ALCOHOL is a DRUG !!

[Tricky]

Mackat,

isnt this disease . . cunning, baffeling and sneaky. . . or should that be powerful ?
im not sure. . im too sick im in recovery. . .

[BaBa OReiley]

wasn't criticising you tricky, only giving my perception on things. as for the sponsor ringing you, wouldn't it be nice if someone was always there to save me when i was about to pick up? my sobriety doesn't work that way. i have to take the actions to save my own butt.

my sobriety is based on total unconditional surrender to the disease of addiction. i'm willing to do anything for my sobriety. if that means not mentioning drugs in certain AA meetings than by all means i will refrain from taking about drugs at those meetings. in the meantime i would seek out other meetings where the members don't get so upity about drugs.

my recovery is all about taking suggestions, not questioning them. wasn't trying to knock you tricky, just saying what i do.

keep coming back, you'll find the meetings and sponsor you need and like.

[Dan]

Tricky, take a look at your NA basic text if you have one.
Page 82.
We are not responsible for our disease, only for our recovery.

Whenever I have any doubts about someone owing me something, be it a phone call or a good word or whatever else, I try and remember those simple words.
I'm I'm hurting, It's my responsibility to find healing.
If I'm obsessing about drink or drug, it's my responsibility to call my sponsor or a peer in the fellowship.

Soon as I think someone owes me something, then I'm setting myself up.
And when you look at that objectively, it's typical addict/alcoholic behavior.
Nothing good can come of it.

[justEllen]

When I had just two weeks in recovery, I saw a lady I thought would be a good sponsor for me. I went to her and asked for her phone number. She gave it to me. I offered to give her mine. She said, "If you want what I have, call me. I don't want what you have, so I don't need your phone number." That darned near reduced me to tears. But I wanted sobriety so bad that I didn't let that turn me away. I even had to admit to myself that what she'd said did make sense.

I was taught that it's not my sponsor's job to babysit me. My sponsor agreed to share experience, strength and hope with me, provided I want it enough to ask. She didn't agree to adopt me when she agreed to be my sponsor. She's not going to baby me through anything. She didn't sign on to being my best buddy and pal, either. She just agreed to help me to the best of her ability with any problem I came to her with by sharing what had happened to her, what she did about it, and what it's like for her now. "If you want what I have, you call me." That's the way I was taught that it works and that's what I teach the women I've sponsored.

A sponsor is the most caring, loving person I know. But if they were to chase after me every time I fell out or every time I had a spiritual temper tantrum, she'd be enabling me to stay sick. Thankfully, I haven't had a sponsor like that.

[Kahlia]

I agree with Jlo34...I am an Addict-a DRUG addict..I go to NA...it is different that AA. I used to hit an AA meeting if I was in need of talking and could not find an NA meeting. You need to do what is best for you if you have to form your own damn group....whatever works for YOU. I now go only to NA because I NEVER drank alcohol....I hated it but I loved drugs..go figure. I hope you figure out wht you ned to do but I do agree that you have to call your sponser, they arer NOT babysitter's. Mine let me learn that the hard way....I did not call her for about a month and she did not call me. I wondered why..,.she told me that it was NOT her job.....I got it. Good luck in whatever you do and PEACE...... Kahlia

[Tricky]

On that note, and this is my final statment, you have missed the point... i had been in recovery for some five years, this wasnt just a sponcer, this was my friend, my teacher, he promised me two things "sobriety and fellowship" and told me the way to get these was to help others, ring people, give what i had to keep what i had. do chairs, go to hospitals, go to prisons, carry the message in MY every day life, do the steps, go to meetings, do ninrty in ninety. i did all this for nearly five years. i didnt fall in and out of recovery. it was once!! we can all sit indoors and wait for people to ring or we can be pro-active, if you are sponcers, would you rather go to funerals or make the call? if your going to be a sponcer then help take responcilbility for your sponcees. or are you still hiding behind recovery and "well im sick too" cross that bridge to normality, if you cant or dont really want to go the whole way dont sponcer"" i did, i didnt chase them but if i hadnt heard from them id ring, if i dont how can i possibly know that there dads died or there bang in trouble, in your thinking i should let them be and let them go back out there, why ? i didnt preach to them to ring others and then not do it myself, with clean time behind us we know that a relapse doesnt take place when they pick up it started two or three months ago. should we stand by and watch them kill themselfs because they dont know any better and havent got the knoldge we have. . . i will not let a sponcee learn by his/her mistakes because its life and death. . . you just keep hiding behind "its there recovery and we"ll just keep losing people to this fu*ked up disease.

