Is alcoholism a disease?

[kurtrambis]

Originally Posted by paulmh

It would really help me in this thread if people could give some idea of how long they've been sober. I think that's the great arbiter of whether something works or not. I know this sounds like an invitation to pull sober rank, but I think it's dead important when we're discussing something like this that we get an idea of not just what people's beliefs are but how well those beliefs serve them.

I spent most of my drinking career arguinbg that alcoholsim wasn't a disease and that ppowerlessness was a load of bunk, and my drinking got worse.

Five years and eight months ago I accepted that I was powerless over alcohol - that I had a disease, for want of a better word - and I took responsibility for the unmanageable mess that my life had become. I haven't had a drink since. I've had the craving removed - or certainly it's gone.

There are newcomers reading this thread. They may be swayed by the opinions here. So let's just put it out there - disease model has served me well for more than five years. How about you?

This is a classic AA argument used to try to invalidate newcomers views and enforce Big Book ideology.
IMO there are generally 2 types of people who obsess over alcohol, those trying to look for a solution and people in AA (who the majority support the disease theory). Therefore this is reflected in respondents to this thread

I have found people who recover from alcoholism who don't go to AA (which is the majority of alcoholics) generally don't make alcohology there hobby they forgot about alcohol and just accept they can't drink. Whereas a people in AA tend to obsssess over it and quite few (minority but dominant guru types) in AA think reading the big book and long term sobriety makes them an expert on alcoholism. Which means supporting the disease theory of alcoholism.

I do understand where you are coming from with your acceptance paul but I think peoples replies on this thread are very balanced, nobody has given the impression that they don't have a disease therefore they can drink normally.

I'm in the camp of thinking its not a disease anymore than smoking is but I am well aware that I am powerless over alcohol once I pick up that first drink.

I will say calling it a disease has its benefits and drawbacks as people have mentioned.

[yeahgr8]

Sobriety date - 15th Oct 2008
Method - counselling twice a week, one to one and group
AA - Will be going to AA in order to learn how to live sober. I am doing ok but it is like learning a new way of living. I will also be going because it will be a great way to meet like minded people. I have read the big book and working the steps seems to me that it will make me a happier and more content person in sobriety. I don't care if it is flawed, right or wrong, outdated etc. I have met long term people who are able to stay sober and happy for the rest of their lives. I have never met a sober person with a good amount of time behind them that was a true alcoholic using alternative programs. I have met a lot of people who use alternatives and keep relapsing. I'm just basing my decision on my life experiences, people I have met and common sense.

[bugsworth]

For me it is very simple...I can't drink alcohol without the consequences being dire. That does not mean I have a disease...especially one I am powerless over. I think putting those two words together...disease and powerless spells disaster...I have seen the damage it does first hand and it is deadly.

yeaghr...I would venture to say that you actually have met true alcoholics with a "good amount of time" behind them that have used alternative programs or the old fashioned DIY program. Many are here at SR. Maybe you just haven't realized it.

[navysteve]

I have found people who recover from alcoholism who don't go to AA (which is the majority of alcoholics) .

Just curious ( and I am not trying to stir anything up) Where do you get these facts???? I am always saying that AA is not the only game in town but I would like to know where the majority recover and how their population is quantified????

alcohology is the scientific theorized, or study of the hydroxyl compound Alcohol, in partial, or as a whole.

I don't believe we do that at all.

Whereas a people in AA tend to obsssess over it

Not if they work the steps. My Big Book tells me I will:

seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We
react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any
thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had
been places in a position of neutrality—safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.
We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.

That is what My Big Book says will happen before I am even done the steps. I don't obsess, I can go to bars, parties. Part of my job in the Navy as a First Year Chief is to stock the Chief's Barroom once a month. Booze is no problem in my life that I obsess over.

reading the big book and long term sobriety makes them an expert on alcoholism.

We simply have a way that works for us.

Don't confuse the Gurus with the recovered. There are more of us than there are them. We even sit in the back row at the meetings.

