earlybird

I just wanted to post something that Im pretty passionate about. In my opinion, moderation never works for an alcoholic. Anyone who cares about the alcoholic will think along these lines......."This person has caused himself or herself AND us (family or friends) so much money, time, worry, emotion, pain and suffering and finally gets some clean/sober time in,.....and is now going to try and drink again???" They will tell themselves that they are NOT going to go through that again. Non-alcoholics do not understand alcoholism. They just dont. They will not view this "attempt" as the alcoholic does. Even if, by some far-out chance that the alcoholic can put together any amount of moderation, loved ones will not see someone drinking moderately. They wont even let it get to that point. All they will see is a very weak person who, yet again, gave in to addiction. They will not see someone drinking moderately or socially,.....all they will see, is an alcoholic drinking again. So be mindful,.......mindful that you are risking losing loved ones and people who care about you from you life,......JUST to drink. Put in these terms,.....is moderation really worth it?

Tazman53

earlybird you are correct for an alcoholic moderation is not possible.

I am an alcoholic, I tried for 10 years to moderate my drinking, the last thing I wanted to do was admit I was an alcoholic, a large part of this reasoning is because I was ignorant!

I thought an alcoholic was some one with a weak mind, who had no will power and no control over himself, I knew I was above average intelligence, when it came to anything except alcohol I had great will power, and except for drinking had great self control. I could not be an alcoholic.

Well now I know it is a medically proven fact that alcoholism is a disease, it is not a choice, although not proven, the vast majority of researchers do agree that alcoholism is genetic. There are alcoholics out there that have never had a drink in their whole lifes due to one thing or another.

As an alcoholic I understand why others are like I once was, no one wants to be an alcoholic, part of the disease is the denial. I broke hearts and hurt a lot of people including myself by refusing to admit I was an alcoholic and could not drink safely.

Moderation is part of the pathway every alcoholic takes in the denial phase of the progressive disease of alcoholism. I will bet money that there is not one person here that knows they are an alcoholic who did not go through this phase of the disease.

For me moderation was along my path way to my bottom, for some reason it seems almost every alcoholic has to hit bottom before they can start to recover, thank God my bottom was just above the very bottom.

Steve58

Earlybird,

Once again, you seem to know all about what is good for others, and form it in a very judgmental way. How do you know all of this for a fact, that non-alcoholics don’t understand alcoholics, how they will view whatever steps one takes to mitigate the effects of their affliction on those around them. “All they see is a weak person” You know this how???

I want to say that my life experience is quite different. In my world, someone that is trying to better themselves, by whatever means, is appreciated.

Moderation IS possible, there, I said it. I personally know lots of people that have cut back, some due to health, some due to maturity, some just got tired of it. I don’t think you should be so harsh and judgmental.

Even if it is not possible for some, or even most, it also takes some people time to get their mind right. It’s a lesson that needs to be learned by the person, all the preaching in the world will not change that. And during this exploration, if someone goes from 1/5 of vodka a night down to drinking every other night, or only several times a week, they are that much better off for it. Did you ever hear of “damage control” or “harm reduction”

Tazman,

“Well now I know it is a medically proven fact that alcoholism is a disease, it is not a choice, although not proven, the vast majority of researchers do agree that alcoholism is genetic. There are alcoholics out there that have never had a drink in their whole lifes due to one thing or another.”

You really need to read up on the “Disease model” of Alcoholism. Beside the physical dependance that can be detoxed in a few days for most, calling it a “disease” is a bit of a stretch by most standards. This too is well documented outside of the mainstream community of addiction specialists who make their living off the whole idea.

As far as the genetic part, I dont see much hard evidence there, by default, we often inherit the same personalities as our parents, same likes and dislikes, so naturally if our parents like to drink, we probably do to.

Sorry guys, nothing personal, JMHO

Steve

tkdan

I can't agree more. Three months ago I decided it had been long enough and I could control it. About the only think I can control is how fast I can finish this one so I can get another. Sure I started out with one night of moderate drinking a week. It was not long before I was right back to the place where I had to admit I have a problem. That is where I'm at right now. I will quit again and this time I don't want to make the same mistake. If a person can drink in moderation that person is not an alcoholic. That is what I believe.

Tazman53

Steve are you saying that NIAA and NIH are wrong in labeling alcoholism as a disease? What credentials do you have to make statements like you have? Are you an alcoholic? Are you the head of NIAA, NIH, or the AMA? The reason I ask is you are speaking with authority and back it up with no life experience or studies. Are you saying that the studies resulting in the book "Under the Influence" are flawed?

