Problems With God..

[EdLova]

Here's some truth for some of you..Just because I have frequently seen some members here who are having some trouble with the word "GOD" and how some of us use it..

If you're having trouble with God and you have some time away from a drink, trust me, you ain't had a 1st step experience

Who the hell would have trouble with the "God issue" once they see their truth in the 1st step?

[Dan]

Dang...
And here I thought all along that when I rolled down the steps to the basement of the church that night, sick and hopeless, and....

Never mind.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by EdLova

snip
Who the hell would have trouble with the "God issue" once they see their truth in the 1st step?

Probably someone who doesn't believe in a god who answers prayers or intervenes in human events. That would cover atheists, agnostics, and those who are simply non-religious--about 8 - 10% of Americans. They may nevertheless feel that they have difficulty controlling their drinking, or that their lives have become unmanageable, and that they would like some help from others in achieving that control.
Don S

[doorknob]

Ed,

Why do you have such a problem with someone else not believing in an interventionalist deity, i.e. "God"?

Doorknob

[Andy F]

Originally Posted by Don S

--about 8 - 10% of Americans. Don S

and one bloke from the UK.

[Chy]

Just one Andy?

[best]

Originally Posted by Andy F

and one bloke from the UK.

*LOL*

With the way Ed puts things across to people you may soon have others join you.

[Andy F]

CHY

Give me a minute, I'll go and ask. lol.

[2dayzmuse]

Believe, don't believe or remain indifferent. It's a persoanl choice that is subject to change at any given moment, or not. Faith waxes and wanes and at certain points in my life remained non existant. When it comes to the word GOD and somebody tries to convince me of their beliefs, I'm tuned out and turned off. Not interested.

Today my beliefs have changed and I'm more open minded, but choose not to force my beliefs on anybody else. If they are not ready or open to the idea, they will tune out as well. You can shout out the word GOD until you're blue in the face. Even today, I would turn and run in the opposite direction if I were to encounter a force fed sermon.

I'm not interested in anyone else's relationship with GOD. I'm interested in my own. How did I get to that point? Slowly and with reserve. In time my relationship developed into something that is my own belief. I could never understand what it meant or felt to have faith until I began to experience it for myself. I suspect that to be true for others. You can't know what you don't know.

I'm glad I was willing to open up my heart and mind to the notion of a HP. I see and feel its presence working in my life daily. ...works in mysterious ways. However, to each his own.

[minnie]

And people wonder why there is a problem with AA and religion....

[mackcat]

i was a long ago preacher , one of those southern fun'mentalist, street corner guys- i found "women, whiskey and nietche" as my next calling.

like 2dayM, if i would have heard a dollop of that old time religion at my first meetings, i would have been out the door NEVER to return!!- much preferred to have died drunk.

what i found was such an inclusive fellowship which emphasized spirituality , love, faith , prayer and meditation that i could sit down and listen. you did not preach. you shared your ESH

the Eastern traditions use but a single syllable to denote their concept of HP.
because they feel that , like Rumi said, you cannot compare god with anything...

what binds us in the rooms together is the same message that finds its way into all spiritual paths no matter how 'traditional', 'primitive' 'tribal' or 'mainstream':

we have gone into the Dark.
we have returned to Light
we bring , out of our suffering
the message of Hope
to our brothers and sisters

hugs
mackat

[Dan]

Originally Posted by minnie

And people wonder why there is a problem with AA and religion....

AA would surely be a perfect program, like Music is fond of calling it, were it not for all of us AA members.

We're still all glued to eachother, no matter what, whether we know it or not.

[tramp]

i have no problem with god, it's with self righteous christians, and spoiled brats who throw tantrums so as to be the center of attention.

