4th Step Questions

[Phinneas]

Hello, family. I am (finally) ready, willing and able to do my 4th step. Can call on your collective wisdom to answer a few questions? (My sponsor is out of town and I'd like to get a start on this before she gets back.)

How do you organize it? I am doing it in a spiral notebook and by organize, I mean how do I get all of the resentments for one person/thing all in the same place without jumping all over from topic to topic?

Where do I start? Should I go back to childhood or stick to my drinking/using career?

Most of my resentments are of myself, is this ok; is it normal? Do I handle this any differently than resentments against other people or things?

How long should I allow? How will I know when I am done?

I know there is probably no "right" answers to these questions. I'd love to hear your wisdom and experience on the topic.

I am going to just take a deep breathe and dive in. Wish me luck!

[best]

Let your heart speak to you.
Self is one of the people you have hurt.

By example... one of my general regretes

Regrete the rude things I said to others and the harm it caused them.

I have caused harm to self with all my actions by default, so self is always going to be one of the people I will need ask forgiveness of in the steps to come.
Will deal with that when that step comes.

[Phinneas]

Originally Posted by best

I have caused harm to self with all my actions by default, so self is always going to be one of the people I will need ask forgiveness of in the steps to come. Will deal with that when that step comes.

Wow, Best. You just helped with a question that I have been holding inside for a long, long time. How do I forgive myself? Because I haven't. But I see now that I need to do the 4th step to see exactly what I need to forgive myself for. And the steps are in order for a reason. I trust that I will get there at the right time, in the right place and that I will be ready when that time comes.

((((thanks))))

[requiredfield]

Originally Posted by Phinneas

Hello, family. I am (finally) ready, willing and able to do my 4th step. Can call on your collective wisdom to answer a few questions? (My sponsor is out of town and I'd like to get a start on this before she gets back.)

How do you organize it? I am doing it in a spiral notebook and by organize, I mean how do I get all of the resentments for one person/thing all in the same place without jumping all over from topic to topic?

Where do I start? Should I go back to childhood or stick to my drinking/using career?

Most of my resentments are of myself, is this ok; is it normal? Do I handle this any differently than resentments against other people or things?

How long should I allow? How will I know when I am done?

I know there is probably no "right" answers to these questions. I'd love to hear your wisdom and experience on the topic.

I am going to just take a deep breathe and dive in. Wish me luck!

First, let me say I think you should wait for your sponsor to get back into town and ask him/her to set up a time with you to go over how it's done...

This is how I did mine:

Met with sponsor, she explained the process I took notes
Did it big book style (the best way IMO)

Four columns:
Resentment Why Affect My part in it

Note: I did the first three columns and wrote out all my resentments (anything and everything I've ever be pissed off about) until I was done. (took me about a month but I worked on it twice a week for about an hour or so at a time)... After a few weeks I went back and looked at my part in it...I needed to take that time off so I could be objective and honest. (And yes, ME was a resentment on my list....COMPLETELY NORMAL)

After that was done I listed all my fears (took one sitting)

Next, I answered the conduct questions on pg 68-69 of the Big book and in the 12&12 (pgs 54 and 55 I think)....

Lastly, I listed my assets...

Alll in all it took me about two months to do... but I have a very busy life, work, gym, meetings, etc. Anyhow, the most important thing I did was cover my entire life... b/c at the time I could do that. As long as you're doing the best thorough job you can do at the time, you'll be fine.. It's not going to be your last 4th step so if you leave something out by accident you can cover it next time... But if you find yourself thinking you might purposely leave something out... It NEEDS to get in there...

Generally, I find that ppl sweat way too much over the 4th step and complicate the **** out of it... But when you break it down, how my sponsor did, it's baby steps through it , just like everything else in sobriety. I thought mine would take me years.. haha... and when I was done, I was like "Am i done? I can't be done? Wow I think I'm done." Basically, I complicated the hell out of it in my head, when in fact it was a very simple task.


