Can I come in?

[Autumn]

I guess the reason that I am starting this thread here is because I am primarily seeking answers from AA members. I think that any other commentary would only serve to further confuse me, except from those who have used a combined approach to sobriety, with a heavy AA bent.

I have been abstinent for over 3 weeks now. Cravings and a concern about relapse aren't the issues here, because I don't allow myself to think about drinking.

Something is missing though - something just isn't right. The last three weeks have been a spiritual and emotional rollercoaster; to be expected, I guess. I suppose if I felt that abstinence were enough in itself, I wouldn't keep searching. While I agree that Smart's CBT approach could benefit my life in many aspects, it can't fix my spiritual needs. I don't know if AA is the answer to this.

I am not an atheist, but have trouble coming to grips with God in the traditional sense. I wasn't raised with a religious background, so this makes it extra difficult. Where is the roadblock?

As many of you probably know, many years (and thousands of brain cells ago), I tried AA. In some ways I felt that AA failed me. Maybe I didn't put enough into it, maybe it was a combination of both. I need to quit being so stubborn. I met some really super people there. They gave me their phone numbers, and I never called.

I'm thinking that I tripped up on the third step. I still need to go back to the second though. My mindset is a little different than when I attempted AA so long ago. I don't feel as hopeless or that I would be as dependent on AA as I felt back then. I have some faith in my own ability to abstain, still, it isn't enough to bridge the gap or mend the emptiness inside which I'm sure is spiritual in nature.

I have a copy of the Big Book (the pocket sized version) and Daily Reflections handy. I also have a copy of the 12 steps and 12 traditions, but need to unearth it from the dozen or so boxes of books in the basement.

Any advice or guidance from you AA members would be much appreciated.

TIA

xo

[chip]

Autumn,
I have touble with the traditonal God stuff as well. I was raised in a loving, but strict religious family. I stopped going to church when I moved out on my own at 18.

I wanted to add something to what we were talking about earlier.... about my HP. Yeah, I struggle with the tradional "God" thing. However I do strongly believe in my HP, God, or whatever it's called. I've had three times when I've really felt my HP in my life. The first was when my mother was diagnosed with cancer, and I prayed for God to save her life. I felt my HP then. The second time was when I went insane. I went through a period of time when I swear I was showing symptoms of psychosis ....Later, I came to realize it was a side effect from the abuse of "trucker uppers". Anyway, I went to a hippie church to get cured of my insanity. I quit doing the drugs I was doing, and began to pray with these people, and my sanity was restored. My sanity was restored mainly because I stopped popping pills....but I did feel my HP then, and my HP helped me get better. I was having full out paranoid delusions and I think surrendering to my HP for help, helped me.

The third time when I've felt my HP in my life is right now. I swear believing in my HP, and asking my HP to help me is really doing something for me. I hope I can keep this ball rolling, and open my heart more.
Chip

[findingout]

Hi Autumn,

I remember feeling as you do. For me the actually stopping drinking was not all that difficult, even though I never tried stopping for 25 years. But after I stopped, there was this big hole inside me that I had been filling up with alcohol. I found something to fill that hole through A.A. but A.A. is not exactly what filled the hole.

I'm writing this looking back after three years and I find it's difficult to say exactly when things changed for me. I just know that they have changed. For me, the higher power started out as the "power of we" and today, that is still a big part of it. The way I came to believe that there was something outside myself that I needed have a connection with was by listening to the experience, strength, and hope of a whole heap of different people. I found those people at the meetings of A.A. and N.A.

I came to believe that I could have a higher power that was strictly my own by listening to all these people talk about their higher powers. I realized that none of these people had the exact same definition of a higher power, yet they all talked about the same thing once I looked beneath the surface details of their experience.

And, of course, there are the actual steps. Through working the steps to the best of my ability and through listening to other people discuss their experiences working the steps to the best of their ability, I changed. I started to change when I became willing to even try working the steps and I continued to change as I worked the steps.

As important as the steps and the programs of A.A. and N.A. have been in my recovery, they are not the whole ball of wax for me. I have been reading and reading a whole bunch of books about spiritual experience and/or recovery. There are an enourmous number of them out there and I've only scratched the surface.

