step-12 or busted

[Rusty Zipper]

tonight i could use some of your thoughts! a friend of 18 yrs, who has been in and out of the rooms for eighteen years, and has "Never" made the "90" day point has, yet again gone out!... now this guy knows all the sayings, know's how to make coffee, greets very well, knows the steps by heart, answers the intergroup phone very well... point being after "18" yrs of hitting the rooms, he should know all of this... someware roaming around this site i saw a person who said they were embarrased to go back after a slip, no need to be, if we can welcome someone back after "18" yrs of trying, that shure says alot about the program... now here is where i could use some feedback.... tonight at meeting his girlfriend { with not much time } asks me if i would call and talk to him...i said no i do not want to be a part of the pity pot brigade , im not going to hold his hand, or drag him off to a meeting... this time around, the one who would never take sponsers suggestions, his will always won out upon his own addmission... had known me when i was out, saw me come in the rooms, change, take sugest. do the footwork help others , work steps, ect.ect.ect. asked me to sponser him. i had to say no, knew to much about his past, he knew mine, and the like. i told him i would help in anyway i can, give rides, be there to listen and talk, share what i now have with him and how i got there... i really believed that this time there might be some hope for him... "Cunning" and "Baffling" yes it is... his girl tells me he was laying on his bed early today in the fetal position, room dark, sitting there crying like a liitle boy... what came to mind, was the "Four Horseman"- terror, bewilderment, frustration, despair... but my alky brain was "Pissed Off" i knew if i called him i would have reemed him a new *******...look what you have done to yourself, all the people in your life you selfish *******... his girl did not understand why i would not call, she says he needs me, needs to hear from someone with solid sobriety... just how solid is my sobriety if i would not help another...? well i came home, thought about this, i am writing you folks about it...sponsers not around, or would talk to him.. i think putting the principals of program into use, is helping... im not kneejerking it... keeping the old self will out of it... i cannot fix him... i truly think this guy needs professional help... is it for me to say? i will wait to see what tommorow brings. i know my attitude will be different... is this part of "The Wisdom to Know the Differance"?.... my recovery friends... is he one of the incapeable ones ?....... this was a post i did awhile ago on another site... this dude is stil up to his old ways...in fact, i'm the new chair for three more months cuz he tested the waters, yet again... my question tonight is i have turned my back on him, my loved one has recently died, Miracal... his friend ... that stil made no differance to him, i have been down right blunt with him... for me , i just cant do it... i look at him and see all the bullchitz... mabe cuz Trish's death is to recent to me .... i dont know... and yes, i know that cornball say'n, carry the message, not the drunk... well neither for me right now... any thoughts?... i will listen..........agw, & tol... Pattee

[Justme57]

Hi Patee, good to see you .

You know , my friend, I personally believe that for you , you have done what you needed to do. You are in a very vulnerable position yourself, with Trish's death , and you need to nurture your own sobriety. i think you can be there for him, but you have to let him know that there are boundaries. He has the knowledge, and the tools, and I suppose, that if you can see he is making an effort to use them, you can support him, but if not, let him go.

They say Patee, that we cannot give what we haven't got, and you have had a bit of a time yourself don't you think? Don't drain yourself , now is the time YOU should be leaning on others.

By all means , be there for him, but IMO only if he is willing to try for himself.

Take care of you !

HUGX
Lee

[Kasia9752]

Pattee be good to yourself; there is a time to give and a time to weep; there is a time when we need to let go and we know that we would be killing our own recovery if we let the "bloodsuckers", which is what some of those who continually bounce in and out are, let them fix me enough for to say I am well and out the door I go type. Ok you are in a vulnerable place yourself; one I was in back in 1982. The difference is you are sober today; I wasn't then, so I had to do my grieving after I sobered up. Trish would hate to see you have to go on a dry drunk, or worse go out again, and you are still in the process of recovery and recovering from her loss. So please be good to yourself.

Kasia

[tantricblaze]

Pattee,

Don't they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Perhaps this man is one of those "incapable" did you say? of working a simple program?

Perhaps he doesn't really want to quit. Or perhaps he would be better suited to a different method of recovery. Has anyone suggested that he try out SMART or SOS, or something else?

-Scott

[Five]

IF he believes that AA is the only way, tell him there are other ways. After that, pretty much just be there if he wants help. If he does not want him help, then leave him be.

[FriendofBill]

A call to one who has gone back out is a nice thing....only when it will not hurt or hamper you. You are not here to save him, but if you think you would like to do god's will, which is to be kind and loving to his children....then give it a shot. As long as it does not damage you in any way.

