Book in this here thread? Over and over is an embellishment.

P.S.: I'm not going to engage in an argument with someone that uses a different recovery method than me here. I'll be nice and head back over to the 12 step subforum, but when I see fit, I like to see where the A.A. program fits as well. Contemplating a "cure" does go a way to make some alcoholics understand that some of us have lost the power in choice and lost "our legs" so to speak and we are different than those who can choose and/or moderate their drinking. It's a very important identification that's used in the 1st Step.

P.S.S to Bugs: I know what the subforum is. It's still about alcoholism. I don't need to worry about the attacks of the validity of the first 100. I know that it works for me and 100 is merely a number used at the time. In any case, hundereds gave way to thousands, which gave way to millions. In any case, it's not a numbers game. The group I belong to is not a popularity contest. It's a very specialized and focussed group. It's for only alcoholics and alcoholics that are willing to do steps on a regular basis. The book itself is and never was sacred. It's merely a set of instructions. We don't worship the fingers that point to God.

[bugsworth]

No congratulations necessary One after all I am just behaving in a way that is fitting for a responsible adult. I think a lot of people over look that point...not drinking till we pass out...black out or take somebody out is the right thing to do. My behavior all these years was hideous....what I put my family through...inexecusable. What I did to my body, my mind and my spirit will take years to repair. When I got sober I put my big girl pants on...I sat in the pain...I walked thru the misery and came out with the ability to choose to do the right thing. Why on Gods green earth would I decide to ever drink again? Moderately or otherwise. When we finally get our heads out of our a$$e$ we should keep it that way...don't you think?

[bugsworth]

I'm not going to engage with you McGow other than to say your experience is yours and you should feel free to share it. Crack your bb anytime you want but once again we are in the alcoholism forum...the bb is not sacred text over here. For what it is worth you might want to check out the information about the first 100 in the bb. It has been embellished.

[OneForTheRoad]

sigh.........

can I make my question much clearer? You keep talking around it. So lets put it (and some others) once again:

1) Do you think anyone who drinks (any quantity of) alcohol has their 'head up their a$$'?
2) I recognise that you have no wish to drink again. Fine. I'm asking you to engage in a hypothetical question here. Given that you believe it is a behavioural problem, do you believe you could (if you wished) change the behaviour to drink moderately. If not why not?

[bugsworth]

1) No
2) No...for the same reason I can't just smoke 2 cigarettes a day.

[OneForTheRoad]

thanks for those answers bugworth....some follow-ons if I may.......

You said you believe that alcoholism is a behavioural problem, and you have said above that you couldn't drink moderately, for the same reasons that you can't smoke just 2 cigarettes a day, implying you see that as a behavioural problem also. Which brings me back to an earlier question - if you can change your behaviour to not drink/smoke at all, then why can't you just change your behaviour to smoke/drink a set amount? I don't understand why not, if the issue is purely behavioural.

Edit: for those who dont have a problem, and therefore do manage to drink in moderation, what is different about them and you/us? Is it purely behaviour?

[bugsworth]

The path you have chosen is yours McGow, the most glaring difference I see is that we are "curing" different things. You view alcoholism as a spiritual malady with the "cure" coming from God. I view my alcoholism as a learned behavior with the "cure" being self reliance. Never the less freedom does come for those who choose to address the issue how ever they see fit.

[bugsworth]

I don't know my friend...if we could only ask the millions and millions of dead smokers why they couldn't just cut down to one or two we might just have an answer.

What it is about alcoholism that you believe is not behavioral?

[SelfSeeking]

This discussion is like arguing about nature vs. nurture and human behavior. IT'S BOTH. Addiction is both psychological AND physical. It is flat out impossible to separate the two. onefortheroad: Before settling on abstinence, the vast majority of us tried 'moderation'/drinking 'like normal people' in just about every way imaginable, and it ended in disaster. Alcohol is not necessary for life. Whatever slightly lowered mortality exists for 'moderate' drinkers vs. teetotalers vs. heavy drinkers, too many times we shoot for moderate and land in heavy. That lowered mortality rate does not apply to us. We die... in car accidents, in liver failure, in esophageal cancer. We have babies with fetal alcohol syndrome. We hurt our families and lose our jobs and get gout. We commit suicide.
So yeah.... I think I'll sharpen my social skills rather than risk these things to mingle easier at parties. And perhaps I'll keep my weight under control and eat salmon in order to lower my risk of heart attack and stroke.