[tyler]

I am an agnostic, but two of my best friends are extremely religious, Southern Baptists. The reason we get along so well, and I respect them so much, is that they don't feel the need to preach about their beliefs. If you ask them about them they will gladly sit down and have a Bible study with you, and I've done that with them before. It didn't change my beliefs, but more knowledge can never hurt anyone. They don't feel the need to preach to people because they live their religion. They don't have to tell you that they are religious, you can see it through their actions and behaviors. I have so much more respect for this than someone who feels the need to beat me over the head with their Bible. I will never listen to that person, they are talking to themselves as far as I am concerned. I've enjoyed reading Ed's posts, they make me laugh, I find self rightousness amusing. It seems that the one's who feel the need to scream the loudest are the one's truly in need.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Andy F

and one bloke from the UK.

Make that two

I don't think religion should be voiced or even suggested as a part of someones healing, unless they make clear that it's very important to them. If anyone tells me they are praying for me, I'm not bothered - if it gives them a feeling of somehow helping out - that's okay with me. But it really doesn't change anything for me. There is another issue here:
I came onto this site because I feel alone with a burden. That makes me vulnerable. If someones trying to sell me God, like a magic pill to take away my pain... I feel pressured. I don't need that.
Sorry if this offends anyone, but I want to face up to my life without that magic pill. I have to if I'm going to save myself.
Karl

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Our primary purpose is, to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety.

Most of you might or, might not of heard this. I'd rather believe and be wrong then to not believe and be right.

I'll agree, I don't want a sermon at an AA meeting. Someone wants to say how their life got better with a loving God as they believe in their mind and spirit is fine.

All I know is, my life is so good today with my accpting the 3rd step to the best of my ability and working the 11th step and 12th step not to the best of my ability but, progressing each day.

I like to keep a religion out of public schools and the court system as well.


I only know what has happened to me. Tests done in the field of recovery in hospitals tend to support ths as well

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

[Don S]

Actually, the best known tests haven't stood up to objective review or been replicated. But there is evidence that praying for your own health, and simply being religious, correlates with better health.

"According to Dr. Harold Koenig, an associate professor of medicine at Duke University and the country's leading authority on faith-and-medicine studies, academic research does show that prayer has beneficial health effects, although mainly for the person who does the praying. Studies of "intercessory" prayer--Person A prays for the health of Person B--find scant if any effect. But studies of "petitionary" prayer, in which a person prays for his or her own health or peace of mind, show tangible statistical results. When you pray for your own health--especially your own mental health, in cases of clinical depression--science suggests you may be on solid ground."

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/69/story_6991_1.html

Don S

[Andy F]

I actually like honest straight forward religious or spiritual people. I know what I am looking at because they're not pretending to be anything else. And they are not obliged to please me. And, they may even be right. I don't feel the 12 steps are as easily identifiable.

[2dayzmuse]

I don't feel the 12 steps are as easily identifiable.

As far as spirituality goes? Is that what you mean? Just curious.

[Andy F]

Hi 2dm

I don't want to start an argument. They are an attempt at an all inclusive compromise. Their origins and motive are not as clearly or easily identifiable as a straight forward bible person. The waters have been muddied.

[2dayzmuse]

Hi Andy, no worries. No arguement from me. I was just trying to get a better understanding of what you were stating. And I do understand what it is you are saying. I don't have enough AA experience under my belt to have a strong opinion about the comparision one way or another. I do know the waters, muddied or not, have helped me immensly. It's all about spirituality for me, not religion.

On a side note. I had a nice conversation tonight with a man who was raised Catholic and was made to go to parochial school. He wants nothing to do with structured religion at all at this point in his life. I seem to hear stories like this allot. I find the rebellious aspect that some get into interesting. I don't know. I just thought I'd mention that for no particular reason. I guess I can relate better to spirituality over somebody elses interpretation of the bible. Thats all for now. Time to call it a night. Past my bed time.

[3legacy]

Originally Posted by EdLova

Here's some truth for some of you..Just because I have frequently seen some members here who are having some trouble with the word "GOD" and how some of us use it..

