Another one of my questions

[Millwallj]

Sometimes, for me, the programme boils down to me becoming humble - no worse, no better - than anyone else. As I am sure you are aware, it is common for alkies to say that they feel 'special and different' to all those around them.

And so, after two years sober, my grandiosity improves each day toward humility - knowing that I am not hugely special or hugely different to the rest of the human race.

But there seems to a be a paradox - as most of the AA programme insists that the disease of alcholisim has put us seperate from the human race as 'mentally and bodily' different from our fellows. Now I know that AA is a programme of personal interpretation and some people would say that we are different in drinking only. But what is the same as our fellows and what is different. Or what are we trying to defeat that is human and what are we trying to defeat that is alcaholisim?

The point I am trying to make is that a feeling of being seperate, personalised, unique, smarter, different to others is, maybe, perfectly natural and is a part of everyones lives - everyone human being maybe - to a greater or lesser degree, feels seperate and unique from others. So is it a little extreme to focus my energy on 'getting rid' of this 'defect' when doing that could, actually, make me totally different from others. In that by becoming "humble" I have some how perverted my own pschology?

Extreme I know, but its a question that nags me at meetings and worries me somewhat as I am only 24 and need to live as nature intended me.

My sponsers quip was dont worry about it until it causes pain and then look at it. Dont try and think your way into humility, its impossible.

What is others views of 'becoming humble' and do they worry about it like I do? lol

[findingout]

Millwallj,

Thought provoking as always. For me, the program boils down to "We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection." I was not perfect, I am not perfect, and I will never be perfect, although when I die I will be as perfect as I will ever get in this world.

I believe each of us in the program, and outside of the program for that matter, is a unique human being with the intelligence and creativity to interpret our own experiences and our own life in a positive fashion given the right framework. We are not saints, but we are also not sheep. At the same time, at a more fundamental level, as humans we are all the same regardless of our personal experiences. For me the higher power, no matter what name we give it or what attributes we attach to it, shows itself most plainly in the things we share in common not in the things that make us unique.

I think that it is through the common bonds, the mutual experiences, and the shared hopes and dreams that we learn to celebrate the uniqueness in ourselves and in others. We know what we know, and I know what I know, but I need to know what you know, you know?

One Love, One Heart, Jah Bless
Tony

[lulu70]

Hey Mill--Good questions, as usual. To me, having humility does not mean being the SAME as everyone else. Humility, for me, means recognizing my individuality and personal gifts and faults, and doing my best to become a better person. Not better than everyone else, but better than who I am today.

I have heard the phrase "terminally unique" as a way of describing active alcoholics. I think the word "terminally" is key in this description. (I just got up so I apologize if I am not making sense.) We alcoholics often seem to think our uniqueness makes us better than or worse than other people. One of the keys to recovery is recognizing that although we may be unique, we are not any better or any worse than anyone else. EVERYONE has issues, problems, strengths, weaknesses, etc. We all just need to learn to deal with our issues in our own way.

Hope this has helped!

Hugs--

[Cap3]

Great post Milliwallj,
I am unique..In the sence that there is no other who will see and understand the world exactly like i do.I will relate to others,as they do me,have simliarities,but it won't be "exactly" the same.No one has the color of my eyes,exactly,nor my hair,exactly,or even the number of hairs on my head.Being humble???There will always be those who are smarter than i.And those who are not.When i was working,although i felt that i was doing a good job,i knew that i could always be replaced,by another.With the company paying them less than me,because they would be new on da job.lol..Sharring at meetings i thought i was unique in my /thoughtsfeelings,my situation,,etc.But found others with similar /thoughts/feelings,been where i have been too.
Mentally and bodily different from our fellows...Yes.An alcoholic can have,similar pressures/pleasures in life as the non-alcoholic.The non-alcoholic,doesn't try to drink themselves away.They face their issues.Enjoy their pleasures.The alcoholic drinks gets drunk no matter what is happening.This is where we are "different",mentally,spirutally,bodily from these fellows.The obsession,complusion,to drink.The non-alcoholic ,has defects also,smile.They are seeing professionals,too,getting help,changing what is in them that stops them from fully having an effective life.Their just not heading for the booze,and destroying themselves.I really don't know of anyone who isn't trying to change,something about themselves.Growing,learning,stretching.Can accept ones-self,but still learn new things about themselves too,and change...That ole saying,if i compare folks to myself,i can become bitter and or vain.So when i stoped comparing,my uniqueness in this sence left me.If i were to tell you that today im , humble,then im not.Just saying ,that i am,this isn't being humble...smile....I really like what your sponsor has said.Makes sence to me,.
Don't know if any of this makes sence.,to you.It does to me,,heheheee..
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,take care!
{looking forward to others sharring.This is a great topic,thanks Millwallj}

[Millwallj]

Two beautiful posts with a great deal of detail. These concepts, such as humility, dont really have - as yet - very deep meaning. I understand them intellectually (or do I? lol) but they just dont make much sense.