I hope this didn't add to your confusion.

One Love, One Heart,
Tony

[fraankie]

well, first things first
go to a meeting
and
then dig out the copies of the 12 and 12, etc in the basement

best
fraankie

[Chy]

Wow, I could say a bunch but will keep it brief as possible. First it seems that perhaps you may still have that roadblock up. First time around left a bad taste and perhaps there's some fear there of allowing the wall to come down so you can begin the growth process.

While abstaining is a good thing I know for me it wasn't enough. I had and desperatly wanted to "feel" different, feel connected, grow. I did that and began that process after I found my sponsor and began working the steps. Otherwise I was stuck in what is commonly called the "dry drunk" state. Not improving, not growing, not changing just abstaining.

If you want to give AA another shot then by all means do it. take down the roadblock, be openminded and willing, give it your all and work it hard. You'll know your doing it when you feel it. If that makes sense. You may find it's just not for you. I think any recovery option that allows you to grow, better yourself, understand your triggers is a good option and the more reputable ones include those things in the recovery process. You'll know what works for you when you find it.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by chip

Autumn,
I have touble with the traditonal God stuff as well. I was raised in a loving, but strict religious family. I stopped going to church when I moved out on my own at 18.

Hi Chip. I suppose in a lot of ways you are lucky to have experienced this, because it instilled moral and spiritual values in your life at a young age. I think it's great. I still have some sore feelings about not having been raised without some spiritual influence. My Mother was raised Catholic, and my Dad was an atheist. But I have known lots of people who have turned away from religion because of strict religious upbringings.

So you went to a hippie church, huh? That's way cool. That had to have been interesting. I bet they had a great band!

The third time when I've felt my HP in my life is right now. I swear believing in my HP, and asking my HP to help me is really doing something for me. I hope I can keep this ball rolling, and open my heart more.
Chip

You will. I really admire how you have been able to confront each obstacle you have met head-on. You're doing a lot of work, and I'm so proud of you.

(((HUGS)))

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I wasn't raised with a religious background, so this makes it extra difficult. Where is the roadblock?

I was raised in a strict catholic home. So what's my excuse?
Aside from improving the quality of my dysfunctionality, being from a religious home didn't really give me any more or less of a chance at feeling I belonged in AA when I first played with the idea I might have a substance abuse problem back in the late eighties.

I not only tripped but fell of the edge of step three countless times. Part of the reason might have been that I continued to believe I really tuned in better with the spiritual realm when I was loaded. Seems natural, as I believed everything was better when I was loaded...

So just for me, when I started accepting and understanding that a spiritual connection to the cosmic riddle happens only when I'm receptive to it, 't was then I could start chasing sobriety, knowing it was there, if I only believed.

Or something like that.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Chy

Wow, I could say a bunch but will keep it brief as possible. First it seems that perhaps you may still have that roadblock up. First time around left a bad taste and perhaps there's some fear there of allowing the wall to come down so you can begin the growth process.

Chy, I think you're so right. I suppose alcoholics build a huge wall, and are accustomed to having it there, as well as alcohol induced numbness. I haven't cried so much in years. I don't feel bad about that though, because they're healthy tears. They remind me that I'm human and not so infallible.

While abstaining is a good thing I know for me it wasn't enough. I had and desperatly wanted to "feel" different, feel connected, grow. I did that and began that process after I found my sponsor and began working the steps. Otherwise I was stuck in what is commonly called the "dry drunk" state. Not improving, not growing, not changing just abstaining.

This is much why I am re-thinking AA. I feel really stuck, and AA has a lot to offer as far as developing a moral, spiritual wholeness. As the veil of an alcoholic stupor has been peeled away, my eyes are opening more, and realize the need for something more.... something good for a change! I am most interested in step work, because it seems crucial in evolving as a more enlightened person with a sense of inner-peace.

If you want to give AA another shot then by all means do it. take down the roadblock, be openminded and willing, give it your all and work it hard. You'll know your doing it when you feel it. If that makes sense. You may find it's just not for you. I think any recovery option that allows you to grow, better yourself, understand your triggers is a good option and the more reputable ones include those things in the recovery process. You'll know what works for you when you find it.

