Got a question.

[Dan]

I'd like to hear from anyone, including those that may have found themselves in this post- relapse time I'm in. And let's get this out of the way right now; the only acceptable reason, to my way of thinking, that I drank, is because I chose to.
Here's the question:
*Was I white knuckling it for fifteen months, and didn't admit it to myself? Or even worse, didn't know it?

Reason I ask is that my sponsor told me something yesterday that burned a hole in my skull it was so pertinent.
'Maybe you never really stopped Dan'.

It makes sense to me right now, even though I was in the process of writing the step cycle for the second time.
I'm fond of saying that humility is that thing that flies out the window as soon as you think you have it.
Now I'm thinking that I might just include spirituality in that equation.
I posted a few days ago that I thought I was experiencing a crisis of faith the last few months. Dunno.

Random thoughts of the newly sober.

[lulu70]

*Was I white knuckling it for fifteen months, and didn't admit it to myself? Or even worse, didn't know it?

I really don't think so, Dan. There are people who stay sober for 15 years and go back out. Do you think they were white knuckling it the whole time and just didn't admit it to themselves. I am not inside your head, so I cannot truly say what happened that caused this relapse. Only you know that. However, I have been reading almost all of your posts since the first day I came here, and I could tell you were learning and growing right along with me. I don't think I was imagining it.

I have heard this, and it helps me to be very grateful for the sobriety I have today. When others come back from a relapse, and ask why it happened, people say, "We're alcoholics. We drink. Any day an alcoholic doesn't drink is an absolute miracle." I believe that to be true no matter how long we have been sober.

You were working the program, and you slipped. It happened. Perhaps it happened because some other alcoholic needed to be reminded of how fragile and precious sobriety can be.

I don't really know anything except that I am glad you are back.

[Music]

Hey Dan,
I'm sure glad you're back my friend. "Maybe you never really stopped??" Obviously you did for 15 months! To me that's like saying, "He's sober, but the other guy isn't." It's kind of objective don't you think? I wouldn't let that statement burn any more into my skull than it has.

Having said that, you know how long I've been without drinking...right? I don't have a clue what might make me take that next drink. So, what do I do today? The best I can! I stand guard at the protal of thought! My thoughts lead me to my actions. It was drummed into my head a long time ago that if stinkin' thinkin' starts, call someone, preferably my sponsor. How It Works says that I have to let go of my old ideas or the result will be nil. I've had that old idea creep in from time to time that this problem isn't that big, I can handle it by myself. Why should I burden others with it. Couple times the only right thing I did was not drink. Spirituality as with humility I think is a daily chore. I have to stay into some kind of action in order to keep either of them alive and well. I think one feeds off or leads to, the other. I have dealings with priests and nuns on my retreats and the first thing they do in the morning is meditate and pray. Some of them have been at it for 40, 50 years. Sheesh, you'd think they'd get the hang of it wouldn't you? I had one priest tell me that AA helped him to gain a spiritual relationship with God. You'd think these folks would have the God stuff in the bag.

I believe that if the right circumstances present themselves, and I get the idea that a drink will make things better, and allow that idea to live in my head for any length of time, I'll drink. Hell, I don't know why you drank, maybe nobody does, but I believe there's a certain train of thought that leads up to that first drink, and I have to practice constant vigilance so I can catch that thought or action that might be the one that triggers that obsession.

I love you Dan and am glad you're back. I remember when you left the board for a few days or a week. What was the reason you gave for leaving again?? I forgot!

[lonlion]

Dan hello, and welcome back!

I had my first relapse last year after having more than 9 months clean. Did I kick my a$$, you betcha. But now after over 10 months clean, I can look back and see that I wasn't working my program the way that I should have. I believe I became somewhat complacent believing that all I had to do on a daily basis is not pick up. They say as hard as it is coming through the doors the first time, it is twice as hard going through them the second, or third etc time. Takes a lot of humility.

BIG kudos for you for coming back! I don't think I can answer your question about spiritual principles or faith, as I believe only you can answer that for yourself. It's a personal journey. If you meditate/pray on it, I am sure you will get an answer.