Chances are, he wont take the call. A few of the boys here have tried calling my ex husband, currently out, and he avoids the calls. Disease never picks up the phone when recovery comes calling. That being said....if your friend is desperate enough, a hand out from you may be welcomed.

[fraankie]

first off, don't take his inventory
is he one of the incapable ones?
second,
i did it a lot my first 5 years
go to meetings
share if a newcomer wanted to do a 90 and 90
i'll do it with him

give my card to new guys
with phone number

call newcomers
try to coax them to a meeting

send them congrats cards on 90 days

go to coofee with them
so
"they" could talk

if anything
i needed to do that
and
it helped me

now, i admit i'm pretty selective
but
i still reach out

there is a passage in the big book
about sponsoring someone
the chap wanted to stop
after 5 or 6 sponsees relapsed
but
the chapter explains to never give up
because you never know the 7th might be the one to get it
and
you have a life long friend, etc

so
that said
18 years is 18 years
but
if you even helped him stay sober for one day in those years
your job is worthwhile

you can pull the ol' "let go and let god"
or
as i say
bail out
or
you can put all else aside
and
give a call

hey, you make a meeting for an hour
why not, for yourself
go over with a couple of coffees
and
do a Bill W.
sit with him for an hour
it only takes two to make a meeting

i guarantee as you walk out the door
you will fell like you hit a home run

see below



BILLY AT THE BAT 3/17/00

It looked extremely rocky for the Sudsville 9 that day
No one was keeping score nor cared what inning was in play
So, when Johnnie Walker fell flat on his face at second base
And Jack Daniels did the same
A thunderous cheer echoed and a Bud was raised by the patrons of the game

Soon another rummy came to bat, the fans, in silence, sat
STRIKE ONE! STRIKE TWO! STRIKE THREE!!!
YOU’RE OUT!!!
Head down, the batter walked away as the fans all yelled
“I’LL DRINK TO THAT�

Ernie Gallo was up next, he made it to base three
Then Julio, his brother, hit a high fly to the left fielder,
who was downing burgundy
But Ernie passed out halfway to home base
Julio stumbled, to first, the wrong way
As the Sudsville 9 sat hopeless in the dugout
The coach, Sam Adams, yelled out
“WE NEED SOMEONE WHO ISN’T DEAD DRUNK
THIS GAME TO PLAY�

The fans were silent, with blurry eyes they looked around
Was there anyone in the stand without a Miller in their hand
To down
Suddenly two stood up with their heads held high
Walked quietly,
confidently, up to the coach with determination
And a bit of procrastination
“TO WIN THIS GAME, WE�LL LIKE TO GIVE IT A TRY

Dr. Bob handed Bill W. the bat, with a cool calculating stare
Bill gripped it mightily, looked Dr. Bob in the eye assuredly
And said
“BOB, WITH YOUR HELP,
I’M KNOCKING JOHN BARLEYCORN
OUT OF HERE�

“BALONY� came the cry from the tipsy crowd as the Sudsville 9 looked on in despair
“No one can hit the ball without a drink� the fans all ranted
and raved as they grabbed another beer

Strike one; strike two came quickly as the umpire had a schnapps
Dr. Bob looked and wondered if Billy had met his match
Then the pitcher let the ball snap from his hand
Sending it to the plate, whistling thru the air at 90
miles per hour
Bill W. clenched his teeth and swung
The bat cracked as he hit the ball, sending it out of the
park, with all his power

Oh, somewhere not far away for another fan another hangover is brewing
Somewhere another band is playing off-key
As another team is losing
And somewhere someone is raising a beer to his lips as he looks
at the drunk next to him and says, “That’s not me�
But there’s an abundance of joy in Sudsville
Bill W. and Dr. Bob saved the day
For the homerun that they hit
Was the homerun that started AA

Anonymous

[jlo34]

Pray about it. No, you can't "carry" the alcoholic...but, when someone reaches out for the hand of AA, for that I AM responsible. Get a couple of guys together and 12 step him, again. Maybe this time it will hold. Though it sounds like you're trying to be selfless with doing 12 step work; it really is TO HELP YOU. If the chap chooses not to get or stay sober, well that's on him...you stayed sober though!

It's tough seeing people we want sober, still drunk. The Big Book also talks about if the chap doesn't want to be sober, don't waste your time. Do the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

The question of incapable...the only ones, which truly are quite few, if any in this day and age...are those who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest with themselves.

HOW - honest, open-minded and willing. That's all you need to get and stay sober.

Who knows whether doing another 12 step on this person will help. It may, it may not. Sounds like he has been willing at many times in his life. Perhaps this is the time that will change. Perhaps he needs to suffer some more. I don't know. Pray about it. God will lead you the right way.

