ALCOHOL is a DRUG !!

[KEEGANSDAD]

Hi Tricky,

AA has a singleness of purpose.

Clanci E. explained it to me like this, If a Drug Addict
Is sharing at a meeting and a NEW Alcoholic walks in the
Door hearing about Drugs Only--- He May walk out and DIE
Because he could not identify with another Alcoholic.

This is serious buisness.

Please Study the Traditions !!!!!!!!!!!!

Keegansdad

[Wilky]

Quoted from aaprimarypurpose.org
"A.A.’s Singleness of Purpose,
So often in A.A., everything old is new again. Today, for instance, many people suffering a variety of ailments other than alcoholism are steered to A.A., causing confusion among members and the professional community alike. A new problem? Not at all. More than 40 years ago the Fellowship was faced with a similar conflict, and Bill W.’s response cut to the heart of A.A.’s reason for being, its singleness of purpose.
“Sobriety—freedom from alcohol—through the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of an A.A. group,” he wrote in the February 1958 issue of the A.A. Grapevine. “Groups have repeatedly tried other activities, and they have always failed. It has also been learned that there is no possible way to make nonalcoholics into A.A. members. We have to confine our membership to alcoholics, and we have to confine our A.A. groups to a single purpose. If we don’t stick to these principles, we shall almost certainly collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone.”

Ed:

You said:

The fact is that AA's responsibility is not to HELP people..If helping people is our priority then that would be all we need to do to stay sober--then there must be something we can do to stay sober now isn't there? Human Power huh?..

Nope. No human power could have relieved our alcholism. This is true. Bill W. and I, obviously have a different interpretation of the word "help" than you do. Page 97 3rd edition of the BB explains my position perfectly. Make no mistake I know what works.

"For alcoholics that's just not the case..Our job as recovered alcoholics is to get the newcomer connected to the Power that WILL help him/her..Let the work in the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book convince them that they are alcoholics..Now that takes work doesn't it? It would actually mean that people would have to actually SPONSOR to help newcomers get CLEAR on whether they have this disease or not..

My job as a recovered alcoholic is to carry the message. I can not get any newcomer "connected" to God. This is something they must do on their own, and I am certain that God may have a choice in the matter.

I can convince any alcoholic that they are an alcoholic. The book tells me to do it, and tells shows me how. The 12 steps will not convince anyone that they are an alky. Chapter 5 states...."if you want what we have"......this means BEFORE you work the steps you must decide you want what they have. This means you have to figure out what it is that they have that you may want. Sobriety? Spiritual Experience? Woman? Car? Money?

The simple statement: If you loose control over the amount you drink, you are probably alcoholic. Guess what? Normal people don't loose control over the amount they drink. Also, normal people don't find it necessary to drink. AND normal people don't end up in an AA meeting. Strange how that works.

Tricky,
Stop with the insistance that we accept you into an AA meeting. Go to NA. There, now I have HELPED you as much as is required of me.

Wilky

[Tricky]

NOT once have i been rude or agreesive to any of you, i love A.A and the programme 99.9% except me its just the odd ones that dont.. .selfish, igronant, people such as yourself.. i can see youve let go let god and im glad i dont have to go to your group as you would push me away. . i can see how well you are. . . i wont post or put any threads on A.A again, im sorry for putting you out. grow up""ps, never go to N.A meeting, who knows...what goes around comes around. . . peace to all of you and thankyou for your replys and kind words of wisdom on this subject......x

[Andy F]

'Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism'

It doesn't say those who 'only' suffer from alcoholism. It says ALL who suffer from alcoholism. It doesn't say your primary drug of choice must be alcohol.

If an NA member believes that alcohol is a problem for him, then that is enough. It is irrelevant that he has other problems. He or she has qualified for any meeting. Legitimately. This does not interfere with AA's singleness of purpose. Neither does the fact that this member might talk about his other experiences with other drugs. Afterall, I listen to alsorts of experience in AA that is not directly related to alcohol. I listen to AA's going on about their spending habits, their relationship problems, their penchant for chocolate, their rebellious kids, their money problems, their credit card bill, the boss they hate, and endless stuff personal to them.

