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The majority of alcoholics recover from alcohlism without AA



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The majority of alcoholics recover from alcohlism without AA

Old 03-01-2009, 01:32 PM
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I do sympathize with anyone who hasn’t found a group to call his/her own…my main place of support is SR….and oftentimes you can find me hanging out in the Secular section. Anyone who is interested: come over and check it out. Open invite.


I can only imagine how I would feel if I were in AA and I kept seeing threads like this one. There’s been a lot of these lately…

Some of my friends here are in AA…and it works for them...and while I cannot speak for them, my guess is that they probably don't like the back and forth that's been going on here.

No one has to do any kind of program they don’t want to…and no one here should have their method criticized. I say this at the risk of being labeled a hypocrite…I’ve commented on these “discussions” a number of times. Again, a good alternative would be to visit the Secular section….positive action can be a pretty good thing.

Also, the ignore button can be a very good thing. Peace to all the people on SR.
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Old 03-01-2009, 01:47 PM
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Most of my family and family friends have recovered without going to AA. I'm being treated with a non-AA program and I am currently achieving a 100% success rate.

Originally Posted by dgillz View Post
I disagree with the title of the post. I believe the majority of alcoholics NEVER recover.
I tend to believe it is true that many that attempt to recover relapse and wont return to recovery. I see it with some of my friends. They try AA and stop going for a variety of reasons. Often they die an early death.
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Old 03-01-2009, 01:51 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Kurt I think the sources you cited are a bit misleading. No one ever said that most recover through AA alone. I'm fairly certain that if we looked at both AA and places of worship, they hold the majority of those who have recovered.

You stated most who had problems with alcohol or drugs recovered on their own. That I don't disagree with at all. The Big Book of AA even stays that the hard drinker/problem drinker can stop on consequences alone. They do not necessarily need a spiritual approach to stopping. The Big Book makes clear of all of this. AA and the program of AA is focused on helping the alcoholic. The Big Book clarifies and differentiates between the different types of drinkers.

Last edited by ian_g; 03-01-2009 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Adding in more
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Old 03-01-2009, 01:59 PM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bamboozle View Post
I do sympathize with anyone who hasn’t found a group to call his/her own…my main place of support is SR….and oftentimes you can find me hanging out in the Secular section. Anyone who is interested: come over and check it out. Open invite.


I can only imagine how I would feel if I were in AA and I kept seeing threads like this one. There’s been a lot of these lately…

Some of my friends here are in AA…and it works for them...and while I cannot speak for them, my guess is that they probably don't like the back and forth that's been going on here.

No one has to do any kind of program they don’t want to…and no one here should have their method criticized. I say this at the risk of being labeled a hypocrite…I’ve commented on these “discussions” a number of times. Again, a good alternative would be to visit the Secular section….positive action can be a pretty good thing.

Also, the ignore button can be a very good thing. Peace to all the people on SR.
But on this thread I haven't attacked AAs effectiveness or people who do the program. I am only attacking people who say AA is the only way.

I take anti-depressants they help ease my depression and in doing so help keep me sober. I don't get offended by people who say anti-depressants don't work for them or mention the fact that it might be working because of a placebo affect. Infact I did once read that given to wrong person they can actually increase drinking.

Unfortunately there a people stuck in AA who think its only way, I was one and it cause in me to relapsing. There's currently a thread going on where a person is expressing such views. Statistical evidence says people who choose their own treatment do better then people who are coerced and I think people implying AA is the only way is a form of coercing. MATCH project if I remember rightly.

I say to people give AA a try do the 90 meetings in 90 days or there abouts but if it doesn't feel right don't listen to anybody who says AA is the only way. If your miserable in AA, then misery going to make you prone to relapse.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:04 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis View Post
But on this thread I haven't attacked AAs effectiveness or people who do the program. I am only attacking people who say AA is the only way....Statistical evidence says people who choose their own treatment do better then people who are coerced and I think people implying AA is the only way is a form of coercing. MATCH project if I remember rightly.
Rarely do I see people in AA here say that their way is the only way. Again, I'm sorry that you have some grievances with that particular program. Why not take a more positive approach? Kurtrambis, come on over to the Secular section.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:05 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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But on this thread I haven't attacked AAs effectiveness or people who do the program. I am only attacking people who say AA is the only way.
What is your motivation for attacking anything?
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:05 PM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Kurt glad that anti depressants are helping you and in turn keeping you sober. I think regardless of whether they are prescribed short term (6 months) or longer term they are an incredibly powerful help to people struggling with depression and/or anxiety who may be using alcohol to self medicate those problems.