This time around is so very different for me. I have less stress, even though my life after the accident has given me so many physical challenges. I can only give credit to my increased spirituality, and working my steps thoroughly with a very loving and patient sponsor.

Big hugs for you "Uncanny Dan"

Love Diana

[Wilky]

'Maybe you never really stopped Dan'.


This is the question? Nope. This is why you drank. "Men and women drink essentially for the effect produced by alcohol." So, this is why people drink. AND unless they experience an entire psychic change....there is very little hope of their recovery.

Now, THAT should humble you.

Humility is defined as "unpretending". This goes well with rigorous honesty. Both are necessary for "THE" program to work.

You never really got step one, my friend. "The principle that we shall find no enduring strength until having admitted complete defeat is the main taproot through which our society has sprung." Most people admit defeat over alcohol...but, that is not COMPLETE defeat. Therefore, without admitting complete defeat they find no ***enduring*** strength. They find strength, but it will not pass the test of time.

Check out the first page in the 1st step in the 12x12. Pay particular attention to the "unpalatable truth" that Bill speaks of.

Welcome Home!

Wilky

[KelKel]

There is a wonderful soul here at SR who agreed to be my temporary sponsor until I was strong enough to get a face to face person to work with.

This person helped me to understand a few things about Faith and Fear and the disease of alcoholism...

I will share a bit of it with you...
The antidote to fear is faith.
Has to be…

“Alcohol is a disease of faith.”
“When you persistently feel the need to change your consciousness through drugs or booze, you are expressing a lack of trust in yourself, in your ability to tolerate life undiluted, to find value in your own, unadulterated experience.”
- Kevin Griffin


Have more FAITH and THINK LESS my friend

[michski]

'Maybe you never really stopped Dan'

Well maybe you didn't, but who cares? If you white knuckled it or not really doesn't matter dearheart. You quit drinking for some months and then you did what comes so naturally for us drunks. You drank! Whether you thought you were cured/didn'tcare/lostyourfaith/gotHALT/thoughtyoucouldsneakone doesn't really matter. You drank because YOU COULD!

That was a part of my early recovery too... To tell you the truth, my life was so messed up that even though I knew I was powerless over alcohol and my life was indeed unmanageable, I still wanted so desperately to feel some power that I would sneak into a liquor store on the way home from a meeting and sit in my car saying to myself " ahhhhhh" All I wanted was to get a little reprieve from my anxiety, depression, lonliness and ever present mind garble and I hadn't learned any other way of getting those things. Just cuz I had spent a few years trying to stay sober didn't mean I had all the tools I needed to get through those still completely chemically twisted first months without booze! The urges to drink (for whatever reason) do truly diminish and even disappear with time. Getting sober is a process.. it is not an event!

So KNOW you're gonna want a drink.. this disease is so baffling. A couple of good friends and I were talking about a really good friend who has cancer and is terminal. The first thing that went thru my mind is "if I had terminal cancer I could drink!" Howz that for a sick mind? I've been sober for a few years and still these kind of "brain farts" of my addiction still pop up in me occasionally.

I remember the brain drama I went thru in early sobriety... everything in recovery was some mystical thingy out there where I just couldn't wrap myself around it! I lost patience easily and of course, I wanted it all now. People that had one whole year amazed me... I thought any one who said that their obsession for alcohol had been lifted was some kind of bliss ninny!! It's so hard to believe how chemically fu#ked up we are in early recovery... The process is like peeling an onion.. I have a few months more than 3 years sober and except for the occasional addiction brain fart, I rarely ever think of a drink.... but if I did I have learned the hard way to white knuckle it through that feeling and NOT act on it. If I act on it I will cross my own boundaries and my self esteem will fly out the window and I will feel doomed to be the piece of crap I once thought I was. I am determined to NOT let my past become my future again.
So ((((( DD ))))) please feel great that you and your HP had the flash of brilliance to come back to sobriety. Feel proud of yourself and even just a tad superior that you have the courage to change. It takes real guts! You will get all you want..
So whether your spirituality talks you out of it or you white knuckle it DON'T DRINK! just because you can.

yours in sobriety,
Michele

[In memory of miracle]

And a good question it is, my friend. If we knew the reason's why we relapsed...I believe for me it came as a combination of not doing some things, that I had no idea I wasn't doing, that only came with hindsight. Some of my thing's were just not having the coping skills or the communication skill's I needed to deal with what was going on in my life. My fault? I don't think so, they just weren't there. What was there was pain and anger and a whole lot of it! So I learned and went on from there. Did my relapse make me any less of an AA? No,it has made me a better one. We have today...that is all.