I would be a bit careful about asking people to leave closed meetings. The only authority in AA is not the group conscience, but supposed to be the voice of a loving God expressing himself through the group conscience. This relates back to the days of the Oxford groups when they believed that they could directly receive instruction from God. A group conscience was held to discuss everyones experience in quiet time to ascertain what experiences, thoughts that came to them in prayer and meditaion were the voice of God and which were their own. So when you ask that person who has a desire to stop drinking to leave an AA meeting it is not supposed to be the groups overall personal opinion, but what the group perceive as God's voice or will.

Good luck.

[BikerBill8]

Hey Tricky, You can post anywhere you like I think that you are a good person. Post here don't let wisguys like them push you out.

[CrowBar]

Beverage alcohol contrary to popular belief, is the most-widely used psycoactive "drug" known to humankind other than tobacco. Nuff Said

[Gooch]

Been watching this discussion for over 18 years in a myriad of manners. Only thing thats changed is the discussers. The ones I know from AA and NA that best carry the message have quit beating a dead horse. They welcome everyone and let the message do the talking.

Addiction .. the "ism" doesn't care what horse any of us rode in on. It really only wants to see us ride out like baggage across the horses ass.

[Wilky]

Originally Posted by Gooch

Been watching this discussion for over 18 years in a myriad of manners. Only thing thats changed is the discussers. The ones I know from AA and NA that best carry the message have quit beating a dead horse. They welcome everyone and let the message do the talking.

Addiction .. the "ism" doesn't care what horse any of us rode in on. It really only wants to see us ride out like baggage across the horses ass.

Yep, me too....but the difference is that I respect the traditions of AA, without which the oldtimers would have been gone when you got here!

Wilky

[Wilky]

Andy,
If you don't read what others are posting then there isn't much of a two way dialogue going, is there?

“Sobriety—freedom from alcohol—through the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of an A.A. group,”

Does this statement help you any?

Wilky

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Wilky

I can convince any alcoholic that they are an alcoholic. The book tells me to do it, and tells shows me how.

Well, taken at face value, that statement could easily be termed a crock.
The book speaks of real alcoholics, or so I keep hearing from the likes of you and whoever else is chanelling Bill these days.
So now, again, at face value, any alcoholic can be convinced?

Yeah, yeah, I know...
Splitting hairs and picking at gnats.


As for your comment about respecting the trads, well, once again Wilky ol' chap, you seem to be displaying some higher sanctum knowledge that I can probably only aspire too.
's okay though.

[EdLova]

Originally Posted by Wilky

The simple statement: If you loose control over the amount you drink, you are probably alcoholic. Guess what? Normal people don't loose control over the amount they drink. Also, normal people don't find it necessary to drink. AND normal people don't end up in an AA meeting. Strange how that works.
Wilky

There are many people who have been to several treatment centers and some of them have lost legs and arms in sprees..Some of them have been to as many or more jails and institutions and have probably died a few years before their time as well..But some of those people THANK GOD..All they ever needed was a fairly sufficient reason..And they can stop..or moderate

The measure of your alcoholism is not the manifestation of the physical craving, the mental obsession, or the spiritual malady..

It is about whether you lost the power to choose whether you are gonna drink or not..

It's not about the amount or the intake or the external things that occur as a result of the physical craving or the mental obsession or the spiritual malady..It's not even the event that brings you into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous that makes you alcoholic or not..

It's about stopping when you want to stop..CAN YOU STOP FOREVER AND EVER!? can you in fact given sufficiently fair reason to stop, STOP!??

It's not about losing control it's about losing the power to choose..is that your experience or not? If it's not then you (I'm not saying you, I mean to those who this does not apply) probably never needed a spiritual solution to your problem, you might still have a choice..

I've seen normal people end up in AA all the time..We are ALL normal..The only thing that makes us a completely distinct entity is the phenomenon of craving and our inability to leave it alone no matter how great the necessity or the wish..This is the powerlessness in Step 1

[Andy F]

Originally Posted by Wilky

Andy,
If you don't read what others are posting then there isn't much of a two way dialogue going, is there?

“Sobriety—freedom from alcohol—through the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of an A.A. group,”

Does this statement help you any?

Wilky

I have read what you and others have posted. I'm sorry if it appears to you that I am not listening. Like you, I also appreciate the futility of dialogue that is not two-way. I am not setting out to annoy you by disagreeing with you. I thought we shared some common views, but perhaps I have not explained myself very well.