Good luck,
Jen

There, but for the grace of God, go I.... Be thankful it's not YOU today!

[Five]

As I have said, maybe AA is not for this guy. He has tried for eighteen years to 'get it' - maybe - if he at least knew - that there were other paths, other sources of info about alcoholisim, and other techniques, and methods - then he would explore somethings that might suit him.

If I were you, which I am not, I would print out all the info you can find on other methods, and other info about alcholisim and say "some of this might be of help" - instead of keep going over and over the AA philosiphy in hope that he gets it.

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by Five

If I were you, which I am not, I would print out all the info you can find on other methods, and other info about alcholisim and say "some of this might be of help" - instead of keep going over and over the AA philosiphy in hope that he gets it.

I wish I had all that info when I first started seeking help. I'll admit, I did have one AA friend in Montana suggest RR.

Doorknob

[CarolD]

Re: Big Book Quote For The Day « Reply #92 on: Today at 02:43:09 AM »


5/5

"When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done." We avoid retaliation or argument. We wouldn't treat sick people that way. If we do, we destroy our chance of being helpful. We cannot be helpful to all people, but at least God will show us how to take a kindly and tolerant view of each and every one."



~Alcoholics Anonymous, 4th Edition, How It Works, page 67~

[Rusty Zipper]

thanks all of you for taking out the time for the replys... you all help'd put the we back in "WE".....as we speak, he's out doing what he does... Five, doorknob... mabe ya might be on to something... AA works for me... it may not for him... i will toss it out.... and me print it out! ut-uh... he can go to the library... i toss, he do the look'n..............ty again....agw & tol, Pattee

[Chy]

You've exteneded the hand Pattee... that's all you can do, sad but true.

[ODAT]

I believe it says somewhere that this 'disease is cunning, baffling and powerful' and I also believe that it is paramount that we adopt the attitude of "accept by the grace of God, there go I".

One of the beauties of the A.A. program is the rich diversity of people that are there. Even in this town which is much less diverse than other towns I have been in, there are folks who came in and 'got it' the first time, high-bottom drunks who figured it out after a few bad experiences....and then there are the lower bottom drunks who had to try over and over again before they finally received their grace.

I see A.A. as being essentially the sharing of experience, strength and hope and the most power of it is the basis of 2 drunks understanding each other.

Well, me being female, white, 40.......sort of a 'high bottom' drunk but with other screw up experiences which are essential to a more 'womens' experience.....I am less likely to be successful reaching out and helping a male, who's dealt with more racism issues, lower-bottom drunk. My experience is likely to sound foreign to him and he's more likely to figure I come from another planet.....he's less likely to 'get the message' from me than he is from someone who can truly understand and emphasize what it is he is going through.

This guy sounds like a very low-bottom case--a 'hard nut to crack'--and as such, someone who has gone out a few times is likely more able to understand and empathize with his shame, self-hatred and resistance than it sounds as if you are. This doesn't mean that you are 'bad' or anything of the like--just that maybe you are better of praying for him, giving rides and such and being posative in whatever way you can be.

I would, however, caution you about being anger and impatient with him. That, to me, sounds as if there maybe some fear or judgements going on on your part that perhaps you might want to look at. "Ego" as I guess it is termed although I'm not so sure as I believe all of that. Whilst frustration and such is natural--still--this guy is hurting badly, killing himself--and, wow, what a story he would be able to tell if he ever -did- "get it". In the meantime, it sounds as if you have a lot going on in your life---time to decide if this is a God-given opportunity for you to help him and thus get a little bit out of your own heartaches and such for a time--or if its time for you to say 'no, not at this time' and to give him up to God, so to speak....or suggest and introduce him to someone who's experience is more in alignment with this guys.

[Rusty Zipper]

well,this dude is stil out there... we see when, or if he comes back... i'm grounded again, the time bit, reconected, my spiritual ideas are back on track... work'n on me is a great thing... no wanna have 3 + go down the gutter again... i stil have my slipper, (7 months clean) my loafer (1 1/2 clean) and the intilect (4 months clean)... and the sneaker, well this guys him, sponsered him once......... i can open a shoe store .... and please, i'm not judgeing!!! ... their terms of endearment and the facts...... warts, and all.......... agw & tol, Pattee

[fraankie]

hey, rusty

you could do a Bill W.
get 2 other AA's
go to his home with a 6 pack / quart
get
him blasted
but
only if he says it's his last drink
then get him to a meeting

i personally don't approve
but that's the way
they did it
way back when



best
fraankie