New Forum

[Andy F]

There is a new forum called 'Alcoholics Anonymous for Newcomers'. My screen only shows this forum when I am logged out. I cannot post there or even see the forum when I am logged in.

Is this a technical glitch?

[splendra]

there seems to be a lot of technical glitches going on right now here. I would say that I have lost over half of my post in the past two weeks....

[TracyAgain]

Originally Posted by Andy F

There is a new forum called 'Alcoholics Anonymous for Newcomers'. My screen only shows this forum when I am logged out. I cannot post there or even see the forum when I am logged in.

Is this a technical glitch?

Apparently not. See the troubleshooting forum.

[Andy F]

I have just read the relevant thread in the troubleshooting forum.

I accept this. I have no real choice. This is a privately owned site and we are not all equal and the traditions of AA do not have to be followed here.

Personally, I think the forum simply paves the way for zealots to go unchecked and indoctrinate the newcomer.

I think it is unfair and unhelpful. However, life is unfair and most people learn to take their lumps. This, I perceive, is one of mine. lol.

All the best and good luck with the new forum.

[TracyAgain]

Originally Posted by Andy F

I have just read the relevant thread in the troubleshooting forum.

I accept this. I have no real choice. This is a privately owned site and we are not all equal and the traditions of AA do not have to be followed here.

Personally, I think the forum simply paves the way for zealots to go unchecked and indoctrinate the newcomer.

Yes. I suspect it will be a quiet board.

[Andy F]

Tracy

This is the first time in 24 years, the last 22 of which have been continuously sober, that I have been banned from AA. I suspect it is because my views do not conform and this is the difference between an average AA meeting and a privately owned affair. I cannot be banned for my personally held beliefs in AA. Though some AA's try to give the impression that AA is conformity to God the 12 steps, it is not. And cannot be enforced. My concern here is that this new thread filters out the element that tempers and restrains the extremists who will have the newcomers indoctrinated and mowing their lawns.

Agnostics and individuals wanting a psychological approach to alcoholism have been in AA since the start. Arguing and debate has always gone on. Some people emotionally think they can't handle that or that they need to handle it for others.

I am in acceptance of my bar from the new forum, despite never having posted there. I am grateful for the other parts of SR and the level of willingness to be inclusive and open minded that currently exists. We are all getting there, progressively.

[TracyAgain]

Originally Posted by Andy F

Tracy

This is the first time in 24 years, the last 22 of which have been continuously sober, that I have been banned from AA.

I know and you don't flame either. I'm sorry, Andy. I've actually never heard of a forum where people are banned before they post. Interesting concept. I suspect it was a seriously misguided move fueled by good intentions.

I cannot be banned for my personally held beliefs in AA. Though some AA's try to give the impression that AA is conformity to God the 12 steps, it is not. And cannot be enforced. My concern here is that this new thread filters out the element that tempers and restrains the extremists who will have the newcomers indoctrinated and mowing their lawns.

I thought that way at first too but that sort of thinking is the problem IMO: that someone has to save the newcomers from the infidels, that someone has to save AA, keep it pure, etc. I ran into an article recently entitled "Your First AA Meeting, A Guide for the Perplexed" and I bet you'd like it:

But because human beings tend to have opinions about matters vital to their welfare, and because alcoholics as a group are probably more prone to having and expressing strong opinions than average, it is not uncommon to find AA members here and there who are convinced that their understanding of the AA program is the only possible correct one, and hence that failure to adhere to their beliefs and practices will inevitably lead to ruin on the part of anyone unwise enough to disregard their superior wisdom.

Since the whole psychological or spiritual aim of AA recovery is to gain a sense of perspective on oneself that leads to tolerance and a nonjudgmental outlook, individuals who attempt to compel others to accept their own beliefs cannot be said to be "practicing the program" themselves. Such people are often described as "dry drunks," i.e. alcoholics who, though not drinking, are nevertheless behaving the way alcoholics commonly do when they drink.

These "dry drunks" manifest judgmental and intolerant attitudes and a sense of personal grandiosity and "know-it-all"-ism that causes them to believe they know best, not only for themselves but also for other people. They are not content to keep their opinions to themselves, nor even to state them humbly or diplomatically. In extreme cases they resemble the firey pulpit preachers of organized religion's yesteryear, always prepared to thunder forth their understanding of the one and only Truth to infidels and unbelievers, coupling their sermons and admonitions with the direst possible warnings of what will unquestionably befall those who fail to heed them.