This thread was started by an NA member who has attended AA. If he has a desire to stop drinking then he becomes an AA member when at an AA meeting. I agree with AA's primary singleness of purpose, this is not breached in this instance and it is not meant to be a gagging order for members with other experience.

What I am beginning to wonder is if some peoples objection is not based on a desire to uphold our traditions, but is merely a reflection of a personal desire to exclude members who don't fit into a nice easy pigeon hole definition. A bit like in AA's early days when some people wanted to exclude anyone who had an additional mental health issue. This would reflect a highly subjective personal viewpoint and not the traditions at all. Is that possible?

[Gooch]

Originally Posted by Wilky

Yep, me too....but the difference is that I respect the traditions of AA, without which the oldtimers would have been gone when you got here!

Wilky

? Sorry I didn't see any indication in my post of any disrespect for the traditions by myself or those members of both fellowships who earned my respect by accepting the still suffering as they reached out, and setting an example of the steps and traditions being practiced, not preached.

I'm sorry you feel it so necessary to be "different" .. it can be a lonley place once the fanfares and cheers die out.

[lulu70]

From the big book of Alcholics Anonymous, p.30:

We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking.

One of the things I love the most about AA and the basic text is that it leaves much up for individual interpretation. However, it is unfortunate that some memebers have decided that their interpretation is the "right" one. Another thing I love about the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is that it has taught me that there is a Higher Power, and I am not it.

I, like MANY others, am a member of AA who also used other drugs--to the point of knowing that I am also an addict. When I share in meetings, I often share about my drug use as well as my problems with alcohol. They are inextricably intertwined. I have also been to closed meetings where other member introduced themselves as alcoholics/addicts, or just as an addict. No problem. We do not worry about an alcholic wondering if they have come to the right place. There will be plenty of other people sharing about their experience with alcohol. Besides, if a newcomer wants to find a reason to NOT come to AA, they will find it--Addicts present or not.

I would agree that our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcholics to acheive sobriety. However, I believe we have secondary purposes as well. If any group I attend were to turn someone away because of the way they introduced themselves, or what they talked about in a meeting, it would jeopordize my sobriety and the sobriety of many others in the group. AA has taught me to be a more tolerant, compassionate and empathetic human being, and that has allowed me to begin to learn to love myself. Turning someone away goes directly against those principles.

Peace to all--

[Wilky]

Originally Posted by DangerousDan

Well, taken at face value, that statement could easily be termed a crock.
The book speaks of real alcoholics, or so I keep hearing from the likes of you and whoever else is chanelling Bill these days.
So now, again, at face value, any alcoholic can be convinced?

Yeah, yeah, I know...
Splitting hairs and picking at gnats.


As for your comment about respecting the trads, well, once again Wilky ol' chap, you seem to be displaying some higher sanctum knowledge that I can probably only aspire too.
's okay though.

So, Dan, my man....what IS a REAL alcoholic?

Wilky

[Wilky]

LULU....you said:

If any group I attend were to turn someone away because of the way they introduced themselves, or what they talked about in a meeting, it would jeopordize my sobriety and the sobriety of many others in the group. AA has taught me to be a more tolerant, compassionate and empathetic human being, and that has allowed me to begin to learn to love myself. Turning someone away goes directly against those principles.

Would you care to explain this a little further? I don't understand how ANY group, and what they do or don't do, can affect your sobriety?

Also, ego-mania is basically love of self. How can you begin to learn to love yourself when the entire book is geared to getting rid of self? Self love got me here.

Wilky

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Wilky

So, Dan, my man....what IS a REAL alcoholic?

Wilky

I admit it.
I'm not a real alcoholic. I don't know what Bill meant when that was written in the book. I've asked many people, and read a lot of articles on the subject. It's been a discussion topic in a lot of meetings I've attended.
So I have to come to the conclusion that there are some things I'll probably never understand.
And the term real alcoholic is one of them.
Doesn't mean I think Bill was full of sh!t.
Simply means that I don't relate to it. I can't apply it to my lived experience.

I also believe that anyone who asks the question you just asked me really isn't looking for an answer, but rather a platform to educate the less enlightened.