[Bamboozle]

Anyone can call it anything they like...I don't believe in the disease model.

Just from reading countless thousands of posts at SR, I realize that addiction and the circumstances behind it/around it are extremely varied...this condition manifests in different ways in everyone. That is why there isn't a “one size fits all” method to recovery.

I’m not an expert, but I do understand that brains are fairly complex and that the medical community doesn’t even come close to understanding the finer points.

In regards to recovery, some common themes:

Some folks quit/relapse and after enough time passes, they move on with their lives sober.

Others quit/relapse…struggle, and find that they need face to face support….they get that and move on with their lives sober.

There are those who quit/relapse…they may obtain sobriety or not…and realize that there’s more to it than the drinking. Some of these folks can beat this on their own once they work through their problems…many find they can’t do it alone and receive professional help to become/remain sober.

[paulmh]

This is a classic AA argument used to try to invalidate newcomers views and enforce Big Book ideology

Steady on friend, it's not a "classic AA argument" - it's just what people do in life to try and work out how qualified people are - part of what I do involves writing business plans. I like meeting people who successfully write business plans, and I like to read about different ways of doing business planning. I happen to think it makes me better at my job. But if someone starts telling me some things which seem outlandish about planning, I'd like to have some idea of what qualifies them to make those statements. You might want to stop trying to paint AA as something sinister when it isn't. "Enforcing Big Book Ideology"? Calm down!

And honest, I don't think about booze. I go to wet places when the need arises and it doesn't bother me. I only really think about my alcoholism when I do my morning meditation and when I pop in to SR or other websites - which is infrequently. I remember vividly what it's like to suffer in drink, and all I'm doing when I come here is telling people how I recovered from that. I'm not a religiouos man but it's nothing short of a miracle that someone like me, who certainly DID obsess about booze, can now have such a relaxed attitude towards the substance. All I have to do is make sure none gets in my system. Why? Becuae I've got a disease!

[bugsworth]

The debate that alcoholism is a disease will rage on for eons I suspect...each one of us entitled to our own beliefs on the matter. It is my opinion that if alcoholism was truly a medical disease science would be much further along in finding a cure. Behaviors are not diseases...some like smoking and drinking may lead to true diseases but they are not diseases by themselves.

Fortunately for me and my sobriety I don't debate the issue with myself...I like paulmh am armed with the knowledge that I can't allow any alcohol into my system...pretty simple really...I do what it takes to get the job done...been working for me coming on 2 years.

[gerryP]

I am in agreement 100% with kurtrambis on all accounts.

I believe that there are as many ways to find long term sobriety as there are people in this world. it's purely a matter of finding what works for you individually. that can be a program of some sort, a support group, therapy, but at the end of the day it is up to you. No one is going to keep anyone sober.

Yeagr8. there are thousands and thousands of people worldwide who stop abusing alcohol on their own, in fact i have read studies that have claimed 80%. You are looking at one option being AA. Not everyone chooses to get involved in AA or any other alternative to AA. I say respectfully, how can you say that you haven't seen any long term sobriety in those that used alternatives? As Kurtrambis mentioned and I concur, not everyone obsesses over their past substance abusing lifestyle for the rest of their life. In my opinion that is not healthy. I've been to AA meetings where their are people who haven't had a drink for 20 years and they're still talking about it like it was still happening.

I know I can't drink. Period, end of story and oh yes...I DO have a defense against that first drink, because I choose not to drink and enjoy a healthy happy alcohol free life, but more importantly, I live my life.

[gerryP]

Navysteve,

Nor am I trying to stir anything up, although it often seems to be seen as such when someone has a different opinion.

Having spent 2 years and 7 months in AA out of 4 years of not drinking, much of the information I had was courtesy of AA and AA approved literature. There are a boat load of books out there that differ in opinions set out in the BB, based on research that is current.

I wouldn't seek legal advice based on 1935 observational data, nor would I see a dentist who practiced based on what was available in 1935. i suppose i could list a few other examples.