Bless, Trish

[mikee]

Great reading indeed, quitting drinking physically,,but mentally? Myself being comfortably numb over the years, left a permenant brain dent, and that the question:'Maybe you never really stopped'? Lulu's post hit it. IMO.
God bless Dan
Praying in overtime buddy,
mikee

[jmhs002]

Not sure why - glad you're back. You have helped a lot of people here!!!
JMHS

[Brookie]

Cripes, I don't know why you drank Danno. I'm just glad you're back. I can say why I'm still struggling with it - still playing the "which is better - drunk or sober" game. For me, it is still all about step one. Unless I dig my heels in, I believe that sooner or later that game of Russian roulette is going to blow up in my face, just as it did in yours. I expect there's plenty of folks around here who will agree with me too. Maybe that's what its going to take, but I think you've already paid your dues, amigo.

As for that, "you never stopped stuff," I doubt that very seriously. You had 15 months sober. If you died tomorrow, you'll know that was worth it.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Well Buddy Since All I Get Is Your Answerin Machine When I Call!!

I Tell You What, I'd Of Had A Real Rough Go Of It Getting Divorced And Bbeing 1 Year In Recovery!!!!


Now Then, What Do We Do About Correcting It?? Got Any Ideas? You Know What Your Triggers Are?

People, Places And Things? Isolation Can Be One For Me. Poor Me Poor Me Pour Me Another F#cking Drink

You Got A Old Timer In The Meetings You Go To That Talks The Talk And Walks The Walk? LATCH ON TO THEM THEY'RE YOUR LIFE LINE

I Still Like The Fact You Got Big Nads Hell, You Wouldn't Have Seen My Ugly Mug On Here For Ever. I'd Have Been To Damn Proud.

Tell These Kids Coming In How You Tested The Freakin Water And It's Still Too Damn Hot. You Are A Learning Tool For A Newcommer.

Don't Think, That You'll Be The Last Person To Have A Relapse Ole Buddy.
Every Damn One Of Us In Here Is 1 I Repeat 1 Damn Drink Away From A Drunk.

I Always Remember My Last Drunk. I Remember, The Pain That Brought Me In Here. I Don't Ever Want To Feel That Bad Again Unless There Inches From Closin My Coffin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[splendra]

Dear Dan,

I think you drank because you wanted to and you stopped because you wanted to and only you know if you were white knuckling or not for 15 months. Sometimes we can carry a little piece of dodo for a long time before we decide to get rid of it...

[CarolD]

I know what your sponsor is saying. You guys are too esoteric for me!


Please look on Page 11 in 'As Bill Sees It' for his...and my take on set backs.


Congratulations on your safe return to sobriety DD!

[best]

Straight up no punches pulled answer?

No I will give it nicely *LOL*

Because I wanted to.

I know why I wanted to, you will need search your own soul for your reason or reasons why you wanted to.

No one said it would be easy. I wanted to in part because it was the easy way...or so we think at the time.
Lazy
Tired
Chicken
Coward
Stubborn
Pigheaded
Gave up

I could use any one of those words to say why I did it but what it comes down to… for the moment when the choice needed to be made… I didn’t have the steps with me. I let my guard down and any one of my character flaws could have taken over as I allowed them to.

If I was to say it will never happen again, I would be letting my guard down and that is when it could happen again.
Just for today.
Always having the tools with me each day for if they are ever needed increases it not happening again.

You will figure out “Your” why but more important you have seen what happens when we let our guard down.

Don't beat yourself up over it. A good beating just makes us tired.
Stay strong by dusting off the extra weight of yesterday.

[best]

Originally Posted by Music

I had one priest tell me that AA helped him to gain a spiritual relationship with God. You'd think these folks would have the God stuff in the bag.