My unmanageable life was a direct result of my abusing alcohol.
That's all I need to know in order to apply the solution.

Capish?

[2dayzmuse]

what IS a REAL alcoholic?

Here we go again...

[Dan]

Originally Posted by 2dayzmuse

Here we go again...

Nope, not me

[2dayzmuse]

[mackat]

hee hee
remminds me of ol
Dan C
went to a bunch of meetings where a guy kept introducing himself as a "grade 4 alcoholic"

man that guy must've been a hellof a drunk- i wonder how many grades there are?

took months before he heard it as "grateful".....

[Chy]

[Wilky]

What amazes me is the number of folks who spew big book like they know what it says, but CLEARLY have no idea about what is written therein. They go to meetings and spew their goo, and all those who have never gotten beyond the two step waltz, think they have actually worked the steps.

The hope of this program is the maintenance and growth of a spiritual experience. Half measures avail us nothing. This is really evident within this thread.

I happen to know that the traditions are inspired, as is the big book, by God. They have been given to us as a society to hold us together. Make no mistake that there are alot of old timers, like myself, that WILL strive to keep hold our local groups to the traditions and keep focused on our primary purpose. I will give any non-alcoholic a schedule of NA, GA, CA, OA, MA, ect.... meetings and show him the door.

Dan, no games to be played. Just like to let you know, that I know that you don't know.

2dayz: if it needs to be discussed 100 times, is there a problem with that? Some NEED to hear it that many times before the ego will let down the walls.

HE HE.

Wilky

[Dan]

Originally Posted by Wilky

What amazes me is the number of folks who spew big book like they know what it says, but CLEARLY have no idea about what is written therein. They go to meetings and spew their goo, and all those who have never gotten beyond the two step waltz, think they have actually worked the steps.

The hope of this program is the maintenance and growth of a spiritual experience. Half measures avail us nothing. This is really evident within this thread.

I happen to know that the traditions are inspired, as is the big book, by God. They have been given to us as a society to hold us together. Make no mistake that there are alot of old timers, like myself, that WILL strive to keep hold our local groups to the traditions and keep focused on our primary purpose. I will give any non-alcoholic a schedule of NA, GA, CA, OA, MA, ect.... meetings and show him the door.

Dan, no games to be played. Just like to let you know, that I know that you don't know.

2dayz: if it needs to be discussed 100 times, is there a problem with that? Some NEED to hear it that many times before the ego will let down the walls.

HE HE.

Wilky

Here's some of the goo spewed on me that stuck.

Get a sponsor.
Write.
Go to meetings.
Call your sponsor.
Write.
Be of service.
Listen.
Write.
Call your sponsor.

Here's some of the goo spewed that doesn't stick.

Any AA member that is inane enough to pretend knowing what's going to keep me sober. Compound that with **** poor communication skills, and it's like a three ring circus sans peanuts.
Translation: It's just not worth showing up for the performance.

You're clear.
You don't want non-alcoholics in your house.
I'm over it.

[tyler]

Well everyone else is chiming in so I figure I might as well!! Pot is my DOC, I was always able to control my drinking. I could never understand someone who couldn't stop drinking, it was just never that way with me. I would say I abused alcohol rather than was addicted to it. Pot was a whole other story. I would do almost anything to get it and stay high. I got high in the bathroom at my kids 2nd birthday party for criss sakes!! My wife had to tell me that guests were complaining that somebody was smoking pot in the bathroom. I have used and abused other drugs as well, but they never gave me the same compulsion to use. That said, when I went to NA meetings I never felt it necessary to identify myself as a marajuana addict, though I really feel that is the only drug I'm addicted to. I chose to attend NA meetings, as I did not feel my problem was with alcohol, however in my stints in rehab we were required to attend meetings of both fellowships. I did resent this, but this was my issue, out of respect to AA, I would identify myself as an alcoholic. For that matter, I always thought it was out of place when people would go to lengths to describe themselves as, "I'm so and so and by God's good grace I'm a greatful recovering alcoholic...or whatever" Just identify yourself by your name and I'm and alcoholic at AA and an addict at NA. Anything else seems to be screaming, "Look at me!!!" If you need attention get it when you share, not in your introduction. That's it for me!!