They are unattractive personalities who violate the AA principle of "promotion by attraction," i.e. of the responsibility of each AA member to strive to become the sort of person that others desire to emulate. The AA newcomer can safely ignore the often detailed instructions and advice of such people in favor of the more relaxed and accepting suggestions of less rigid or fanatical members.

And I suspect that is the what is going to happen. The AA newcomer will ignore the new forum in favor of the openness and honest sharing in other forums.

I am in acceptance of my bar from the new forum, despite never having posted there. I am grateful for the other parts of SR and the level of willingness to be inclusive and open minded that currently exists.

That is a question in my mind, the exclusivity of it given SR philosophy. One seems to contradict the other and the endeavor itself seems better suited to a mailing list than a "public" forum. I have requested that a list be posted of who all is banned and why but I suspect it will be ignored. Given that, I respectfully request that the site owner be involved and that any viewing moderator please send me his email address.

Thanks.

Tracy

[Time4Me]

Tracy,

That is a wonderful piece of AA literature...what a reminder to us all. I just wonder if people who claim to be these perfect examples of the AA program have any idea of how offputting they are to newcomers (and old timers)....how much damage they are really doing to the program that they say they love so much by scaring and pushing away so many who are in need of help. I was almost one of them. My first therapist nearly scared me &*^%less with the list of horrors that befall me if I didn't follow what HE considered to be THE program, and had no capacity to listen to where I really was..had to get away from him quickly.

Thankfully, I have since met many generous and wonderful AAers who have led me towards what I consider a strong, if early, sobriety.

Human beings (especially of the alcoholic variety) do not respond to those kinds of tactics.

[lulu70]

Since the whole psychological or spiritual aim of AA recovery is to gain a sense of perspective on oneself that leads to tolerance and a nonjudgmental outlook, individuals who attempt to compel others to accept their own beliefs cannot be said to be "practicing the program" themselves.

Great article, Tracy. I must admit that I have some mis-givings about this new forum myself. I definitely do not understand why someone would be banned before even posting. That just seems WRONG, in my book. When newcomers attend AA meetings, they will meet all different kinds of people. Just like here on SR! They will have to decide who to listen to and who to take with a grain of salt. I think we are doing a dis-service to newcomers by trying to "sheild" them from certain "types." I really want any one with a desire to stop drinking to get the help that they need, but they will all have to learn to find their own way. There is more that I want to say, but I can't seem to put my thoughts together. Perhaps I will post more later.

[Chy]

Yes a privatly owned site with more then adequate tolerance.

No lists will be posted.

If this site doesn't meet your expectations... there's thousands of others. If you'd like some recommendations please feel free to ask.

[Andy F]

Originally Posted by Chy

Yes a privatly owned site with more then adequate tolerance.

No lists will be posted.

If this site doesn't meet your expectations... there's thousands of others. If you'd like some recommendations please feel free to ask.

That's a bit of a kop out Chy. My way or the highway.

[3legacy]

Originally Posted by Andy F

Tracy

This is the first time in 24 years, the last 22 of which have been continuously sober, that I have been banned from AA. I suspect it is because my views do not conform and this is the difference between an average AA meeting and a privately owned affair. I cannot be banned for my personally held beliefs in AA. Though some AA's try to give the impression that AA is conformity to God the 12 steps, it is not. And cannot be enforced. My concern here is that this new thread filters out the element that tempers and restrains the extremists who will have the newcomers indoctrinated and mowing their lawns.

Agnostics and individuals wanting a psychological approach to alcoholism have been in AA since the start. Arguing and debate has always gone on. Some people emotionally think they can't handle that or that they need to handle it for others.

I am in acceptance of my bar from the new forum, despite never having posted there. I am grateful for the other parts of SR and the level of willingness to be inclusive and open minded that currently exists. We are all getting there, progressively.

Andy:
As you've put it a few times yourself, SR is not an AA Group. You are not banned from AA or banned from this particular thread. Blocked from accessing another Forum on this Non-AA entity however which has its own guidelines, rules, regulations etc... They determine the use of these tools as they see fit on any given occassion.

Many AA groups are still available to go to face to face and/or perhaps even online. It was suggested long ago that I seek them out when I stood up for a balanced approach to AA Principles at least in this Forum. Please try not to give the wrong impression here that AA has banned you and continue to use that as a soapbox for personal agenda. There is balance in the Traditions you've mentioned. Atheist, Agnostic or believer, we can all seek a better balance in their use while possibly even seeing our misuse of these spiritual principles.

Acceptance is key, many often say. Hopefully our actions will show acceptance without necessarily alluding to agreement with some or all of the decisions which have been made by a non-AA entity.

