Queston about AA, honesty and step 9

[harleygirl92156]

Ok, AA is an honesty program....right?

Step nine says make amends except when to do so would harm them or others.

Does that mean it is ok to lie?

example.....cheated on wife but won't tell her how many times or how many women were involved. Tells her he told the truth and is being honest, he cheated and that is all she needs to know. Invokes step 9 whenever it is brought up or discussed. When she asks him if there was more than one person he says no, just one, but indications are VERY strong there were several more. Is it ok for him to lie in this case, invoking step 9????

[BikerBill8]

Good Question, First, step 9 he already hurt you by telling you that he cheated one you so if he was with more woman he should tell you. the damage is already done. If my woman cheated on me she she would be gone i wouldn't be able to trust her and it would be over.

[lulu70]

Hey there--I replied to your post about this on the other forum, but have had time to reconsider some things. First of all, did you know he was cheating before, but he denied it? Or was this amends the first you had heard of it? Not that it matters all that much because I agree with Bill--if someone cheated on me, that would be it. I would be done. I am truly sorry you are having to go through this. I do believe that telling you names of women would be going against the principle of step 9 because he would be harming them, even more than he already has by making them adulterers. Again, I feel for you..... Hope you are hanging in there.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

I don't know why he told you What was there to gain but hurting you and betraying your trust in him. The question is, can you forgive him. Better yet, can you forgive him and move on with your life?

Is your marriage worth saving? You got some real issues facing you. Getting trust built back up is going to be hard. You and the AH sit down and talk Y? Did he say, I was not getting attention at home etc.

What ever you decide, you need to get over the resentment you have in your heart right now. Forgive him for your sake not his. Why carry the grudge around andlet it eat at you like cancer. This way, you can walk away from your marriage knowing you took the high road

hugs

chris

[mishelly]

Maybe my line of thinking isn't quite right, but I would be inclined to wonder why exactly you want to know how many times and with whom? How important is that information? I mean, do the sordid details really matter? Wouldn't that just make you hurt more? To me, the bottom line would be that the act of betrayal was committed at least once and as the others said, that would be all I would need to know, damage done.

I'm really sad for you to be going through this...been there, done that and can relate. Take care of yourself.

[Gabe]

mishelly, if your line of thinking isn't quite right...
then mine isn't either.
I completely and totally agree with you.
harley, I'm not entirely sure why you think this information is going to do anything but hurt you more than you are already hurt.
You've asked this question in several different forums and gotten various responses to it.
I'm not sure what it is you're looking for.

[Ann]

I don't know what you're looking for either, but I'm guessing it's validation for wanting to know all the details.

Step 9 is not true confessions, it's about making an amend for hurting someone. Period. I question why he would tell you at all, knowing it would hurt you, and I would have thought perhaps a living amend by just being faithful and treating you well would have sufficed. But it's not my inventory nor my amend.

Hope you find a way to be happy, because carrying this around with you every day has got to get heavy.

Hugs
Ann

[Paulie]

I agree with Gabe.

And when I read your post I knew I had read it before also.

You have to keep asking this which tells me that you are not ready to forgive. The details are not important (in my opinion) what is important is what you are doing to take care of yourself in all of this. Be honest with yourself about what it is you want to do, which may be nothing right now and that is okay too.

Your H has to live with himself, he has to look himself in the mirror, I worry about what I see when I look in the mirror, not what my H sees. Resentments will eat away at my spirit.

I wish you peace.

[FriendofBill]

This is so sad that you were hurt that way. Whats even sadder is that it didnt have to happen. Iwonder if he has a spoonsor guiding him thru the steps. If so, why in heck didnt that person explain to him the "Except when to do so would injure them" part in detail. Geeshhh.
Please try to let go of needing to know the details. It would only hurt YOU, and eat away at any chance of rebuilding trust.
Ive been there, and it aint nice.

[harleygirl92156]

What I get from the posts is that it does mean it is ok for him to lie to me.
Secrets kept from the party they impact is a LIE! A lie of omission. For that reason I am leaving the program, Al anon. Hubby can stay in AA if he choses, but I choose not to. It dishonest, secretive and almost cult like. Actually it is a little frightening.

