Post by Edlova

[Millwallj]

This to me sums up the silence you dont hear in meetings, its brillaint:

NO IT DOES NOT!

Life goes on with or without you whether you stay sober or not..Or whether you live on a spiritual basis or not life still goes on..People get over stuff and people live and die..People get resentments..Most of the spiritual people I know are the ones that keep f***n' up..Those are the ones who are walking in the spiritual path..the ones who get to make mistakes and take the appropriate actions behind them to try and turn them into assets and get current with their amends and their relationship with the Creator of the Universe..

How can I as a recovered alcoholic tell you that I have trancended resentment? How can I tell you that I have trancended fear? I'm a human being that's what WE DO..we create our own problems and our own pain and suffering, the beauty of it is that God loves us so much he gives us that freedom to DELIBERATELY create and manufacture our own mess..

Life does not get easier..Life is just life..Nothing is more difficult or more easier than anything since I didnt drink anymore..BIG DEAL!!

God removed that obsession but the boss doesn't care..All he wants is an honest day's work..The kids and the wife are not gonna understand, but all they want is DAD back in their life, you follow me?

Maximum service means MAXIMUM SERVICE..The length of time you have sober has nothing to do with how easy life gets..What kind of lies do we tell people when we say "It will just get better if you just dont drink"...Isn't great that God gives those of us who recover from alcoholism the grace and dignity to get through some of the tough times we experience in life..Maybe because on the other side of difficulty and the overcoming of it, there is after all a beneficial aspect to it..It's called, LIVING

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that to me cuts out all the hocus pocus, 'promises this, promises that' stuff. WE ARE JUST HUMAN BEINGS. which is REAL HUMILITY. just cos we cant drink does not mean anything mystical. its a ILLNESS remember. i get sick and tired of people fighting and fighting to get SERENITY and end up just chasing their tails; i get tired of them because i am tired of doing it myself. life is the key - just the fact of being alive - gods will or not, that is the miricle. i stopped long ago going to AA for some some majical therapy or a personality surgery. i am me. i am alive. so are you.

AA can get caught up in its weird, illogical language, far too much for my liking.

[FriendofBill]

Millwallj,

You seem so hostile and angry towards AA.

Why?

[Music]

The secret is this for me. I don't get all caught up in someone else's program. My wife and I have been married going on 43 years and the main reason we're together today in spite of us both being recovering drunks is that when it comes to our AA programs, we keep our mouths shut. We ask each other questions on occasion, but we never argue about what either of us should do or say. My AA program is my personal business and I'll either succeed or fail on my own merits...thankyou very much. We all have both differences and similarities in how we practice our programs, and the only true test of someone's success, is not taking a drink today.

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by FriendofBill

Millwallj,

You seem so hostile and angry towards AA.

Why?

please explain?

[EdLova]

Originally Posted by Music

The secret is this for me. I don't get all caught up in someone else's program. My wife and I have been married going on 43 years and the main reason we're together today in spite of us both being recovering drunks is that when it comes to our AA programs, we keep our mouths shut. We ask each other questions on occasion, but we never argue about what either of us should do or say. My AA program is my personal business and I'll either succeed or fail on my own merits...thankyou very much. We all have both differences and similarities in how we practice our programs, and the only true test of someone's success, is not taking a drink today.

wow..why would you not want to share the most important relationship in your life with the most important person in your life?

I know couples who also keep their programs seperate..Man..what a way to live!

It's no wonder they keep screwing eachother over..

I've actually heard of couples going through the work together, because they seek a deeper relationship with the God that is keeping them sober..

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by Music

The secret is this for me. I don't get all caught up in someone else's program. My wife and I have been married going on 43 years and the main reason we're together today in spite of us both being recovering drunks is that when it comes to our AA programs, we keep our mouths shut. We ask each other questions on occasion, but we never argue about what either of us should do or say. My AA program is my personal business and I'll either succeed or fail on my own merits...thankyou very much. We all have both differences and similarities in how we practice our programs, and the only true test of someone's success, is not taking a drink today.

couldnt agree more.

today I have to retain my sense of individuality, otherwise I just pathologise myself and feel seperate. For me I have had unsettling experiences with lying to myself about what I believe and dont believe - i.e I thought being nervous for a job interview was signs of 'illness'. Which, in my reality, is bullship.

That is why I posted about sharing with others outside of AA and it making me feel intensley humand and understood. for they too could identify and nod their heads. where as in a meeting, some would have turned it into a symptom of alcaholisim, which maybe true. but not for me. not today.

Thanks music, you made a lot of sense.

[EdLova]

Originally Posted by Millwallj

couldnt agree more.

today I have to retain my sense of individuality, otherwise I just pathologise myself and feel seperate. For me I have had unsettling experiences with lying to myself about what I believe and dont believe - i.e I thought being nervous for a job interview was signs of 'illness'. Which, in my reality, is bullship.

That is why I posted about sharing with others outside of AA and it making me feel intensley humand and understood. for they too could identify and nod their heads. where as in a meeting, some would have turned it into a symptom of alcaholisim, which maybe true. but not for me. not today.

Thanks music, you made a lot of sense.

That feeling of seperation is due to unfinished amends compiled with quite possibly some unwritten inventory..If you are free you do not need to be an individual or stand out or stand in..If you are free, wont need to be seperate or confined or attached..