But the most important advice I can give you, is to definately pose all of these questions to your sponsor before you begin. In fact, our sponsors are there to guide us through the step process... Does he/she know that you're even taking your 4th? I waited for mine to agree that I was ready..

[Phinneas]

Originally Posted by requiredfield

Generally, I find that ppl sweat way too much over the 4th step and complicate the **** out of it... But when you break it down, how my sponsor did, it's baby steps through it , just like everything else in sobriety. I thought mine would take me years.. haha... and when I was done, I was like "Am i done? I can't be done? Wow I think I'm done." Basically, I complicated the hell out of it in my head, when in fact it was a very simple task.

Yup, this is so me. I can complicate things beyond recognition. Keep it simple, huh?

And yes, my sponsor went over this with me before she left. I understand the columns now, which I was confused about. It's just that as I start, I find lots of questions popping up (complicating things again!). She instructed me before she left to make a start and then show it to her when she gets back. She did say that few people get it on their first try, so there will be good guidance there.

I need to ask my inner "perfectionist" to step aside, I think, and ask for clarity and strength from my HP. I'm afraid of not getting it "right." That doesn't help. It will come out as it comes out. As long as my heart is in the right place and I am honest, it'll come out the way it is supposed to.

Thanks for your insight, RF.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Phinneas

How long should I allow? How will I know when I am done?

Dunno, in my case anyway.
That's why I really like step ten

The good, and the not so good.
All of it has a place in a searching and fearless inventory.

[jlo34]

Phinneas,

The first 4th step I did; I did on my own. Gave it to the sponsor I had at the time - she looked at it; said "that's nice, instead of blaming everyone else, why don't you go ahead and figure out what your part is in it." Didn't attempt another 4th step for a few years. Different sponsor, did another one - we discussed it...left too much out; no resolution, slight relief but nothing like I expected. A year ago, my hinney was up against the wall - had a good sponsor, had no other choice than to do a 4th step (that or drink/die), grabbed another hard core sponsor and just started writing.

I keep my notebook in my car and I did mine differently that the BB suggests. I headed mine by identifying the character defects/shortcomings affected in me. Wrote about the situation then identified MY part in it. I have perfectionist issues too. I also like to write - helps me to see when things are in black and white. This 4th step ended up being 11 pages. I did my 5th step with my first sponsor - still not much relief. Then the difficult parts I took to my second sponsor and within 20 minutes all the guilt, shame and pain I had been feeling...the inability to forgive self...it was gone.

The writing helped (absolutely). But my second sponsor held the key...she had a worse story than I and she was able to give me assurance that sometimes things that happen you are not and cannot be responsible for.

I went home after our meeting and got down on my knees and asked God's forgiveness and to help me forgive myself. Talk about a spiritual experience. There aren't any words I could possibly imagine to come up with to explain how I felt...those that have been there, know exactly what I'm talking about. It's something you never forget.

As for how far do you go back...I went with where my "troubles" began, when I started remembering "bad" things. I went there to present. This will NOT be your last 4th step. It does help though to get out as much as you can though. If I remembered stuff after I "thought" I was done - which things continued to hit me several days after - I just added them on.

Most of my resentments are of myself, is this ok; is it normal? Do I handle this any differently than resentments against other people or things?
I think most peoples' resentments are of themselves when it gets right down to it. Putting the "blame" aside and finger pointing was hard for me to do for a long time.


How long should I allow? How will I know when I am done?
You will "know" when you are done...if not, keep in mind, you can always do another one...!!! My second sponsor is a HUGE fan of the "mini 4th steps". UGH!!!!!

Good luck, pray before you start writing, turn your will over and let your pen/pencil do the action. Don't think - just write (that's my advice anyway).

Love ya,
Jen

[DesertEyes]

Originally Posted by Phinneas

... How do you organize it?....