Steve there is one thing I can tell you with authority because I am an alcoholic, for an alcoholic there is no such thing as an alcoholic moderating his drinking.

gettingbetter

One of my favorite sayings was "everything in moderation", I lived a fulfilling and productive life. Then, some bad emotional stuff that life throws at us and suddenly you've crossed over the moderation line and straight into full blown addiction that turns you into a different person. A person you would'nt recognize as yourself. The only person you are fooling is yourself.

Steve58

My statements disagreeing with the "disease model" come from various readings online. As I come across more, I will PM them to you if you are interested, as I really don’t believe SR is the place for someone presenting a case for moderation, there are online places for that.

As for "Under the Influence", being of a scientific nature, I don’t doubt what’s in that book at all. Our bodies are very adaptable, and I don’t doubt they adapt to large amounts of alcohol. But, the body also adapts to an overage of food by expanding fat cells, and the body, once heavy, will always be looking to fill those fat cells again. But we do not mandate total abstinence from food as the cure, rather the patient has to reprogram their thinking, and be constantly vigilant about how much they consume.

I am not promoting moderation, but I believe there is a place for it. I don’t even know if it is right for me. I just know that the track record for total abstinence is pretty poor, too, maybe even worse than moderation. I believe most physical ills are rooted in the mind, alcohol being no exception. Like many things, it feels good, so we do it, then we do it to feel good, and over time we condition our minds this way. I agree most of us here lack the physical safeguards that most normies have, we have no guardrail, but I think there are many that can still drive the road without going off the cliff, we just have to be more careful than others.

As for the medical community being wrong, the majority of doctors today are businessmen first, healers second. I have no trust in them because they are motivated by the bottom line. Calling alcoholism (or obesity, or gambling etc) a disease qualifies it for insurance payments, and government money sometimes, so, as always, follow the money trail for answers. The medical industry is run by politics, if your “in” you get published, P someone off, and you don’t! That’s the fact. That’s politics.

I think SR is a great place, it has been wonderful for me. Am I cured, NO, do I drink less and more carefully, YES. I am a work in progress, and change does not come overnight for me. I still dont know where this path will lead me, but I am grateful to every one of you out there for sharing your experiences, insight and knowelge on a daily basis.

Take care,
Steve

thisisme

Moderation is more work than sobriety. Why torture yourself?
Two other things I learned the hard way;
1-You need to find it out for yourself, it cannot be taught.
2-If you have to force yourself to moderate, you have a problem with alcohol.
Just me, after all it's all I really know.

Nuudawn

I am an alcoholic but I will admit I am uncomfortable with terming my problem as a disease...dis-ease with the hyphen perhaps...an allergy to alcohol even more so. But Steve I do find the comparison of learning to moderate food intake with moderating alcohol intake a little weak. Alcohol once ingested alters clarity and thought process, not to mention its physical affect. A peanut butter and jam sandwich does not affect me in quite the same way. We need food to live but we do not need alcohol...and I tell you if I could give up food completely it would be a helluva lot less work and energy than what I put into moderating it! I'm a vain woman for heaven's sake...don't let anyone tell ya it ain't work to continually monitor what I eat...and sometimes I DON'T monitor but an eating binge won't kill me or anyone else, it doesn't make me lose my memory or say and do stupid things...it's consequences is far, far less harmful...and not irreparable...I can't say the same of a drinking binge.

Steve58

Well put, Nuudawn.

While I disagree that overeating won't kill you, cause it can cause health problems and shorten life, like alcohol does, I thank you for your thoughts. You are 100% right about altering clarity and thought process. Jeeze, if food did that, I would be a total disaster.

Alcohol is in fact a food, I would venture to say. It is a form of sugar, and is readily stored as fat. Good thing for me, too. The weight gain is quite a discouragement for me.

Best,
Steve

best

As passionate as EB is about the subject, the message may help some. I know it won't help all because some of us did need learn things the hard way (me). For me, part of the reason I can find acceptance in how strong or soft a person shares a message is that of seeing some people needing to be given a hard message before they listen where as others need a gentle, soft, compassionate delivery. Gentle, soft, compassionate does seem to work better for most...even when trying to correct someone for being to harsh.
They may need to ...
Same rules work for all areas of life.
Again Steve that was an excellent point you brought out.

Bobnik

For me, an alcoholic, this discussion is quite scary. It is scary because it holds out the possibility that moderate drinking is possible for an alcoholic. For me, that possibility is life threatening.

wozzek

It's probably simplistic view - there are ample evidence that the chromosome 11 may be crucial factor in developing the addiction. "On the short arm of chromosome 11 are the tyrosine hydroxylase gene involved in dopamine biosynthesis, and the tryptophan hydroxylase gene involved in serotonin biosynthesis. With other brain neurotransmitter systems, dopamine and serotonin long have been implicated in alcoholism, in particular relation to alcohol's rewarding effects and the reinforcement of drinking behavior."