[navysteve]

We simply have a way that works for us. We claim nothing other than that

[kurtrambis]

Here's what wikipedia says
Disease theory of alcoholism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

It says many doctors reject the disease model because the say its a moral disorder.
Ironically AA who sees it as disease but offer the solution be the way of a program to improve morals.

I think the disease/illness theory of AA is a different disease/illness theory put forward by the medical profession (who wiki says generally regard it as a disease)

My doctor once said to me after a relpase that I was weak willed. He could be right but how the hell does he know how strong my sub conscious urge to drink was.

In my opinion it appears you average family doctor is generally not so clued up on alcoholism. I vote for doorknob going around teaching doctors about alcoholism.

IMO when I get an urge to drink it has a conscious will power working against my sub conscious urge.

To all those people who think defeating alcoholism is all about will power alone I really would love to plant my sub conscious urge to drink into them for a day and see how there will power copes with it.

Put a glass of water in front of normal a person and a dehydrated person who hasn't drank for days and who ever lasts the longest without drinking it can have a fiver.
No prizes who is going to win, does it mean the dehydrated person has less will power?

[nobodyknows]

Originally Posted by sfgirl

The best explanation that I have found as an answer to this question is from Addiction and Change by Carlo diClemente.

.... ordered

thank you!!!

[nobodyknows]

i think that recovery depends on the person. for some people, believing that it is a disease helps them, whereas, with others, believing that it is a disease could make it worse. what matters is that the person finds what helps them stop drinking/doing drugs. ultimately, drinking/doing drugs is harming them, and whatever way they find to stop is what is important.

[OzSandy]

Hi. I think I may agree with you, nobodyknows. Some people seem to like feeling that they have some personal control over their own recovery. With others, they prefer being able to submit the control? I'm kind of trying to find a balance. My drinking is out of control but I'm not going to give into it. Some things come down to me but defeating this on our own is so difficult because the addiction rules so many of our internal thoughts.

With the technical aspect of it, I've posted this before, and it is a very long article, but I think it was the most useful to me on the subject: Close to Home - Science: Interview with Steven Hyman

Out of my immediate family, three out of four of us were alcoholics (one now passed away) and that's including me. And there was a long line before that. So I'm thinking that it may be half genetics, half social or environmental maybe.

I have a friend who strongly believes that it is a disease and should be treated as such by the medical profession. His son is a doctor with close, first hand experience in this area - he has seen some devastating things, and how sick people really can become. Alcoholism does appear to cause changes in brain structure and cognitive patterns, though it can be reversed at least to a certain extent with the correct treatment.

[thisisme]

1011 days sober.
CHOICE.
I choose to not drink, I choose my cure. I can only "cure" a choice with action not a disease.
This will fall right down party lines. I am a Carr disciple and the disease model directly contradicts my method.
To each his own .

[Tazman53]

You know in all reality it does not matter if it is a disease or not, I will pose a few questions and let who ever reads this decide.

1. When your car breaks down do you take it to a mechanic or to a plumber?

I take mine to a mechanic because they have been trained on fixing cars.

2. If you want to buy a house do you go to a real estate agent or to a dentist?

I go to a real estate agent myself, because they have been trained and licensed by the state.

3. You have a severe toothache, do you go to a dentist or a real estate agent?

I go to a dentist because they have been to school and have experience in dentistry.

4. You want to fly some where and you are not a pilot, do you hire a pilot and a plane or do you hire a doctor & a plane?

Well I personally prefer to go with people who are trained and educated on what I want so I would go with the pilot myself.

5. I want to find out if a particular condition is a disease or not, do I just go with my own opinion based upon some feelings and stuff I have read on the internet or do I go with the conclusion arrived at by numerous scientist & medical researchers with years and years of schooling and research on this condition?

Well I feel I would be a pompous ass to think that I know more then numerous scientist & medical researchers with years and years of schooling and research on this condition. I will do as I do with all other things in life, I will not pretend I know it all, nor will I say I know more then the experts on something.