An Eskimo doesn’t know the full joy of a cold glass of water on a warm summer day the same as a Texan would. Till you feel it, you don’t fully know it.
A bigger need increases the desire and joy.

[Millwallj]

to be honest Dan I have nothing to say to you of much use. I have come close to slipping once - and it was a definite "I need to escape from this hell" thought process. I did not think about the consequences I just thought I need oblivion. I didnt thought (but my mate, who was there at the time, did - he is back now).

I think we just have to do what we can with what we know how to do. I find listening intently (with purpose) really helpful in meetings as I do talking things over with friends and my sponser. If AA is some fuzzy thing you cant quite grasp then try the literature as its very clearly states whats required.

I hope all is well and your slip turns out to be a blessing in disguise. What a lovely thing lulu said about how it may have helped a newcomer somehow.

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by Wilky

'Maybe you never really stopped Dan'.


This is the question? Nope. This is why you drank. "Men and women drink essentially for the effect produced by alcohol." So, this is why people drink. AND unless they experience an entire psychic change....there is very little hope of their recovery.

Now, THAT should humble you.

Humility is defined as "unpretending". This goes well with rigorous honesty. Both are necessary for "THE" program to work.

You never really got step one, my friend. "The principle that we shall find no enduring strength until having admitted complete defeat is the main taproot through which our society has sprung." Most people admit defeat over alcohol...but, that is not COMPLETE defeat. Therefore, without admitting complete defeat they find no ***enduring*** strength. They find strength, but it will not pass the test of time.

Check out the first page in the 1st step in the 12x12. Pay particular attention to the "unpalatable truth" that Bill speaks of.

Welcome Home!

Wilky

wilky, what about those who "admit defeat" but still decide that drinking is a good way. surely there are those out there who say 'yes, from the bottom of my heart i am powerless and admit defeat' but still choose to have a whisky on the rocks.

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by michski

'Maybe you never really stopped Dan'

Well maybe you didn't, but who cares? If you white knuckled it or not really doesn't matter dearheart. You quit drinking for some months and then you did what comes so naturally for us drunks. You drank! Whether you thought you were cured/didn'tcare/lostyourfaith/gotHALT/thoughtyoucouldsneakone doesn't really matter. You drank because YOU COULD!

That was a part of my early recovery too... To tell you the truth, my life was so messed up that even though I knew I was powerless over alcohol and my life was indeed unmanageable, I still wanted so desperately to feel some power that I would sneak into a liquor store on the way home from a meeting and sit in my car saying to myself " ahhhhhh" All I wanted was to get a little reprieve from my anxiety, depression, lonliness and ever present mind garble and I hadn't learned any other way of getting those things. Just cuz I had spent a few years trying to stay sober didn't mean I had all the tools I needed to get through those still completely chemically twisted first months without booze! The urges to drink (for whatever reason) do truly diminish and even disappear with time. Getting sober is a process.. it is not an event!

So KNOW you're gonna want a drink.. this disease is so baffling. A couple of good friends and I were talking about a really good friend who has cancer and is terminal. The first thing that went thru my mind is "if I had terminal cancer I could drink!" Howz that for a sick mind? I've been sober for a few years and still these kind of "brain farts" of my addiction still pop up in me occasionally.

I remember the brain drama I went thru in early sobriety... everything in recovery was some mystical thingy out there where I just couldn't wrap myself around it! I lost patience easily and of course, I wanted it all now. People that had one whole year amazed me... I thought any one who said that their obsession for alcohol had been lifted was some kind of bliss ninny!! It's so hard to believe how chemically fu#ked up we are in early recovery... The process is like peeling an onion.. I have a few months more than 3 years sober and except for the occasional addiction brain fart, I rarely ever think of a drink.... but if I did I have learned the hard way to white knuckle it through that feeling and NOT act on it. If I act on it I will cross my own boundaries and my self esteem will fly out the window and I will feel doomed to be the piece of crap I once thought I was. I am determined to NOT let my past become my future again.
So ((((( DD ))))) please feel great that you and your HP had the flash of brilliance to come back to sobriety. Feel proud of yourself and even just a tad superior that you have the courage to change. It takes real guts! You will get all you want..
So whether your spirituality talks you out of it or you white knuckle it DON'T DRINK! just because you can.

yours in sobriety,
Michele

spot on dude.