I only ask this out of interest but did anyone at AA hint that you did not need medication and following AA would be the answer for you?
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:06 PM
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I would love to see how they define an alcoholic in these studies also haha. They use the DSM-IV lol or the twenty questions? Personally, this approaches of categorizing only are able to truly define thoses who have a physical addiction (alcohol dependency). A great example is lets say someone is on Oxycontin for a pain. Well lets say they acquired a tolerance. When they try to come off of it the have withdrawal symptoms. Yes, they may be phsyically addicted but how about mentally? How many have come off of it and simply put the painkillers aside to never pick it up again? Yes they felt the withdrawals like any addict would but once out of their system they don't feel the same mentally cravings over it that would lead them to start the cycle all over again. The alcoholic deals with both the bodily and mental aspects of this illness. Like I've said before I knew people who were running around with me doing the same things but given a sufficient reason they could stop. Me on the other hand, I wasn't able to.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:06 PM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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We don't have cookies or anything like that...but you may be able to find some folks with whom you can relate.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:10 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Good suggestion Bam
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:12 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ian_g View Post
Kurt I think the sources you cited are a bit misleading.
How?

Originally Posted by ian_g View Post
I'm fairly certain that if we looked at both AA and places of worship, they hold the majority of those who have recovered.
Do you have any evidence to back up this theory. Personally I have never met anybody outside AA who uses church to recover. Infact, I don't even know anybody who goes to church! (maybe at a stretch I do)
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:14 PM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bamboozle View Post
I do sympathize with anyone who hasn’t found a group to call his/her own…my main place of support is SR….and oftentimes you can find me hanging out in the Secular section. Anyone who is interested: come over and check it out. Open invite.


I can only imagine how I would feel if I were in AA and I kept seeing threads like this one. There’s been a lot of these lately…

Some of my friends here are in AA…and it works for them...and while I cannot speak for them, my guess is that they probably don't like the back and forth that's been going on here.

No one has to do any kind of program they don’t want to…and no one here should have their method criticized. I say this at the risk of being labeled a hypocrite…I’ve commented on these “discussions” a number of times. Again, a good alternative would be to visit the Secular section….positive action can be a pretty good thing.

Also, the ignore button can be a very good thing. Peace to all the people on SR.
:ghug3

Thanks Bam.
This is from the rest of that interview w/ George Vaillant from the Grapevine... There was some selective cutting and pasting in the OP and I think some of what was cut and NOT pasted is very good for us all to keep in mind.

"But it doesn't hurt at the level of GSO for AA to have humility and understand that 60 percent do it without AA. It's also true that most of those 60 percent do it with the AA toolbox: their spirituality doesn't come from AA; their support group doesn't come from AA; and what I call "substitute dependency" doesn't come from AA. But they still use the same ingredients that AA uses.

And I don't think there's anything that the other 60 percent are doing that AA needs to learn from, except: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If you meet someone who has stayed sober for more than three years and they're pleased and boasting that they did it without AA, thank your Higher Power for another recovery. You know, there's "little" sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. So if someone is doing something without your help, good enough."

I hope at least some people bother to follow those links and read the data with a critical eye. Some of that "research" is pretty fluffy- not published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal; very small and homogenous sample sizes; or dated; or confuses AA recovery with the success of rehab or intensive outpatient (IOP) therapy. I am of the opinion that an organization like AA is one of those things that is going to be hard to nail down with success rates for all the reasons that have been discussed on so many other threads.

I just know I'm happier sober with AA than I was abstaining without it. And so are my friends and family, when they interact with me That's enough for me.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinkcuda View Post
What is your motivation for attacking anything?
I wonder this too... we have a motto in AA...
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis View Post
How?