[Kallista]

I think that alcoholism is probably more than one disease that show a common cluster of symptoms, including abuse of alcohol.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by Tazman53

5. I want to find out if a particular condition is a disease or not, do I just go with my own opinion based upon some feelings and stuff I have read on the internet or do I go with the conclusion arrived at by numerous scientist & medical researchers with years and years of schooling and research on this condition?

Well I feel I would be a pompous ass to think that I know more then numerous scientist & medical researchers with years and years of schooling and research on this condition. I will do as I do with all other things in life, I will not pretend I know it all, nor will I say I know more then the experts on something.

Taz, there are those with equal education and knowledge in the field that believe the disease theory to be flawed. And it seems, in terms of recovery, that some find it helpful to view addiction as a disease and others do not.

[tanyapmc]

Here is a paper I wrote a while back for one of my classes:


My instructions were: Explain the "Disease concept of Alcoholism: to an individual who has just been arrested for DUI and who does not think they have a problem with alcohol. Include: disease concept, how medicine defines a disease. THIQ.


Alcoholism as a Disease

I understand that you recently received a DUI and do not think you have a problem with alcohol. I
am not here to tell you if you are alcoholic or not. I am here to educate you on the disease of alcoholism. Over 50% of all fatal accidents involving two or more cars are alcohol related. Some of the drivers are alcoholic, some are non alcoholic. Many look at alcoholism with a judgmental and moralistic view. In 1956 the American Medical Association stated that alcoholism was a disease. It met the five criteria needed in order to be considered a disease: pattern of symptoms, chronicity, progression, subject to relapse and treatability. Alcoholism is an illness that crosses all social classes. Anyone could get it, regardless of age, sex, education, class, ethnicity or religion. Those with a family history of drinking are at a higher risk, even if they once swore they would never drink like their mother or father.

Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease that manifests itself with symptoms that affect one physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and socially. Denial is its number one symptom, and the alcoholic is usually the last one to believe he or she has it.

This disease is often described as cunning, baffling and powerful. The alcoholic is often just as puzzled as those around him or her, because no matter how he or she attempts to modify drinking, nothing seems to work. The individual just can't seem to get a "grip" on the problem. Denial is the biggest symptom of this illness, and not just for the alcoholic. Those around the alcoholic are also often in denial, believing the person just needs to stop drinking or cut down. It is only after treatment that this confusing problem begins to make sense. The alcoholic learns that he or she has a chemical reaction to alcohol and that it is the first drink that causes the trouble. That is, it's the first drink that sets the obsession to drink in motion.

The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems.
Research shows that the risk for developing alcoholism does indeed run in families. The genes a person inherits partially explain this pattern, but lifestyle is also a factor. Currently, researchers are working to discover the actual genes that put people at risk for alcoholism. Your friends, the amount of stress in your life, and how readily available alcohol is also are factors that may increase your risk for alcoholism.

But remember: Risk is not destiny. Just because alcoholism tends to run in families doesn't mean that a child of an alcoholic parent will automatically become an alcoholic too. Some people develop alcoholism even though no one in their family has a drinking problem. By the same token, not all children of alcoholic families get into trouble with alcohol. Knowing you are at risk is important, though, because then you can take steps to protect yourself from developing problems with alcohol.