[Cap3]

Welcome back DD!....Can't speak on your behalf.Although its tempting,for me to do,,lol.Could try to come up with a host of things that i think ,that took you back,to drinking,but this wouldn't be helpful to you,because these would be my thoughts not yours.
After 10 years sober,i too went back to drinking.Soberiety lost its pioriety,and my gratefullness was very small.I was busy with life.It was a process for me.i had stoped following the path.I was into other teachings.Jack of all trades,master of none.lol.A little bit of this and that.,all over the place.I lost my foundation.But the most important thing was that i lost my conscious contact with God.I would get up and say a quick prayer and head towards my day.Troubles i went through with a breeze.Until a big issue happened in my life.And Fear was inside of me.I was lost.Burned out.Took my will back.Forgotten who i really am and that is alcoholic.I chose to drink.My alcoholic mind was with me again.Stinking thinking.feelings of being helpless and hopeless,again.I was out for 5 days.Came back through God,s Grace,and hugged this AA program like never before.With gusto.Got back to the basic,s.The foundation.Rarely have we seen a person fail who has...throughly.....followed....our path.Having a closer relationship with God.Everyday i spend time with God,in prayer/meditation.Everyday i read my BB.Everyday i look into my mirror,and say alcoholic Judy here.Everyday i try to help another.This today i do first,before reading other teachings,that don't counterdick with AA.But i keep the teaching of AA first and formost,.......always.........I learned the hard way.Other teachings are good,but im alcoholic and this i must never forget,or put into the back of my heart and mind again.At night,i thank God,go over my day,.I cry with gratefullness everday.
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,,take care,,keep on keeping on.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by claymama

and I just ran with my almighty ego instead of listening to the angel on my shoulder.

Welcome back Libbi.
And thank you for that.

[NoMoBeer]

Hey brother!

I don't have answers for you, only for me I guess. I really liked Music's take on it, especially the fact that you had 15 months sober, and that time doesn't vanish, you were SOBER. Whether or not you were in a dry drunk, only you can know that.

For me, and my relapses, I know that before I took that first drink, alot of stuff had to happen in my brain. I know that I disconnected from God, from my sponsor, and from AA. No doubt about that. We discussed Step 3 last night, and had a few relapsers discuss that. I know that was where I got hung up as well. I thought I was really turning my will and life over to the care of God, but I really was just saying that. I wasn't taking action on a regular basis. At the points I relapsed, my thoughts turned into negative actions. Now, since I do have self will, I need to direct those thoughts (using my self will) into positive actions, or "God's will." So far it's working, but I have to take a day at a time.

I'm glad you are back here, and sober -- you've got my email and phone number -- stay in touch and contact me when you want...

Love you brother!

Ken

[Paulie]

I *thought* I was really applying myself, but in reflection, I think I was (as I tend to do) intellectualizing it more than actually *living* it. Does that make sense?

That makes so much sense Libbi.

the only acceptable reason, to my way of thinking, that I drank, is because I chose to.

Dan I applaud you for using the word 'chose'.

I am glad you made it back, we all know that some don't. IMHO the question should be not what did I do wrong, but what can I do different this time.

[FaeryQueen]

I personally don't agree with the word "chose". I don't think you "chose" to drink again. I think you got sick(or maybe never well) and the drink got you. You had no defenses once the obsession reared its ugly head. To think that our WILL/EGO has any power to choose is denying the power of that ineffable force that keeps us peaceful and sober.
Just my opinion but I am a fool.

[Paulie]

No you are not a fool silly.

We all have our own opinions. I believe that in the beginning I had not choice, I agree with you there. But right now after being in recovery for a time, if I drink or use, it is a choice that I make. The choice may start with me not working a program, it may start with me not working with other woman, it may start with me not praying and the result of any one of those choices could be me drinking/using.

but yes I agree with you, before I found recovery, I had no choice.

Just my opinion, and today I am not a fool either .