[2dayzmuse]

My addiction, my responsibility. I've got to do my part in recovery. Nobody is going to do it for me. Others may offer help through suggestions, but it is up to me to follow through and take action.

As far as, a drug, is a drug, is a drug. It is? Alright, not worth arguing about it to me. I had a problem with alcohol. I was never the least bit interested in other drugs. I would go to any lengths to get the next drink, but wouldn't touch anything other than booze. When others start to talk about their drug addiction at an AA meeting, I will listen intently. I'm able to have compassion for their pain, but can not relate to drugs. I'm grateful booze didn't lead me down that path. One addiction is one to many for me.

Anyone reaching out for help should never be turned away or ignored. All we can do is plant the seed and hope they get serious enough to do the work and get the job done.

[Cap3]

When i was new to program,i called my sponsor up.She was not home.I called a few other phone numbers,i had recieved from my home group.No answer there either.I was desperate.I was in fear.I was,feeling so many emotions.I needed someone to help me.no answer.What to do?I got down on my knees and prayed,asking God,to please help me.I prayed the 3rd,7th,and 11 step prayers over and over.This was my frist time that i sencerly reached out to God.I felt peace,a peace inside that no human could ever give me.No one was in the way.It was God and me.He either is or His not.He is.I reached out to Him.This was my journey towards God.And still continues to this day.He is always home.He will always answer..Im an alcoholic who carryies the, message.Shares my ES,and Hope.How another recieves it,im powerless,over.Im never the results of anothers soberiety..if others think that ive helped them in any way,its only through God,s grace,.

[Time2Surrender]

.At one time or another I have gone through all the same exact feelings as you Tricky.I was able to find reasons why AA/NA wasnt for me.I had expectations of others.Bottom line? My recovery is my responsibility.It is a lotta hard work.But,I think its worth it.I have gotten more outta AA/NA than anything else I have tried.And I have learned the more I put in,the more I get back.

[2dayzmuse]

Originally posted by Cap3
When i was new to program,i called my sponsor up.She was not home.I called a few other phone numbers,i had recieved from my home group.No answer there either.I was desperate.I was in fear.I was,feeling so many emotions.I needed someone to help me.no answer.What to do?I got down on my knees and prayed,asking God,to please help me.I prayed the 3rd,7th,and 11 step prayers over and over.This was my frist time that i sencerly reached out to God.I felt peace,a peace inside that no human could ever give me.No one was in the way.It was God and me.He either is or His not.He is.I reached out to Him.This was my journey towards God.And still continues to this day.He is always home.He will always answer..Im an alcoholic who carryies the, message.Shares my ES,and Hope.How another recieves it,im powerless,over.Im never the results of anothers soberiety..if others think that ive helped them in any way,its only through God,s grace,.

Amen

[mackat]

it IS hard when i feel let down by the ones who helped bring me so far

if you have followed some of my ongoing story you know that my closest friend/sponsor/mentor and biker bro- the guy who was most responsible for my emotional recovery, reconciled me w/ my son, was world delegate and powerful speaker- that guy relapsed...hard.

took a lot of meetings.
and took me getting my head out of my a$$ enough to see that once again i was back into my 'victimhood'

was the reality of my situation a tough thing? damn straight!! but staying in that space, going back to my terminal uniqueness was surely just another set up...

We have a tradition which talks about 'principles before personalities' - and it applies to my personal recovery just as much as it applies to the dynamic of meetings

i cannot choose my emotions- i can choose my reaction to them

mackat

[BikerBill8]

Hi Tricky, I call my sponcer and he calls me he has been my sponcer from day one. If he don't call me i don't get upset he is not my babysitter. It is my responsibility to let him know how i am doing. Also when i go to AA i do as AA does thy treat only alcohol and no other drugs so out of respect to AA don't go to a meeting and just say that you are a addict.