Do you have any evidence to back up this theory. Personally I have never met anybody outside AA who uses church to recover. Infact, I don't even know anybody who goes to church! (maybe at a stretch I do)
You realize you just demanded evidence then followed it with anecdotal "proof"? An amazingly high percentage of Americans (and I assume you are living in America, based on your location) attend church, so I suggest you take a look at your biases... and btw I'm a Happy Heathen.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kurtrambis View Post
How?



Do you have any evidence to back up this theory. Personally I have never met anybody outside AA who uses church to recover. Infact, I don't even know anybody who goes to church! (maybe at a stretch I do)
I just said how it is misleading, it doesn't even specify how else these individuals are recovering and in addition there is no specification on how they determined who is an alcoholic.

I have met TONS of people who recovered through church. You haven't even met anyone who goes to church so of course you wouldn't have met anyone who has recovered using it! Common sense and Process of Elimination would make that clear.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:19 PM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ian_g View Post
Kurt I think the sources you cited are a bit misleading. No one ever said that most recover through AA alone. I'm fairly certain that if we looked at both AA and places of worship, they hold the majority of those who have recovered.
Not a huge difference between the two... and I if there is any truth in that statement, it is simply because the majority of society is involved in one religion or another.

You stated most who had problems with alcohol or drugs recovered on their own. That I don't disagree with at all. The Big Book of AA even stays that the hard drinker/problem drinker can stop on consequences alone. They do not necessarily need a spiritual approach to stopping. The Big Book makes clear of all of this. AA and the program of AA is focused on helping the alcoholic. The Big Book clarifies and differentiates between the different types of drinkers.
The Big Book basically defines an alcoholic as someone who needs AA and the intervention of a deity to stay sober, and writes everyone else off as either not being a genuine alcoholic or being doomed to relapse. It's no wonder that so many people feel that AA is a religious movement...
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SelfSeeking View Post
You realize you just demanded evidence then followed it with anecdotal "proof"? An amazingly high percentage of Americans (and I assume you are living in America, based on your location) attend church, so I suggest you take a look at your biases... and btw I'm a Happy Heathen.
I was thinking the same exac thing haha.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:26 PM
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It's evened up DK is back!

Ladies and gentleman in the red corner we have DK and Kurt, in the blue corner we have the challengers Ian_g and Self seeking....let's get ready to rumble!!!! Ding ding....
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
Not a huge difference between the two... and I if there is any truth in that statement, it is simply because the majority of society is involved in one religion or another.
Where are you drawing your information from? Also, how do these studies even conduct such research. AA is anonymous after all and has continually denied being involved in the how public scrutiny of things.


Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
The Big Book basically defines an alcoholic as someone who needs AA and the intervention of a deity to stay sober, and writes everyone else off as either not being a genuine alcoholic or being doomed to relapse. It's no wonder that so many people feel that AA is a religious movement...
No the Big Book defines the alcoholic as an individual who can not stop on self-knowledge alone. What it boils down to is this: The alcoholic has a mind that can't stop thinking about it and a body that can't live without it. The alcoholic can't stay stopped because when they stop, they no longer have a solution to life's problems. The solution used to be alcohol and now with no solution they are forced to pick it back up again.
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Old 03-01-2009, 02:28 PM
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AA is the only way? I haven't heard that stated in a very long time.

Many claim to have their own way of recovery that is working. I say terrific? But I must ask, what constitutes success in recovery? Is it 30 days, 60 days, 90 days of total abstinence?

I think if you have several years of sobriety then it may be safe to say that your way is working. I think many who have a few months under their belt think that they have recovered. I say that the path ahead gets tricky and hopefully you are prepared to handle it. There is no such thing as recovered. Our recovery is contingent on how diligent we work our program.

Many have started in AA and have left the program. That is not to say that we failed and are back drinking again, or worse yet, dead.

People certainly like to generalize and form their own conclusions. I can only speak for myself. I'm sober today and say to each their own. The coast may be clear today, but gray skies may be forming tomorrow. Be prepared for those cloudy days. They are the ones that will get the best of you.

These threads really only create discord and agitation. They are seldom useful. Seen them to many times and I don't understand why people who have successful recovery just don't share their own experience and how it worked for them? Why dwell on the negative and negate another program? IMO, it is a total waste of time and is tiresome.
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