If you're having trouble with God and you have some time away from a drink, trust me, you ain't had a 1st step experience

Who the hell would have trouble with the "God issue" once they see their truth in the 1st step?

(((((((EdLova))))))))
I've had an honest to God 1st Step experience. I've also had spiritual experiences and continue my awakening daily. Somedays, I am more sleepy than others. I still have troubles with God but not necessarily with the "God issue". My problems are usually of my own making and generally manifest through my interacting with my fellows.



Today, I thank God for all 12 Steps and so much more. It has taken all of these Steps & even more for me to deal with my own personal issues.

Thanks for not jumping on and off this thread argumentively and joining into the debating society. I found myself "convinced" by having walked into the first few chapters of the Big Book with a caring gentleman who's personal religious convictions never once entered the picture. His personal religious leanings, I still have no idea about. I'm grateful the anti-religious mindset I packed into AA when arriving at the doors were dealt with quite well in the Chapter to the Agnostic. Lack of power was my dilemma.

My powerlessness over alcohol and the unmanagability of my own life was quite evident. I am grateful to have "found" access to that power by honestly clearing away many of my old prejudices and continuing to find more out about me in the inventory steps. My way did not work. So I was honestly willing to give the AA way an open-minded shot. I am still here and still trying to be honest, willing, and open-minded. A friend tells me to be more open-minded, but I often reply never so open-minded that my brains falls out. ;-)

Early on in my recovery, some of the stuff I saw began to bother me. Many members were claiming hipocracy & self-righteousness of others. Egotistical approaches were not strictly coming from only the more religious members. Both sides debating in these arguments used to really **** me off. It was OK for some members in the rooms to have a lightbulb(like myself), or nature as their HP and OK for them to talk on incessantly in the sharing about their HP. To others the broad brushed HP was OK to speak of, but anyone saying GOD would subsequently often be attacked in the following shares.

The Anti-God faction could bash religion and even get chuckles & applause while using the name of anothers Higher Power in vain. Many meetings I attended left me wondering if mutual respect could ever be possible in Alcoholics Anonymous. The member who happened to have Jesus as their HP was often chastised, attacked, brow-beat, etc... Why? I'm not really sure. Sometimes it appeared they had been leading with the chin promoting their HP and at other times they had only spoke their Lords name in praise.

Those members with particular religious affiliations and leanings would often fade out of the meetings I was attending, especially those held at the fellowship halls that had no group conscience for discussing & dealing with such issues of concern. Eventually, I found out that many of the more religious oriented members had actually moved on to functioning home groups elsewhere. One in particular said he was less likely to be personally attacked for his own convictions there.

I'm personally grateful that my sponsor walked me into the full meal deal of our Program of Recovery, Unity, & Service. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, Ken S passed on this message to me. Through his own experience, strength and hope he shared while opening our literature with me, allowing me to draw my own conclusions. When I argued and tried twisting bits and pieces to prove a ridiculous point, he laughed heartily and told me what I tell many others today..... Though I had come to scoff, I've remained to pray.

I see hipocrits, apologists, and so much more just on this forum. I am one of them today.

I've seen my truth in the first Step and even more than just there. I see much through the wonderful practical experience I've been given since surrendering to my personal alcoholic dilemma. John Barleycorn did well in "convincing" me.

((((((((((((((EdLova & SR A-Z, #'s included)))))))))))
Kiss Heart of Spirit but never any butts
In Love & Service,
3 Legacy

[BaBa OReiley]

i think maybe some god somewhere, somehow seemed to have stiffled ed!

now if you don't believe in a power greater than all of us..............LOL

[2dayzmuse]

By the way... Where is Ed? He came and he went. Did he sneak out the back door? I was honestly looking forward to his response to a few of these posts.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Don,

thanks for that link. I recall reading a story that gave more compelling results. I don't recall where though.

I've only got to worry about my spirituality. I can't offer any firm eviedence one way or the other. I only know when, I was at my lowest point, I called out and it's been a lot better since.