There's lots of different ways of doing a fourth. As others have said, keep it simple. Think of the word "inventory", and then think of a small business trying to make a list of all it's assests and debts. What works for me is to just make a _list_. First a list of people, places and things that bring up strong emotions. Then another list of all those emotions, which I can quickly simplify to just a few emotions repeated over and over again. Then a third list of what expectations I have about those people, places and things that causes those emotions. Then a fourth list of what specific actions I can take to prevent the negative emotions from getting started in the first place, and increase the positive emotions.

Originally Posted by Phinneas

... Where do I start? ...

Start at the beginning of your disease. Which is _you_. You are a person about which you have a lot of emotions, both positive and negative. Write those down in a list. Then write down what expectations you have of yourself that you are meeting or not meeting that causes those feelings to come up. Then make a list of what actions _you_ can take to prevent the negative and increase the postive.

Originally Posted by Phinneas

... How long should I allow?....

A couple hours. Get it all out no matter how short or incomplete. You can always go back after you've done the fifth and focus on just one issue that give you a lot of trouble. You can repeat the "maintenance" steps 4 thru 9 as many times as you need.

Originally Posted by Phinneas

... I am going to just take a deep breathe and dive in. Wish me luck! ...

Go for it :-)

If you want to be really anal about it, check out the Al-Anon 4th step. It requires very few changes to be useful for any other addiction.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091...lance&n=283155

Mike :-)

[historyteach]

Just a thought here.
How about doing it on a word processor? You can set up the columns and insert things when necessary, to keep them "organized." (can't do that with a pen and paper.)

Good luck, and don't forget all of your good too, ok?

Shalom!

[Little Missy]

((Phinny)) Congratulations on being ready for your 4th step!!

I really enjoyed doing mine. (most people think I'm crazy)!! LOL But when I saw all the things I was mad about, it was funny!! I had whole buildings and establishments listed. My second grade teacher!!

I think this is where we learn about "finding our part" in things. Not to mention getting rid of all the resentments that can come up later and bite you in the butt!!

Things came to me later as my mind started to clear. Then I just speak to my sponsor about them.

Best of luck on your journey of self discovery!!
Missy

[minnie]

Mike - I was going to suggest Blueprint for Progress too. Never understood why the 4 column method in AA was so limited in comparison.

Also California 4th Step might be helpful to look at.

[DesertEyes]

Originally Posted by minnie

Mike - I was going to suggest Blueprint for Progress too. Never understood why the 4 column method in AA was so limited in comparison...

* LMAO * I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Imagine an alkie, after 15 - 20 yrs. of continuous inebriation, plenty of miscelaneous recreational chemicals tossed in for spice. Do you really think that pickled brain is going to be able to read the _whole_ BforP?!?! Never mind figure out the answers?

Why dya think they call it a "simple" program? Cuz it's for "simpled" minds.

Now if you really want to repartee; "How crazy must Al-Anons be to need such a monstruous fourth step book".

Mike :-)
[ who thinks _any_ fourth step is good if it works for ya ]

[minnie]

So not so searching and fearless, then.

Curious, not crazy (anymore), Mike, but then I think you knew that about me already.

[Dan]

All I know is that I fear minnie these days.
It's an honest program.
:sweat

[minnie]

No need to be scared, I'm a pussycat really. Unless you overstep my boundaries, of couse, when I become a tigress.

Good luck, Phinny. This will be when the Steps really kick in for you.

[DesertEyes]

Originally Posted by minnie

So not so searching and fearless, then..

The "searching and fearless" is independent of the method used. That's why it takes a sponsor to do a fourth step properly, without one it is far too easy to avoid exploration in depth.

Originally Posted by minnie

... Curious, not crazy (anymore), Mike, but then I think you knew that about me already.

Yup, there is no doubt whatsoever. I would say "stimulating and inquisitive" is more appropriate.

Mike :-)

[Phinneas]

Originally Posted by jlo34

Good luck, pray before you start writing, turn your will over and let your pen/pencil do the action. Don't think - just write (that's my advice anyway).

Thanks, Jen. Good to know other other people's 4th step experiences, especially with different sponsors. And I am so looking forward to the relief. I may not have as poweful of a spiritual experience as you had (I can only hope and pray for one), but I *need* the relief.