I will print your things off and read them and meditate on them and stop trying to worry (I am realising that if I dont understand something I dont have to worry - I am coming from a place, afterall, where I thought I understood everything i.e when I was drinking - but its okay not to understand what half the people in the meeting are talking about).

Thank you so much for your responses, the give a lot more substance to just the word 'humility'.

[Gooch]

Great thread!



I've heard that humility is just the ability or desire to remain teachable.

I've also had a powerful example of the spiritual principle of anonymity in motion.

The oldtimers I watched that had what I wanted took the time no matter how swamped they were or what was goin on to reach out to the newcomer and the "fellowship outcastes" to make them feel welcome. They demonstrated to me that everyone of us is equally deserving.

I think the only differences is our individual perception and the set of talents that we are given. Beyond that it's up to us how we apply those gifts.

Very astute of you to recognize that teh intellectual understanding by itself leaves something missing. Again .. only my experience and perception but there is a emotional/spiritual component to these things that blends with the intellectual ones so that we have a head/heart knowledge of them.

[QueenShenique]

I find the less time I spend thinking about me the better shot I have at humility. Too much "contemplation of my belly button" as it were is an avenue for me to get into self. If I'm thinking about others, trying to do as I would have done--it kind of unfolds naturally. Less talk, more action gets me into the solution. If I'm maintaing concious contact, checking my inventory and making necessary amends when the arise I stay on track.

[laurie6781]

Hey Mill, some good questions!!! For me I have always known I was "different" from a small child on and I just "knew" I didn't fit in.

By the time I had been sober 2 to 3 years I realized I was still "different" from other folks, in the way I looked at "things" and how I processed my thoughts.

The difference though is that IT NO LONGER MATTERED nor does it matter today. I am ME.

As I evolved so to speak or grew and changed in sobriety I also came to realize that what other people think of me is NONE OF MY BUSINESS and that put me in a better place to continue to do "the next right thing", and slowly my old habits of people pleasing ("azz kissing, my sponsor used to say, lol) disappeared.

Today, I just need to be the "best" ME I can be TODAY.

JMHO

Love and (((((to all))))),

[Music]

Millwallj.... "Sometimes, for me, the programme boils down to me becoming humble - no worse, no better - than anyone else. As I am sure you are aware, it is common for alkies to say that they feel 'special and different' to all those around them."

When I first got sober, I was told that I was special and different. I guess in a way, I was and still am. I'm special because I was given the gift of the "desire" to stop drinking. A lot of people never realize this gift. I'm as different from others only in the way that I have the disease of alcoholism, just as others are different due to other illnesses that not everyone has.

"And so, after two years sober, my grandiosity improves each day toward humility - knowing that I am not hugely special or hugely different to the rest of the human race."

I've found over the years that the fact that I'm an alcoholic is interesting, but beside the point. The point is, God created all human beings as human beings. We all start out at birth, no better or worse, no more special or different than anyone else, aside from uncertain birth defects, etc. What we become is what makes us unique and is due mostly to our own efforts toward education, skills, talents, etc.,

"But there seems to a be a paradox - as most of the AA programme insists that the disease of alcholisim has put us seperate from the human race as 'mentally and bodily' different from our fellows. Now I know that AA is a programme of personal interpretation and some people would say that we are different in drinking only. But what is the same as our fellows and what is different. Or what are we trying to defeat that is human and what are we trying to defeat that is alcaholisim?"

Today I'm trying to "defeat" anything. ACCEPTANCE is the key for me. All I'm required to do is accept the fact that where alcohol is concerned, I'm bodily and mentally different but that's as far as it goes. Everyone stuggles with the same life problems. It's my resonsibility to learn to deal with those problems without the use of alcohol. To DEFEAT I have to be in a state of constant fight or flight. The purpose of sobriety is to be at peace with myself and the world in which I live. Serenity is the state of being at peace inside while the outside is/may be crazy as hell. Serenity is the state of mind that tells me "everything will be alright, that I just have to do my part."