[Time2Surrender]

Originally Posted by BikerBill8

Also when i go to AA i do as AA does thy treat only alcohol and no other drugs so out of respect to AA don't go to a meeting and just say that you are a addict.

Unfortunatly,I fought this one for a few years myself.And as I grew,I learned.Today when I go to AA meetings,I announce myself as an Alcoholic out of respect for AA and the other members.

[Tricky]

after a couple of days of reading your posts and sugestions, i am truly touched by your responces. . . if your new and reading this. . . remember !! this is only my experience, with hand on my heart i can honestly say that nothing has ever worked for me except this progeramme, i tryed putting a toe or foot in but allways fell off. it was only when i jumped in and held my hands up that i got it. i love this programme and its 12 steps, make NO mistake without it i would of been dead or doing a life sentence, my problems have been with the people not the concepts or philosiphy. i am taking responcilbillity for my recovery other wise i wouldnt be sitting here clucking my tits off, as a new commer you may read this and think that it might not be for you , but think how wonderful it is that a load of alcoholics and junkies can have a good sencilble discussion, most of us couldnt string two words together let alone get all philisohpicle [ excuse the spelling] im dispeptic], the bottem line is that it has worked for millions all over the world. . . god bless, Bill, Bob and the 12 steps. This does work if you [REALLY] want it to. . . and god "i want it to".. . . x

[BikerBill8]

Hey Tricky, good for you and thank you for this great thread that you started. Keep comming and keep posting here.

[Wilky]

Well, all is not well.

Before the end of this thread, and to all those who sit in meetings and listen to addicts try to make AA NA, I am going to give my thoughts.

When I sit in an AA meeting and listen to someone identify themselves as an addict, I think to myself, "So, what the hell are you doing here?".

AA is for people who have the disease of alcoholism. If you don't have this disease then why would you be sitting in an AA meeting. If you truly understand why AA is for this class, why would you come and talk **** about addiction? I know from experience that NA frowns on AA'ers coming in and identifying themselves as alkies. Do you expect less from us?

Also, AA's traditions are very clear. The reason we have a singleness of purpose is because we can not help all people as it would distract us from helping ALCOHOLICS. This is our purpose. Sure we could help drug addicts, overeaters, undereaters, abusers, gamblers....ect....ect....ect....however, it take us away from our purpose. To carry the message to ALCOHOLICS.

Therefore, if you come to an ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS meeting and identify yourself as an addict, be prepared to take ****.....AND if it is a closed AA meeting, you will be asked to leave.

My 2 cents worth!

Wilky

[EdLova]

Originally Posted by Wilky

Well, all is not well.
..Also, AA's traditions are very clear. The reason we have a singleness of purpose is because we can not help all people as it would distract us from helping ALCOHOLICS. This is our purpose. Sure we could help drug addicts, overeaters, undereaters, abusers, gamblers....ect....ect....ect....however, it take us away from our purpose. To carry the message to ALCOHOLICS.

The fact is that AA's responsibility is not to HELP people..If helping people is our priority then that would be all we need to do to stay sober--then there must be something we can do to stay sober now isn't there? Human Power huh?..

For alcoholics that's just not the case..Our job as recovered alcoholics is to get the newcomer connected to the Power that WILL help him/her..Let the work in the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book convince them that they are alcoholics..Now that takes work doesn't it? It would actually mean that people would have to actually SPONSOR to help newcomers get CLEAR on whether they have this disease or not..

In a group I frequent there has been a man there who likes to come in and say that he is addicted to Marijuana..The solutions to staying sober (excluding everything the outlined AA program of recovery) that come out of this man's mouth can actually have the power to KILL a newcomer who does not know if he's a real alcoholic ..If I go to a SLAA meeting and walk in because I'm having problems with my Viagra intake I could kill someone in that meeting with the things that I say..

Thank God for those people who actually would have courage enough to take me aside during the meeting and say "excuse me, this is a meeting for sex addicts and if you are an alcoholic you need to go to an AA meeting..heres the number you can call and heres the locaton and schedule"

So this marijuana person I took aside after the meeting and gave him a schedule to an NA meeting Because I'm sure there would be someone there who needs to work with him more than a real alcoholic would..