I don't want to know the "details" I simply want to know how many different women he slept with, don't need to know how many times each, there names, what they looked like, if they were any good or better than me, none of that, just a simple answer to a simple question. How many women are involved here. I believe I have a right to know just how much I was exposed to in the six years of drinking.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by harleygirl92156

What I get from the posts is that it does mean it is ok for him to lie to me.
Secrets kept from the party they impact is a LIE! A lie of omission. For that reason I am leaving the program, Al anon. Hubby can stay in AA if he choses, but I choose not to. It dishonest, secretive and almost cult like. Actually it is a little frightening.

I don't want to know the "details" I simply want to know how many different women he slept with, don't need to know how many times each, there names, what they looked like, if they were any good or better than me, none of that, just a simple answer to a simple question. How many women are involved here. I believe I have a right to know just how much I was exposed to in the six years of drinking.

Hi harleygirl.
I'm guessing hour husband isn't willing to give an answer to your simple question. I don't know the reasons, nor the details, and I'm surely grateful for that. My only hope for him, is that he gets to a place where he can take responsibility for his actions and behaviors.
And my hope for you is that you get to a place where you can let go, as it seems you're trying to do, without casting the tired and overused cult and secretive cliche shadows over a life saving recovery program.

Your unhappiness is your responsibility.
Not AA's.

[Cap3]

Not trying to alarm you,but you need to know if he had safe sex.Being responsible,you both may want to get tested to make sure everythings ok.This is the information,that you for sure need to know.Not who or how many.But if they were ok,health wise.

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by harleygirl92156

I have a right to know just how much I was exposed to in the six years of drinking.

It sounds like you are well aware that he has had multiple sex partners.
That means there is the possibility that you were exposed to STD's.
Logical thing to do would be see a doctor and get yourself tested to be sure you are okay.
AA is not responsible for your husband's actions.
Your husband is responsible for his actions.

[Paulie]

Again I am sorry for your pain.

But, you are not understanding what you think you are. If you H is not telling you what you want to know that is between you and him, it has nothing to do with the program of AA or of Alanon. That is about him, not the program. If I go in the living room right now and lie to my H that has nothing to do with AA or any program, that is me.

If you feel not telling you everything is being lied to by omission, than that is how you feel, and that is okay...it is not a reflection of any program.

Again, I am sorry for you pain and I hope for yourself you can get past it with or without an answer from your H.

[Cathy31]

Harleygirl
Sorry I didn't see what you seem to think you saw in the posts...that it was ok to lie...no one was actually saying that at all. most people were saying a) what was the point of him telling you (seemed more to unburden his conscience than to make AMENDS) and b) they would leave...no one said it's ok to cover it up, they just tried to be supportive which is what AA is about.
I hope for your sake that you don't leave a very wonderful and special fellowship just because your husband - in my opinion - is using the steps to unburden is guilty conscience!! You don't need to leave ALANON - maybe just him!!!!
Hope you feel better soon.
Love,
Cathy31

[FaeryQueen]

You don't need to leave ALANON - maybe just him!!!!
Cathy31

Can I hear a Amen??!!!

Tanya

[harleygirl92156]

He did not have the sense or respect to practice safe sex....says he didn't need to cause she couldn't get pregnant......duh!!!

I did not walk to the doctor, but ran instead. I was tested and ok.

He was tested in treatment but didn't bother to tell me, had to find out when the bill came and it was on the bill that he had been tested. Nice huh. He new he was ok and that was all he cared about.

I my husband tells me the groups and counselors tell him he has no obligation to tell me anything. The counselor told me the same thing. I guess I don't agree with the program in some respects, not the program as a whole. I just don't understand how one can say it is an honesty program, but yet promote NOT telling the truth or keeping a secret that shows them in a bad light. I don't think it has anything to do with causing harm to others, I think it has to do with saving your own ass and manipulating situations and relationships.

[lulu70]

Your husband really doesn't have any obligation to tell you anything. That is not coming from the program, though. I know you are feeling very angry and hurt, but I have a feeling you are looking for something...anything...on which to blame that anger and hurt. AA did not make your husband cheat. He did that all on his own. AA did not make him tell you he cheated. And AA is not what is making you hurt right now. Your husband is doing a fine job of that all on his own. If you want to leave Al-anon, then by all means go. But you cannot blame the twelve steps for making your husband an adulterer.

Like others have posted, I am truly sorry for the pain you are going through. No one deserves to be treated like that. I also hope you can find a way to let go of the resentments. They are literally poison to you.

Peace--

[Gabe]

Hey harley, you already know the truth.
You know he cheated on you and you know he cheated on you more than once.
What more do you need to know?
Do you need to hear him say it?
That may never happen.
And I'm not sure what good it would do if he did.
My hope for you is that you can find a way to heal and move on from this.
His bad behavior shouldn't be consuming your life.
We have a choice, all of us.
We can either remain victims of what has wounded us, or we can choose to move on to our next good place.