"The point I am trying to make is that a feeling of being seperate, personalised, unique, smarter, different to others is, maybe, perfectly natural and is a part of everyones lives - everyone human being maybe - to a greater or lesser degree, feels seperate and unique from others. So is it a little extreme to focus my energy on 'getting rid' of this 'defect' when doing that could, actually, make me totally different from others. In that by becoming "humble" I have some how perverted my own pschology?"

Humility to me is truth and honesty. I may have talents, virtues, skills, education, financial worth, etc., but in the overall scheme of things, I'm human just as the next person. How do I use all these gifts? They are gifts after all, because they stem from the God given desire to attain them. Even the fact that I "recognize" that desire is a gift. I was told once that the reason right now is called the "present" is because that's what it is. A present!! A gift!! What am I going to do with it? "To a greater or lesser degree," each one of us recognizes these gifts or opportunities, and opens that "present" or not.

"Extreme I know, but its a question that nags me at meetings and worries me somewhat as I am only 24 and need to live as nature intended me."

I smiled when I read your quote. Leave it to a 24 year old to come up with something like this. I think with two years sober, this is just what I thought, simply because I had no idea what was in front of me and it seemed like, from my viewpoint, I had a whole in front of me, timewise, that is. Now I'm in my 60s and my viewpoint is a little different. I still smile though. If I knew how "nature intended for me to live," I'd probably be that big guy, with the long white hair and beard, wearing a long robe with a big G on the pocket.

"My sponsers quip was dont worry about it until it causes pain and then look at it. Dont try and think your way into humility, its impossible."

Probably similar to what I would say except for one thing. Don't worry about anything until/unless it causes pain. Humility is not "thought." Humility is action, as a result of the way I think. My actions today are a result of my thinking and my attitude. My first sponsor told me that no matter where my head may be, my feet should always be firmly planted on the ground.

[FaeryQueen]

My sponsers quip was dont worry about it until it causes pain and then look at it. Dont try and think your way into humility, its impossible.

What is others views of 'becoming humble' and do they worry about it like I do? lol

Mill,
For me humility is relative from one day to the next as a gradual disassociation from my ego as the source of "who I am". I am not my ego. I am not even seperate...on a molecular level....from anyone or anything in the cosmos. This has already been proven through quantum physics. So....if I am just a "part" of the whole....how can "I" be special? But here is the paradox....because I am precious and special in the mind of the creator.....but we all are...all of us are divinely human. Integrating our humanity with our divinity is humility, for me. Recognizing that the EGO/MIND is necessary to interact in the material universe, but the EGO/MIND is a tool for the spirit. When we are in addiction the tool is running the show and the spirit is trying to regain its rightful place. The steps restore the spirit by elimination of the various destructive elements of the ego...fear, resentment, guilt, shame....on and on.
Tanya

[Millwallj]

Wow guys, thank you so much (really feeling the benefits of SR at the moment).


Music - without kissing your ass to much, you have really, again, helped. What you said about the 24 year old comment - yes, that so applies. Fear is what keeps me trying to find an AA loop hole; fear of the future, fear that somehow, by being in AA, I am going to live a life of morbid introspection and self help nonesense. But there is sense in what you say, and what I hear in meetings - there is a genuine coming together of minds, a common sense.

thanks guys! Yipeeeee soberity is pretty damn good at the moment.

[findingout]

Recovery can be a beautiful thing.

Originally Posted by Millwallj

Fear is what keeps me trying to find an AA loop hole; fear of the future, fear that somehow, by being in AA, I am going to live a life of morbid introspection and self help nonesense.

Oh man, I can really identify with this statement. For so long, I believed sobriety to be almost as bad as the disease. I imagined this long grey future where I wouldn't be drinking but I would be trapped in some kind of twilight zone of the living dead, sober but unhappy about it. Of course, this was before I actually stopped drinking and tried to experience A.A. as it is and not as how I expected it to be. What I've found is that people don't say "One day at a time" just to hear themselves talk. The fact is that we can only live one day at a time no matter how hard we try to do otherwise, but if I take how I feel on a given day and project that feeling two weeks, two months, or two years into the future, I am taking a real step towards making that future a reality. For a large portion of my life, it had always been easier for me to project one bad day into an endless series of bad days. Good days were a fluke, a freak of nature, but bad days were a destiny. I just don't feel that way anymore.