Your "need" to retain your sense of individuality can be fatal if you are an alcoholic

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by EdLova

That feeling of seperation is due to unfinished amends compiled with quite possibly some unwritten inventory..If you are free you do not need to be an individual or stand out or stand in..If you are free, wont need to be seperate or confined or attached..

Your "need" to retain your sense of individuality can be fatal if you are an alcoholic

This is interesting. I dont think I understand it so maybe I should not comment.

Which kind of confirms my point. I am not going to feel guilt or fear because I dont understand.

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by EdLova

That feeling of seperation is due to unfinished amends compiled with quite possibly some unwritten inventory..If you are free you do not need to be an individual or stand out or stand in..If you are free, wont need to be seperate or confined or attached..

Your "need" to retain your sense of individuality can be fatal if you are an alcoholic

How do you know that, for me, being "free" is having a strong sense of self? Hmmmmmm feels like pshological captialisim to me.

[EdLova]

and how is that workin out for you?

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by EdLova

That feeling of seperation is due to unfinished amends compiled with quite possibly some unwritten inventory..If you are free you do not need to be an individual or stand out or stand in..If you are free, wont need to be seperate or confined or attached..

Your "need" to retain your sense of individuality can be fatal if you are an alcoholic

I am not really being argumentative here - although you have said I am in a dangerous place (for advice or spiritual arrogance?) - but are you sure about what you have just said: is open for interpretation for example? Scientific ones?

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by EdLova

and how is that workin out for you?

I am saying that what you percieve to be a state of being free might be different to mine; mine for example - due to childhood, biology, environment - might be totally different to yours.

So for you to presume - on only, I gather, guidance from AA - that I am in danger for wanting to be an individual - is rather sweeping and dramatic. And not needed?

[EdLova]

Is what you perceive and believe working for you?

It's not about what I know or what anyone else knows..Is everything you already know working for you? If it is then disregard anything anyone else says about what you already know about your current ideas, beliefs and knowledge because you probably dont need an open mind and a new experience

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by EdLova

How is this belief of yours working for you?

working for? what belief? My WHOLE belief system or just this one?

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by EdLova

Is what you perceive and believe working for you?

It's not about what I know or what anyone else knows..Is everything you already know working for you? If it is then disregard anything anyone else says about what you already know about your current ideas, beliefs and knowledge because you probably dont need an open mind and a new experience

I totally agree - its up to me to be openminded after all. All I can tell you is what I believe in, that belief being shapped through exprience. I cant talk about things are not there, nor ones that do not make sense to me.

I have spent the last two years: nodding when I didnt understand; smiling when I felt like pants; walking around pissed off when I felt happy. I was a walking paradox - and all this happened in meetings. So now I am getting honest, and I honestly say that most of what I have heard over the past few years makes little or no sense to me (on many levels).

But I am willing. And I love what I do understand. And that is enough.

[Chy]

Ya know Mill sometimes it's best to agree when you disagree with people who have all the answers and move on. I don't explain my belief system to anyone especially when they don't really care anyway and only want to argue it as like I said they already have all the answers and thrive to belittle others, not worth it IMO.

[FriendofBill]

Mill...

I dont know how much mroe I can explain my question. I impression of yor posts are they are angry, combative, defensive,,especially as it conerns the program of AA.

kinda feels like I may have touched a sore spot, which was not the intention. I genuinely would like to know why, if you decided it aint the palce for you, which is OK, are you so "attached" to putting it down?

Live and Let live of others who do value it's importance in thier life, is my motto.

[Music]

Originally Posted by EdLova

wow..why would you not want to share the most important relationship in your life with the most important person in your life?

I know couples who also keep their programs seperate..Man..what a way to live!

It's no wonder they keep screwing eachother over..

I've actually heard of couples going through the work together, because they seek a deeper relationship with the God that is keeping them sober..

Come on Ed. Stop reading between the lines just to prop up your point. I didn't say we don't share our program. I said we mind our own business unless we're asked. We share our programs with each other by staying sober and continuing to make our relationship better. We DON'T take each others inventories, which might be something you'd want to consider. You know the old saying about keeping one's own side of the street clean? Well, you go ahead and **** up your side of the rope. I've run out of water.

PS...Ed, you talk about being free. I'm free to have my own program to share as I wish, even if I am married. Also, I'm free to set boundaries as to what I will and will not discuss with anyone I choose, including my wife.

[Millwallj]

Originally Posted by Music

Come on Ed. Stop reading between the lines just to prop up your point. I didn't say we don't share our program. I said we mind our own business unless we're asked. We share our programs with each other by staying sober and continuing to make our relationship better. We DON'T take each others inventories, which might be something you'd want to consider. You know the old saying about keeping one's own side of the street clean? Well, you go ahead and **** up your side of the rope. I've run out of water.

PS...Ed, you talk about being free. I'm free to have my own program to share as I wish, even if I am married. Also, I'm free to set boundaries as to what I will and will not discuss with anyone I choose, including my wife.

I like your posts Music - there is a down to earthness there, a tangable-ness (is that a word!!!).

[Dan]

Hi Mill.
When I arrived at SoberRecovery, I noticed Music's posts right away.
And as we got to know eachother and started corresponding a bit, one thing became clear. He's a genuine man, with a genuine desire to help a suffering brother or sister.
His politics suck, but I love him anyway
We respect eachother.

[Chy]

When I first arrived, he scared me, *LOL*.. seriously though, I needed to hear his honest experience and perspective as I crawled through those doors, now I have a dear friend with a big shoulder! He's probalby one of the most genuine people I know.