Now I want to teach you about Tetrahydroisiquinoline. Otherwise known as THIQ. THIQ was discovered in brains of alcoholics in Houston, Texas by a scientist named Virginia Davis who was doing cancer research. For her study she needed fresh human brains and used bodies of homeless winos who had died during the night and were picked up by Houston police in the morning. She discovered in the brains of those chronic alcoholics a substance that is closely related to Heroin. When a person shoots heroin into their body, some of it breaks down and turns into THIQ. The Alcoholics studied had not been using heroin so how did the THIQ get there? When the normal adult drinker takes in alcohol, it is very rapidly eliminated at the rate of about one drink per hour. The body first converts the alcohol into something called Acetaldehyde. This chemical is very toxic and if it were to build up inside us, we would get violently sick and could die. But Mother Nature helps us to get rid of acetaldehyde very quickly. She efficiently changes it a couple of more times - into carbon dioxide and water - which is eliminated through kidneys and lungs. That's what happens to normal drinkers. It also happens with alcoholic drinkers, but with alcoholic drinkers something additional happens. In alcoholic drinkers, a very small amount of poisonous acetaldehyde is not eliminated. Instead it goes to the brain. There through a very complicated biochemical process, it winds up as THIQ. Research shows that THIQ is manufactured in the brain and only occurs in the brain of the alcoholic drinker. It is not manufactured in the brain of the normal social drinker of alcohol. Once the THIQ is in the alcoholic brain it never goes away. This explains the chronicity of alcoholism.

Now for the good news. And there is good news. Alcoholism is treatable, but successful recovery from alcoholism requires active participation of the individual. It is critical that the alcoholic accepts the illness and be willing to manage his or her recovery process, much like anyone with any other chronic illness has to do. Education is essential. Recovering alcoholics must be well informed about their illness and the need for good self-care. To avoid relapse, the individual needs to learn skills in treatment to maintain and enhance his or her ability to continue in recovery. Many people are able to live and enjoy life after dealing with their alcoholism.

[Tazman53]

Taz, there are those with equal education and knowledge in the field that believe the disease theory to be flawed. And it seems, in terms of recovery, that some find it helpful to view addiction as a disease and others do not.

Agreed, but they are in the minority, heck there are still well educated "Flat Eathers out there.

But does it really matter? When one is dying of liver failure due to alcoholism whether it is a disease or not?

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by Tazman53

Agreed, but they are in the minority, heck there are still well educated "Flat Eathers out there.

LOL, they couldn't be that well educated!

But does it really matter? When one is dying of liver failure due to alcoholism whether it is a disease or not?

Course not.

[doorknob]

I found this on a pretty interesting link for the University of Texas:

36. THIQs are a cause of alcoholism. This is an old theory, which was very attractive in the early 1970s. It suggested that alcoholics, when they drink, form opiate-like THIQs (abbreviation for several artificially-formed chemicals) in the brain, to which they become dependent. Later research was not able to consistently find THIQs in the tissues of alcoholics compared to those of non-alcoholics. Thus, the “THIQ theory” is no longer popular among most scientists.

Addiction Science Research and Education Center: Drug Myths

[sfgirl]

Originally Posted by doorknob

I found this on a pretty interesting link for the University of Texas:

Addiction Science Research and Education Center: Drug Myths

Doorknob—

That was an interesting link. Two things stood out at me. The first was that withdrawal does not equal addiction. I had never really thought about it before but by the time I got to the point about caffeine not being addicting and the common misconception being in place because it causes withdrawal I went, totally. I drink a ton of caffeine but the last couple of days have cut down for no reason, not trying, not like there is a lack of it around, not thinking about it, and have been experiencing withdrawal but the lack of mental energy towards it— so not addicted, interesting.

The other thing that really jumped out was how precise the author was about language— how he was careful to choose dependency over addiction or compulsive behavior or pathological behavior over addiction. I think sometimes people throw around these umbrella terms especially in arguments and then it just gets difficult to even understand at the end what people mean. There are lots of nuances and he reminded me of that.


With this whole is alcoholism a disease question I feel like it can go two directions. One is sort of the objective intellectual argument where people bring to the table outside information and studies like the site Doorknob linked to and debate it in that realm. And the other is to frame it in a more subjective way which is how do you view it for your recovery. Then people can offer how they see it as it pertains to their recovery and it really is not an arguable point, it is just part of their recovery plan, part of their experience. I kind of feel like when the argument/question gets into trouble is when people start mixing the objective and the subjective which seems to have happened on this thread.

[RufusACanal]

I remember THIQ from my early Care Unit days; Tetrahydroisoquinoline.

The THIQ Hypothesis

[lovinmenow]

What difference does it make? I got it whatever it is.