Thanks Chy. I'm thinking AA, and then CBT as some side work. I think that I have a deep need to give something back to the world also, and AA offers ample opportunity to do that.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by DangerousDan

I was raised in a strict catholic home. So what's my excuse?
Aside from improving the quality of my dysfunctionality, being from a religious home didn't really give me any more or less of a chance at feeling I belonged in AA when I first played with the idea I might have a substance abuse problem back in the late eighties.

I not only tripped but fell of the edge of step three countless times. Part of the reason might have been that I continued to believe I really tuned in better with the spiritual realm when I was loaded. Seems natural, as I believed everything was better when I was loaded...

Yeah, I suppose it was better for me too, at some point. But then when death was literally staring me in the face I knew I had had it. There was just nowhere else to go. I'm positive that if I had continued I would have ended up dead. And since I'm such a coward about the reality of death, I had no choice but to get a grip and just STOP. The fear of death is probably the only thing that saved me.

So just for me, when I started accepting and understanding that a spiritual connection to the cosmic riddle happens only when I'm receptive to it, 't was then I could start chasing sobriety, knowing it was there, if I only believed.

Or something like that.

Yes... the ever-elusive cosmic riddle. I guess recognizing that we are a part of it is acceptance of something bigger in its own right.

Thanks Dan.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by findingout

Hi Autumn,

I remember feeling as you do. For me the actually stopping drinking was not all that difficult, even though I never tried stopping for 25 years. But after I stopped, there was this big hole inside me that I had been filling up with alcohol. I found something to fill that hole through A.A. but A.A. is not exactly what filled the hole.

I'm writing this looking back after three years and I find it's difficult to say exactly when things changed for me. I just know that they have changed. For me, the higher power started out as the "power of we" and today, that is still a big part of it. The way I came to believe that there was something outside myself that I needed have a connection with was by listening to the experience, strength, and hope of a whole heap of different people. I found those people at the meetings of A.A. and N.A.

"The power of we" makes pretty good sense. It fits into the universal riddle, since "we" are a part of it. It would be a good start. I would like to eventually believe that there is a benevolent being. I believe in karma pretty strongly, and it never fails. I don't see it, but have been clipped by the invisible boomerang enough times to know it's there. I did some reading in the "We Agnostics" chapter last night, and that helped some too. Since I quit drinking, I have avoided AA. I didn't even KNOW about other methods until I quit and got on the internet. So as I have learned the basic premises of these other programs in my quest for something more, they don't quite offer the spiritual connection I need.

I came to believe that I could have a higher power that was strictly my own by listening to all these people talk about their higher powers. I realized that none of these people had the exact same definition of a higher power, yet they all talked about the same thing once I looked beneath the surface details of their experience.

And, of course, there are the actual steps. Through working the steps to the best of my ability and through listening to other people discuss their experiences working the steps to the best of their ability, I changed. I started to change when I became willing to even try working the steps and I continued to change as I worked the steps.

As important as the steps and the programs of A.A. and N.A. have been in my recovery, they are not the whole ball of wax for me. I have been reading and reading a whole bunch of books about spiritual experience and/or recovery. There are an enourmous number of them out there and I've only scratched the surface.

I hope this didn't add to your confusion.

One Love, One Heart,
Tony

No, it didn't add to my confusion; on the contrary. Thanks for sharing.

We can never have too many books, huh? I love my books. I STILL need to get to the used bookstore. Amazon doesn't offer quite the same experience in the aesthetical realm of book shopping.

I think that serious and patient study of each step is key, and to keep studying until I have a full understanding. I'm still a little afraid; why, I don't really know. I guess step work forces one to take a long, hard look at one's weaknesses and failings as humans, and most of us aren't so eager to go there.

Ouch.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by fraankie

well, first things first
go to a meeting
and
then dig out the copies of the 12 and 12, etc in the basement

best
fraankie

Yes, fraankie, you're right. Writing on a message board is easy enough, but I can be painfully bashful around people in the outside world. But having done it before, I know that it does get easier.

Thank you.

I like your writing style, BTW.

I have scheduled an
appointment
with the basement.