Millwallj, I am a wee bit jealous that you are only 24 and have the oppourtunity to experience the rest of your twenties and all of your thirties living as opposed to existing.

One Love, One Heart, Jah Bless,
Tony

[Andygirl]

This was given to me from someone in the program:

"Humility is perpetual quietness of heart. It is to have no trouble. It is never to be fretted or vexed, irratible or sore. To wonder at nothing that is done to me. It is to be at rest when nobody praises me and when I am blamed or despised. It is to have a blessed home within myself, where I can go in and shut the door and kneel to my Father in secret, where I can be at peace as in a deep sea of calmness when all about is seeming trouble."
--From a plaque found on the desk of Dr. Bob after his death

I'm not quite there yet.

[DesertEyes]

Originally Posted by Millwallj

... most of the AA programme insists that the disease of alcholisim has put us seperate from the human race as 'mentally and bodily' different from our fellows.

You've taken that quote out of context. Alcoholics are mentally and bodily different from our fellows _only_ in that the majority of humans can consume mood-altering chemicals and survive. Alcoholics (and addicts and all such related ones ) can also consume mood-altering chemicals _but_ there occurs an instant and overwhelming change in our brains that leads us to a quick and brutal self-destruction.

The AA programme is _not_ a novel, or a fiction. It's an _instruction manual_. You have to read it in order and apply it in context. If you pull out a quote and separate it from the context it will no longer work. That's like trying to remove a flat tire _before_ elevating the car.

Originally Posted by Millwallj

.... Or what are we trying to defeat that is human and what are we trying to defeat that is alcaholisim?

We are not trying to defeat anything that is human, nor are we trying to defeat anything that is alcoholism. We are only trying to defeat our own personal shortcomings.

Originally Posted by Millwallj

.... The point I am trying to make is that a feeling of being seperate, personalised, unique, smarter, different to others is, maybe, perfectly natural and is a part of everyones lives - everyone human being maybe - to a greater or lesser degree, feels seperate and unique from others.

Yes, it is perfectly natural. It is also perfectly incorrect. It is the result of failing to have compassion for the other people around us who suffer great pain from the misfortunes of life. None of us are separate, we all depend on each other for mutual support both physical and spiritual. Without such support we slowly go insane.

None of us are personalized, there's nearly 5 billion of us out there and if you took a fearless and thorough inventory of yourself you would find that your wishes, dreams and aspirations are shared with much of the other 5 billion.

We are not unique. We all have the same needs and the same fears. We all suffer the same losses, the same diseases and we all eventually die in much the same way.

Smarter? Oh please, if we're so smart how come we need a program to quit commiting suicide thru chemicals?

The fact that every human being _feels_ separate and unique is exactly the root cause of our disease. When we become fully aware and accepting of the fact that we are all in the same boat and we better start rowing in the same direction then, and only then, do we begin to live a life that is happy, joyous and free.

Originally Posted by Millwallj

.... So is it a little extreme to focus my energy on 'getting rid' of this 'defect' when doing that could, actually, make me totally different from others.

Humility will not make you different from others. It will make you useful to others. It will make your life a positive asset to the world around you and, in a small way make the world a better place. It will give purpose to your life in a world where most people pass by unknown, un-noticed and un-remembered.

Originally Posted by Millwallj

... In that by becoming "humble" I have some how perverted my own pschology?

The only thing you have perverted is your attitude. If you want to get a firm grasp on the meaning of humility go volunteer once a week at a battered women's shelter. Or at a children's hospital; go sing lulabye's to the the toddlers who come in with burns and broken arms and cracked heads caused by their abusive parents. Volunteer at a teen-age prostitutes shelter and listen to their stories of how their own fathers pimped them on the street at age 12.

Try being of service to those who have suffered the wreckage of an alcoholics behavior. Do that for a year. Make yourself useful to your fellow humans instead of sitting around worrying about concepts you have not experienced.

Then come back here and talk to me about humility.

Mike :-)

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by DesertEyes

You've taken that quote out of context. Alcoholics are mentally and bodily different from our fellows _only_ in that the majority of humans can consume mood-altering chemicals and survive. Alcoholics (and addicts and all such related ones ) can also consume mood-altering chemicals _but_ there occurs an instant and overwhelming change in our brains that leads us to a quick and brutal self-destruction.