Thanks for the links, Mike and Minnie. And, for the advice, Mike. Keep it simple definitely applies to this alcoholic.

Originally Posted by Little Missy

But when I saw all the things I was mad about, it was funny!! I had whole buildings and establishments listed. My second grade teacher!!

OMG! You are not going to believe this but I have a resentment against my 2nd grade teacher, too. No kidding. She held me back in math and to this day, after three degrees and a 4.0 gpa, I still think I am lousey at math! (scribble, scribble, scribble - better get this one down )


Teach - A friend of mine did hers on the 'puter and I did think of that as being the easiest way to keep it organized by being able to move rows around. But, after much reflection, it feels right to hold a pen in hand and write. The 4th is between me and god (another person doesn't come in until the 5th), and I want to keep it more... organic.


Thanks for the insight, support and encouragement, family. Very helpful.

[jlo34]

My "primary" sponsor likes to remind me of "finding the EXACT nature of YOUR wrongs" - good grief that one always stings!!!

My "secondary" sponsor likes to remind me "to find my good" - that can be challenging some days!!!

I just found for myself that if I identified the headings by the character defect(s)/shortcomings it helped me to STOP BLAMING and take responsibility. Really helped out a lot. Believe it or not, even after all this time, I'm still naive as heckle!!! I'd much rather think of myself as the "innocent victim". Usually takes me a while and a lot of talking with both sponsors, my husband, and my mom before I figure out where my part is in whatever situation is going on. (A bit slow in that area!!!LOL!!!).

I do agree...stay with the pen and paper...that keeps it more real.

I tell ya...I thought I was pretty well done with my 4th step and I went to my morning meeting...which just so happened to be over the 5th step...as people were talking I found 12 more things to add to my list. I probably didn't listen as well as I should have because I wanted to remember what I needed to write down...so as soon as we said the Lord's Prayer, I bolted out the door, grabbed my notebook and started writing. Came back in when I was done and helped put everything away. Kinda comical, then as I was driving to do some errands (right after the meeting) 3 more things popped up. So I waited a few more days to make sure "no more would be revealed" and then did the 2nd half of my 5th with my first sponsor.

Say your prayers...you'll do your 4th step exactly the way you are meant to...pray about it, grab a pen, your notebook and just start writing. It's not like you will be graded on this - it's not pass or fail...do the best YOU can do...if your sponsor thinks something is lacking, I'm sure she'll tell ya. My sponsors looked a bit despondent when they saw all the pages I had written. They just asked me to "go ahead and summarize it!!".

Anyway, you'll be fine, good luck...just think of it as a truly honest journal about your life and how you felt/feel. A cleansing process. The more you write, the better you feel.

Jen

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Phinneas

Hello, family. I am (finally) ready, willing and able to do my 4th step. Can call on your collective wisdom to answer a few questions? (My sponsor is out of town and I'd like to get a start on this before she gets back.)

How do you organize it? I am doing it in a spiral notebook and by organize, I mean how do I get all of the resentments for one person/thing all in the same place without jumping all over from topic to topic?

Where do I start? Should I go back to childhood or stick to my drinking/using career?

Most of my resentments are of myself, is this ok; is it normal? Do I handle this any differently than resentments against other people or things?

How long should I allow? How will I know when I am done?

I know there is probably no "right" answers to these questions. I'd love to hear your wisdom and experience on the topic.

I am going to just take a deep breathe and dive in. Wish me luck!

I will tell you how my sponsor and I worked Step Four

First we compiled a list of every possible shortcoming I could have.From the seven deadly sins to oversensitiveness. The list was about a hundred long.

If I was PRIDEFUL. I described how I acted in prideful ways
If I was RESENTFUL. I described the nature of my RESENTMENTS.

The compilation went on to include descriptions of Anger, Jealousy, Gossip, Greed, Selfishness, self centerdness, Impatience, self righteousness, grumpiness, pettiness, hatred, lying, laziness......etc etc....