I recently excercised a "moderate drinking". Such is a lure of a booze. One night, only one bottle of fantastic red wine. Next day, I felt great like in, "see, it can be done" (i.e. having a control over a drink). The day after I was completely drunk at noon, lied to a business partner, avoid tomorrow's meetings knowing I'd be seek, spent the money I did not have available for any luxury etc., etc, etc.

We love to drink but drink sucked off our lives, assuming we're alcoholic. Any idea of "moderation" is just an excuse and a shortcut for a dissaster.

This is not an easy ilness / addiction / you choose the name. But it does have a common thing underlining the life of an alcoholic and her or his family -endless suffering. Any daydreaming about the "moderation" is just another face of the same suffering.

Just MHO.

Nuudawn

As I am not an expert on anything (not even myself apparently ; ), I can't add much to the discussion of genetics playing a role in alcoholism other than I did once read about a study of adopted children of alcoholic birth parent(s) having a rather startling higher percentage of developing alcoholism where there was no alcoholism in the adoptive family.

leeside

After 18 years I thought I could be moderate, because I forgot I'm alcoholic.

ay100

I respect everyone's opinion here. But here is my 2 cents on the subject. Every individual who has problems with drinking does not necessarrily an alcoholic or in other words there are degrees to alcoholism. Some can not go through a day without having an "eye opener" early in the morning and others drink only at night. There are also "binfge" drinkers or "problem drinkers". While I agree alcholosim is a disease and it is a progressive one that eventually wrecks the individual's life, there are some individuals who after years of drinking senseless moderated thier drinking and remained within the boundries of moderation.

If I can give a parallel example to this is as follows. Cigarette smoking is as bad as alcoholism and highly addictivte. A physical addiction like alcohol. There are some people who smoke on and off. I know a few people who smoke 3 months and do not pick up a cigarette for another 6 months or a year. (And yes they inhale). I know sevarl people whom drank as much as an alcoholic and considered as alcoholic by everyone, stopped binging and moderated thier drinking as normal people.

So what I am getting at is this: It is a YMMV thing, it is the strength of the will power. Let's do not categorize everybody in one class. Some individuals can successfully moderate.

Jbh5058

For me(an alcoholic), moderating my drinking was a miserable experience. Yes, I was drinking less and not as often, but it was impossible to relax and have a good time. There was also the remorse I faced when I didn't succeed which was freqent. Quiting all together and getting support through AA is changing my life for the better. This is what as worked for me.

best

What is an alcoholic? What others think of me because of my drinking does NOT make me an alcoholic. What "I" think of my drinking and the effect alcohol has on me is what makes me an alcoholic.

Alcoholics Can Not Moderate.

People who use alcohol in large doses that are "not" alcoholic Can moderate if they so desire and have the will power. Alcoholics can Not.

townie

OK, I mostly hang out in the friends and family section, but thought I would add my two cents here too. For the first ten years of my marriage, I tried to moderate my husbands drinking for him. Actually it worked very well for ten years....I thought, but then I discovered that he had been less than honest with me about his drug use. Then, when he quit the drugs with the help of NA, the drinking increased. Now I am attending Alanon to help me to deal with my obsession with trying to control his drinking. Saying no drugs was easy for me as they are illegal and not an activity which is done within my social circle. Right now I am hoping that my husband will learn to moderate his own drinking because the label of alcoholic seems to mean no drinking...which is not so fun for me because alcohol is a part of so much socializing. I feel like not drinking will make us social freaks in a way that no doing drugs does not. Anyway, its not my problem with deciding about how much drinking is acceptable for my spouse....I am learning to let go one day at a time...but I just wanted to say that I can understand how moderation is such an appealing idea. I am certainly hoping that my husband turns out to be a "person who uses alcohol in large does who is not an alcoholic and who can moderate and who will hopefully have the desire and the will power to do so.

Recently either Ann Landers or Dear Abby (don't remember which one) has been taking peoples opinions about not drinking in social/work situations and whether or not it has a negative effect on how well you do moving up with your career. OK, now I'm rambling.

gettingbetter

It's sad that you feel to fit in your social circle that you have to drink. I am not the type of person who would usually call somebody out on bad behaviour, but justifying your husbands moderate drinking when you know of his past, just so YOU feel comfortable is wrong on so many points. If the people you hang with can't accept you as you are, then they aren't worth being around anyhow. I hope this makes you think a little about your co-dependent behavior and your own motives for it.