[collinsmi]

When I did step 2, I turned a series of 10 statements on p45-46 into questions about my own beliefs concening God. It helped me examine irrational and inconsistent thinking I had over the years. A lot of my old criticisms concerning what I see as hypocricy in Christianity are still there. The difference now is they don't prevent a belief in and a reliance on God (as I understand him/it). I also have a more live/let live attitude about religious people than I did before. I think in my case it's a question of motives. I wanted to be an athiest so I could justify what ever behavior I cared to engage in. I didn't see myself as evil of course, and didn't want to be (and don't look back on my old self as such now) but I wanted the things in life I believed others got in abundance, seemingly without effort. While these things seem easy enough to understand intellectually, without doing the work my sponsor had me do I dont believe I would have accepted them. Step 2 is a jumping off point for a new and better understanding of God (in my case).

[Little Missy]

Fantastic ((Autumn)) It looks like you are on your way!!

I always say, "All you have to do is look into the eyes of a child to know there is something out there greater then us!!" Children are so inocent, trusting, full of life, and beautiful blessings!! (sometimes LOL)

I also like the "we" thing about AA. We can do this together. Giving freely and expecting nothing in return. Where else do you find something as wonderful as that!!

I also like that my HP is different then anyone elses. He is as I understand him. I had a hard time for a while with, why did my brother in law die at age 22, why did my mom die at age 53? The more I learned to trust in my HP, the more I learned I didn't need to know why!! The "why" of things is way beyond my ablity to comprehend!! Which has led to my acceptance of things as they are!!

It's a beautiful program for growth. I enjoyed working the steps and learning about myself. Very few people in this world get that oportunity.

Hugs to you,
Missy

[livenletlive]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I have a copy of the Big Book

Any questions you may have regarding grasping the "God" concept, read in the big book To the Agnostic. It will give you some light on the issue.

And, AA is a spiritual program, so what you are lacking will soon be filled by the spirituality AA can give you, if you let it.

[jmhs002]

Hi Autumn
AA has helped me tremendously. Just being around other sober people and knowing that I am not alone in this struggle for sobriety helps me so much.

There is often talk in my AA meeting how the program can help you live without alcohol (quitting drinking is only the start). Quitting drinking, only to be miserable was not appealing to me, and AA has started to show me a way where I can live life, be happy, AND not drink (what a concept!)

I think that you can get beyond the God hang up - just take what you can use and leave the rest. Remember that the ONLY requirement for AA is a desire to quit drinking. I wish you all the best!
JMHS

[tyler]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'm thinking AA, and then CBT as some side work. I think that I have a deep need to give something back to the world also, and AA offers ample opportunity to do that.

Hey Autumn, not an AA'er here, but have a great deal of respect for the program and how it helps those who are willing to accept it's help. I think AA and CBT is a great idea. You sound like you have reached the point in your life where you are willing to really give the AA thing a fair shake, even though it didn't "work" for you in the past. The AA program allows a fair degree of latitude in your defination of a HP, even if some of it's members insist on narrowing that focus!!! I think the key for you may be finding a sponsor that you can really relate to and can guide you without forcing their concept of a HP on you. Such a person does exist out there, you may have to look for awhile and be patient, but AA has such a wide variety of personalities I'm sure you can find the right person. I know you asked for AA opinions only and if I confused the situation in any way, please feel free to disragard this entirely!! You post just kinda spoke to me. All the best to you and your recovery. Take care.

[nutz]

Bill Wilson had the every same problem with step # 3.
The founder AA himself
His friend made a SUGGESTION.
"why don't you have a god of your own understanding"

Yeah..know what you mean.
I'm a walking donut too.

It's a process like everything else.
I had the same problem and question.
My perceptions change or understanding change as I grew.

It also a mind blowning experience and Freedom.
If A Freaken HAPPY BALL can kept me clean and sober,
anything is possible.lol

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by collinsmi

When I did step 2, I turned a series of 10 statements on p45-46 into questions about my own beliefs concening God. It helped me examine irrational and inconsistent thinking I had over the years.

Hi Collins. I hope you come back! Which book are you referring to? I was driven by curiosity to find my 12 & 12 book sooner than I planned because of your post, but I can't find the statements you have mentioned. Is it in the Big Book? Pgs. 45-46 actually fall within the "We Agnostics" chapter in my pocket-sized version.