((((((((Andy))))))))))

Sincerely,
3 Legacy

Tracy:
Where did you run into that piece? I agree with some and not with others and it appears to be a personal opinion piece. Who produced and published it?

(((((((Tracy & SR A-Z))))))))))
Kiss Heart of Spirit In Love & Service,

[Andy F]

3 Legacy

I never said I was banned from all of AA or couldn't go to a f2f meeting. Why would you imply that?

I am banned from an unofficial AA forum that I have never posted on. I think that is clear and I had no intention of misleading anyone. It is a forum is says, for AA members and arguing or what may be perceived as bashing will not be tolerated. Perhaps you would have been happier if I said I had been banned from unofficial AA. Though in reality it amounts to an AA forum that chooses to ignore some of AA's traditions.

As for acceptance I think I have made it clear I am in acceptance of this. I further choose to see the overall positive aspects of SR. Please not that I made positive statements about this and don't speculate on my agenda.

[3legacy]

Your first sentence in the quoted post.

posted by Andy F-
This is the first time in 24 years, the last 22 of which have been continuously sober, that I have been banned from AA.

The comments, and then another to Chy had me believing acceptance may only have been a theory. Thats all.

(((((Andy))))))))
Have a good day. I am heading to play a bit of tennis afterall today before going to a Jail meeting.

Sincerely,
Brett

[Cathy31]

Um, hello I am banned from this as well.

MG mentioned this was her 'solution' - solution to what and why pray tell am I banned from a forum about AA which I am quite clearly passionate about.

It's just so rude!!!!!!!!!!

[Andy F]

Originally Posted by 3legacy

Your first sentence in the quoted post.


The comments, and then another to Chy had me believing acceptance may only have been a theory. Thats all.

(((((Andy))))))))
Have a good day. I am heading to play a bit of tennis afterall today before going to a Jail meeting.

Sincerely,
Brett

I accept that this is a privately owned site and all the aforementioned implications of that. It does not however necessarily reflect my own views. I am therefore, in full 'practical' acceptance, but not necessarily in agreement.


I hope you have fun playing tennis.

[Andy F]

I am surprised for you Cathy, as you are very 'pro' the steps etc. I hope its a mistake in your case.

[Cathy31]

I know and I have helped ALOT of newcomers on this Website n the same was I was (and am helped on a daily basis) when I first arrived.

I wonder what the criteria is....

[minnie]

It's very odd. I'm not banned and I'm not even an alcoholic, never mind a member of AA. What possible use could I be to an AA newcomer?

[artman]

"Since it is universally believed that man is merely what his consciousness knows of itself, he regards himself as harmless and so adds stupidity to iniquity. He does not deny that terrible things have happened and still go on happening, but it is always 'the others' who do them....Whether the crime occurred many generations back or happens today, it remains the symptom of a disposition that is always and everywhere present - and one would therefore do well to possess some 'imagination for evil,' for only the fool can permanently disregard the conditions of his own nature. In fact, this negligence is the best means of making him an instrument of evil."

Carl Jung

****************

As always I really appreciate what everyone has to say here. This is a perplexing issue but I also think a good one for stimulating self-search and self-reflection. The tools for examining my own motives and often hidden (even from myself!) agendas are among the main rewards I get from sobriety and recovery in AA.

The Jung quote fits I believe, not because what is going on here is "evil" but because he points out here so cogently how human beings have a boundless capacity for denial, self-rationalization, and projection. So very often in my life I have found that "when I am vexed, the problem is in me." This is all too easy to overlook and explain away when we are POSITIVE that if the other person would just SEE what it is that we are trying to explain to them, then it would all be clear.....

That last line bears repeating: "only the fool can permanently disregard the conditions of his own nature."

I offer this solely in the spirit of self-reflection.

Peace.....

[TracyAgain]

Originally Posted by 3legacy

Tracy:
Where did you run into that piece? I agree with some and not with others and it appears to be a personal opinion piece. Who produced and published it?

Dr. Floyd Garrett, and it was a snippet from one of his many articles on this site:

http://www.bma-wellness.com/papers/F...A_Meeting.html

[TracyAgain]

Originally Posted by Chy

If you'd like some recommendations please feel free to ask.

I like sober24.com - what are some other good ones?

[Cathy31]

Artman

Are you banned from the new forum...or not?

Cathy31
x

[Dan]

Originally Posted by TracyAgain

- what are some other good ones?

I like Sober Musicians.

[Cathy31]

Dan
I'm sure you are not banned from the new forum...are you?
Cathy31
x