When writing I was told to remember the four "W's" Who, when, where and most importantly....WHY. Why do I think I acted this way?

Step Four asks me to be "Searching and Fearless"

Yes searching means I also go back to the time even before I started drinking.

I search as if I had lost a diamond ring in the basement and I will not be afraid and run away regardless of what I may find out about myself.

For instance I would have challenged you to a duel if you ever described me as a "Gossip" but the truth is all those so called "discussions of concern" about a fellow alcoholic were nothing more than taking the other persons inventory.

Fearless means we face the truth and accept it.

There are no right or wrong answers to Step Four and there is only one rule:

'You cannot write too much, but you can write too little."

However,remember to STOP if what you are writing becomes too painful for you and call your sponsor.

I do not know if they are available at your meeting but I believe there should be a Guide on working Steps 4 and 5 in Alcoholics Anonymous.

If it is get a hold of it.

Personally I have not seen any in a while. Few people seems interested in working The Steps anymore.

Pray. Your Higher Power will guide you and your pen will move as if with a life of it's own.

I wish you good luck Phinny.

[Phinneas]

Originally Posted by jlo34

Say your prayers...you'll do your 4th step exactly the way you are meant to...pray about it, grab a pen, your notebook and just start writing. It's not like you will be graded on this - it's not pass or fail...do the best YOU can do...if your sponsor thinks something is lacking, I'm sure she'll tell ya.

Anyway, you'll be fine, good luck...just think of it as a truly honest journal about your life and how you felt/feel. A cleansing process. The more you write, the better you feel.

Thanks, Jen. I've got my notebook and my pen. I am ready.

Originally Posted by Peter

Fearless means we face the truth and accept it.

There are no right or wrong answers to Step Four and there is only one rule:

'You cannot write too much, but you can write too little."

However,remember to STOP if what you are writing becomes too painful for you and call your sponsor.

Pray. Your Higher Power will guide you and your pen will move as if with a life of it's own.

((((Peter)))) Sage advice, my friend.


I am in a good spiritual place to do this. I am going to go have coffee with god this morning and just start writing. I will keep you posted.

I know... I know - JUST DO IT! I appreciate the wisdom, support and encouragement.

Time to move through this step.

[Dan]

Time to move through this step...
'til you get to the place where you feel it's really okay to be Phinny.

[Phinneas]

Originally Posted by Dan

Time to move through this step...
'til you get to the place where you feel it's really okay to be Phinny.

Yes.

All my life I have wanted one thing above all others. Peace.

In this moment, I am willing to do the work to get there. And I know how to get there, too. Yet another gift of this fine program.

"And we will know peace."

[Magichappens]

Hey Phinny,
My first inventory wasn't 4 column. I had too much insanity to do something that disciplined. Later, I found the great value in that process.

I did a case history to start with; a life history. It was enough to get me started with spiritual growth. With guidance from a sponsor, I was able to find my part in things, and begin cleaning up my side of the street.

Inventory is not a one time deal. We get better the longer we practice. We hone it to work better for us. But everyone has to start out clumsily, like a child learning to walk. The Big Book tells us that willingness is the key. Do the best you can, and God will know what is in your heart. Hugs, Magic

[Phinneas]

Well, I want to give you an update. I got a special notebook, made my columns and made a spiritual place for myself to work with candles and such. Before I start, I pray and get centered, asking for guidance and courage. I've been writing in chunks each day. The first three days were great. I felt good about doing the work and making progress.

Tonight's session was a lot harder. I wrote about my drinking and using and how it destroyed my marriage. There's a lot of pain there. When I put the pen down, I closed my eyes and asked god for forgiveness - the emotion just welled up from my heart. But, god keeps telling me that s/he is not the one who has to forgive me, I am.

I dunno, family. It's hard.

[DesertEyes]

Originally Posted by Phinneas

... I dunno, family. It's hard.

Yeah, it is. That's how you know it's right.

Mike :-)