A lot of my old criticisms concerning what I see as hypocricy in Christianity are still there. The difference now is they don't prevent a belief in and a reliance on God (as I understand him/it). I also have a more live/let live attitude about religious people than I did before. I think in my case it's a question of motives. I wanted to be an athiest so I could justify what ever behavior I cared to engage in. I didn't see myself as evil of course, and didn't want to be (and don't look back on my old self as such now) but I wanted the things in life I believed others got in abundance, seemingly without effort. While these things seem easy enough to understand intellectually, without doing the work my sponsor had me do I dont believe I would have accepted them. Step 2 is a jumping off point for a new and better understanding of God (in my case).

Thanks for sharing your experience. Yes, being an atheist is a perfect excuse for being quite the little rebel, isn't it? You have come a long way. Kind of off topic, but I always wondered why - since atheists don't believe in an afterlife - most of them don't take advantage of this one and live it with good intentions.

Thanks for your post, Collins.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by nutz

Bill Wilson had the every same problem with step # 3.
The founder AA himself
His friend made a SUGGESTION.
"why don't you have a god of your own understanding"

Yeah..know what you mean.
I'm a walking donut too.

It's a process like everything else.
I had the same problem and question.
My perceptions change or understanding change as I grew.

It also a mind blowning experience and Freedom.
If A Freaken HAPPY BALL can kept me clean and sober,
anything is possible.lol

Thanks for the big smiles, Nutz. A walking donut, lol! And what the heck is a "happy ball"? I want one too.

Hmm. I didn't know Bill had a problem with #3. I need to read his story again.

Yep, it is a process. But I won't think of it as a daunting task, because I don't want to feel like it's more than I can handle and run off again.

Thanks Nutz.

[phoenixn]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Something is missing though - something just isn't right. The last three weeks have been a spiritual and emotional rollercoaster; to be expected, I guess. I suppose if I felt that abstinence were enough in itself, I wouldn't keep searching. While I agree that Smart's CBT approach could benefit my life in many aspects, it can't fix my spiritual needs. I don't know if AA is the answer to this.

Autumn, you SHOULD be feeling exactly the way you ARE feeling. One of the keynotes of addiction is that we are constantly seeking a sensation different than the one nature (God) is providing us with at the moment.

Stop chasing sensations, and know that by definition sensations/feelings are temporary (because they are mental and physical vibrations) - they come and go. If we get caught up in how we feel, or would rather feel, then we just end up multiplying our misery.

Take it easy on yourself and let nature run its natural course. Say to yourself "OK I'm feeling depressed, or unspiritual (or whatever), let me see how long it lasts". I assure you, no sensation is permanent.

You are correct that abstinence is not enough in itself, and you are also correct that AA may not be the answer to this. AA helps us develop the art of living more honestly and with less self-centeredness - which will automatically lead to spiritual progress. Let your own body (how you feel) show you how to accept life as you experience it. If you can do that you will make progress. I am not saying these things out of any philosophical belief; I am saying them based on my own direct experience. I hope my rambling is helpful even if it appears a bit off the subject.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Little Missy

Fantastic ((Autumn)) It looks like you are on your way!!

I always say, "All you have to do is look into the eyes of a child to know there is something out there greater then us!!" Children are so inocent, trusting, full of life, and beautiful blessings!! (sometimes LOL)

Hi Missy. You're right about that. If animals count, I have only to look into my 6-month old puppy's eyes and see the same thing. I love him sooooo much.

I also like the "we" thing about AA. We can do this together. Giving freely and expecting nothing in return. Where else do you find something as wonderful as that!!

I also like that my HP is different then anyone elses. He is as I understand him. I had a hard time for a while with, why did my brother in law die at age 22, why did my mom die at age 53? The more I learned to trust in my HP, the more I learned I didn't need to know why!! The "why" of things is way beyond my ablity to comprehend!! Which has led to my acceptance of things as they are!!

It's a beautiful program for growth. I enjoyed working the steps and learning about myself. Very few people in this world get that oportunity.

Hugs to you,
Missy

Thanks Missy. Your story is very uplifting to me, and it's true that not many people get that opportunity. It makes me realize how fortunate I am, in more than one way.

(((HUGS))) to you too.