The AA programme is _not_ a novel, or a fiction. It's an _instruction manual_. You have to read it in order and apply it in context. If you pull out a quote and separate it from the context it will no longer work. That's like trying to remove a flat tire _before_ elevating the car.



We are not trying to defeat anything that is human, nor are we trying to defeat anything that is alcoholism. We are only trying to defeat our own personal shortcomings.



Yes, it is perfectly natural. It is also perfectly incorrect. It is the result of failing to have compassion for the other people around us who suffer great pain from the misfortunes of life. None of us are separate, we all depend on each other for mutual support both physical and spiritual. Without such support we slowly go insane.

None of us are personalized, there's nearly 5 billion of us out there and if you took a fearless and thorough inventory of yourself you would find that your wishes, dreams and aspirations are shared with much of the other 5 billion.

We are not unique. We all have the same needs and the same fears. We all suffer the same losses, the same diseases and we all eventually die in much the same way.

Smarter? Oh please, if we're so smart how come we need a program to quit commiting suicide thru chemicals?

The fact that every human being _feels_ separate and unique is exactly the root cause of our disease. When we become fully aware and accepting of the fact that we are all in the same boat and we better start rowing in the same direction then, and only then, do we begin to live a life that is happy, joyous and free.



Humility will not make you different from others. It will make you useful to others. It will make your life a positive asset to the world around you and, in a small way make the world a better place. It will give purpose to your life in a world where most people pass by unknown, un-noticed and un-remembered.



The only thing you have perverted is your attitude. If you want to get a firm grasp on the meaning of humility go volunteer once a week at a battered women's shelter. Or at a children's hospital; go sing lulabye's to the the toddlers who come in with burns and broken arms and cracked heads caused by their abusive parents. Volunteer at a teen-age prostitutes shelter and listen to their stories of how their own fathers pimped them on the street at age 12.

Try being of service to those who have suffered the wreckage of an alcoholics behavior. Do that for a year. Make yourself useful to your fellow humans instead of sitting around worrying about concepts you have not experienced.

Then come back here and talk to me about humility.

Mike :-)

Thanks Mike for your scary post. Hmmm....seems no one can answer a question these days without getting personal. Sure makes you doubt the human race. As for working in a battered wifes unit - I'll leave that to you Mike, where as I think I will stick to my sponsers suggestion. I have had enough of that **** to last me a life time.

I once heard someone in AA say that alkies hate other alkies more than anyone else. There was a certain chime to it.

[kweather99]

Mill,
Great post, thanks.

Gooch,
great point. This is an affair of the heart, IMHO. They say I can never be too dumb for this program, but I can certainly be too smart for it. When I resign from the debating society I start to get the gifts of humility and willingness to be taught another way of life. One that works no matter what the conditions of my life.

Music,
great point re: righting. As the Big Book says, "And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone-- even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned." (ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, page 84) And I couldn't agree more regarding humility and action - if I want to know what my value system is I simply need to look at my actions.

Humility = my ego is the right size for the right occasion. HP, please release me from the bondage of self. "It is by self-forgetting that one finds," as the St. Francis prayer states. One thing I have found in almost 2 years sober and working the Steps is that my humility is directly proportionate to the amount of effort I am putting into helping the alcholic who still suffers. When I do this I never forget where I came from and the hell that is only one sip away.

I have also found pride and fear the two biggest barriers to humility. My daily 10th Step inventory keeps me pretty humble, but I have to remember (this applied to my 4th/5th and 8th/9th Steps as well) that "pride will tell me I need not go there, fear will tell me I dare not go there." When I work the Steps I get more humble as a direct result and without fail.

[collinsmi]

It's been said, "You're unique, just like everyone else". I just used to think I was a lot more unique than everyone else!

[Music]

there will never be another human exactly like me. My DNA proves that. Other than that, I'm just another trudging human being, trying to accept life on life's terms.

I have fear of things I should have fear of. When it comes to every day life things, all I have to do is look at my past and realize that I've made it this far. What the hell is there to be afraid of? Today I have a ton of faith in God and AA, I have a ton of friends, and I have right now. No fear here.

[Aa_vark]

Great thread!

I heard a Fransiscan Priest say this recently,

"Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of your self less"