[harleygirl92156]

So you are saying a husband or wife can go out and screw whom ever they want, as often as they want and as long as they don't get caught they have no obligation to tell their spouse they have cheated?
Then there is no obloigation to the vows made at the wedding, none of them.
I just don't get it!!

[harleygirl92156]

Yes for my own reasons I DO need to hear him say it!!! Just one ounce of honesty would give me hope.

[lulu70]

Originally Posted by harleygirl92156

So you are saying a husband or wife can go out and screw whom ever they want, as often as they want and as long as they don't get caught they have no obligation to tell their spouse they have cheated?
Then there is no obloigation to the vows made at the wedding, none of them.
I just don't get it!!

What I am saying is that a husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, what ever can go out and do anything they choose to do. I am NOT saying that kind of behavior is right. People make choices. Many times they are bad choices. My main point is that your husband did what he did. AA did not do it. AA in no way tells us to lie to people. However, the program does say that it is not okay to tell the truth at the expense of someone else. I am in total agreement with you that what your husband did was totally wrong. He did not keep his obligation to you--he did not keep the vows he made to you at your wedding. But AA did NONE of it. I have a feeling you knew about his transgressions before he even got sober. If that is not the case, I am truly sorry for my mis-conception. If it is the case, then the hurt began long before he tried to make amends.

As others have said, what is it that you want someone to say? None of us can tell you how many women your husband was with or who they were or any of that. If you want us to say you are right--it is the program of AA that is causing you all this pain, we can't say that either.

I will say an extra prayer for you tonight, Harleygirl. I will ask that you may find peace and that you can be relieved of the pain and heartache.

God bless you--

harleygirl,

I understand your need to know. I'm like that too. I can handle what I know and can't handle what I don't know.

You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It's never going to work. Even if you found out all the details now there would still be more life and more suspicions. Knowing the details gives you the feeling of having more control. That's an illusion and a false hope.

Facts
He cheated on you at least once. He is not being open and honest.
He has not been someone you can trust to be faithful or trust to be truthful.
He can't be controlled by you or forced to be faithful or truthful.
Nothing you do can change the facts above. If he is wrong it doesn't change the facts listed above. If AA is wrong it doesn't change the facts listed above. If Al-anon is wrong it doesn't change the facts listed above. He has the right as a human being to lie, cheat, and control his own actions and behavior. You have the right to leave if you don't like it. You do not have the right to force him into anything. Those are just the facts. The facts do not have anything to do with morals, values, responsibility, or breach of contract.

Some of your choices include:
Stay and continue to try to control him and make him talk.
Stay and accept the behavior that you find unacceptable.
Stay and hope that things will change.
Stay and blame everyone else for his behavior that you find unacceptable.
Stay and blame yourself for behavior that you find unacceptable.
Stay and take responsibility for your own feelings and get involved in counseling and work with him or alone to see if you can find healing for all these painful experiences. Work on your own character defects while he works on his.

Take responsibility for your own feelings and leave and don't accept the behavior that you find unacceptable.

Find support that will allow you to move on and start over.
Work on your own character defects and stop focusing on someone else's character defects.

There is no magic wand that will make things better. It will take work on your part to change the situation you're in. Waiting for him to change so your life will be ok will never work. You can't make him be what you want him to be. You can't make him faithful, truthful, honest, responsible, etc. That has to come from within him. You can only work on yourself.

Hugs

[harleygirl92156]

The people and counselors in AA told him to lie to me or not tell me at all. That is why I feel AA plays a part in his deception. He feels he is doing what the Program tells him to do, and what they HAVE told him to do. That is what gives me the bad taste in my mouth.

I suspected before he got sober and had confronted him with it only to be lied to. Now he has been told by those in AA that he has made his amends and told the truth, so he feels it is over. AA has converted his way of thinking, thinking only of himself.

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by harleygirl92156

The people and counselors in AA told him to lie to me or not tell me at all.

Again harley, he is responsible for his behavior.
If in fact people told him to lie to you, he had a choice as to whether or not he would do that.
Me...I don't think anyone told him to lie to you at all.
That's not what the program is about.
If you want to think he lied because he was instructed to do so, go ahead and think that.
This isn't about AA or the counselor or anyone but him being dishonest with you.