If youre an alcoholic/addict..welcome to the meeting..If youre not an alcoholic or an addict and if you are the disco variety problem user, then you need to do some great therapy and GO AWAY

Just because you SAY that you are an alcoholic or an addict does not MEAN you are an alcoholic or an addict..The truth is that not EVERYONE who comes to an AA,NA, or CA meeting is an alcoholic or an addict..If youre a cocaine addict primiarily then you need to find your people..If youre an alcoholic, find your people, and if youre a drug or heroin or whatever addict FIND YOUR PEOPLE..They are OUT there trust me..

If youre not gonna sit with someone through the work to let them find out if they are one of us because you dont have time, take two seconds to give them a MEETING SCHEDULE OF OTHER GROUPS IN YOUR AREA THAT DEAL WITH THEIR ADDICTIONS...That's our job

[Andy F]

Wilky

If someone has a desire to stop drinking they are a member of AA when they say so. There is no obligation upon them to call themselves alcoholics or anything at all. My layman understanding of NA would be that they include (if intellectually) powerlessnes over alcohol amongst other substances. Technically the term 'addict' includes an admisssion of powerlessness over alcohol. There is no authority or reason to ask them to leave any meeting.

Personally, I find it tiresome. It's like rebellious children trying to establish themselves etc. For me, I cannot have my own way. I therefore must change my perception of what is going on.

[EdLova]

Originally Posted by Andy F

Wilky

If someone has a desire to stop drinking they are a member of AA when they say so. There is no obligation upon them to call themselves alcoholics or anything at all. My layman understanding of NA would be that they include (if intellectually) powerlessnes over alcohol amongst other substances. Technically the term 'addict' includes an admisssion of powerlessness over alcohol. There is no authority or reason to ask them to leave any meeting.

Personally, I find it tiresome. It's like rebellious children trying to establish themselves etc. For me, I cannot have my own way. I therefore must change my perception of what is going on.

Does anyone else feel like puking?

I'm sure you have plenty of desire chips in your group as you may have a lot less 9 month chips..If you read the Long Form of the 5th and 3rd tradition, they clearly define:

Tradition 5 clearly states: Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose--that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers

Tradition 3 also clearly states: Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation

Just because you say you are an alcoholic does not automatically make you one..And if in your groups, they condone that sort of apathetic viewpoint of the traditions then fine..But in our group we adhere to try to follow our traditions to our very best..If someone comes in and they are not an alcoholic and come into a closed meeting we ask them to leave, no ifs and s or buts..nothing personal. Our group depends on them (the traditions)..Our lives depend on our effective relationship with God that's already keeping us sober, but without that relationship we cannot live up to those traditions..

Saying you're an addict or an alcoholic in an AA meeting is not an automatic admission of powerlessness..That's not even the first step..

[Andy F]

Edlova

What part of 'the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking' don't you understand?

When you invent a machine that tells us who is a real alcoholic and who isn't let me know.

[CarolD]

Well...

How can you work the AA program without being rigorously honest?

Saying you are an alcoholic when you are not is lying.

[EdLova]

Originally Posted by Andy F

Edlova

What part of 'the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking' don't you understand?

When you invent a machine that tells us who is a real alcoholic and who isn't let me know.

If you have ever opened your Big Book lately you might see that in the Forward to the 1st edition it says that the only requirement for drinking at THAT time was an HONEST desire to stop drinking..See the great news now for the nonalcoholic people is that you don't even have to be honest about wanting to stop drinking..You can show up, pull up a chair, drink some coffee, hit on some of those poor dying young men and women alcoholic newcomers, say whatever you want in a meeting cause you just had a bad day and spill your cheap sh** all over the room so everyone can clean it up, and tell everyone how one day at a time you stay sober cause you woke up this morning and chose not to drink..Besides, if you have a room full of people who are dying of untreated alcoholism who are full of fear, of course they are going to be apathetic to that horsh**** and let you sit in and hurt other people because "he said he has a desire to stop drinking.."

It doesn't take a machine to open up a Big Book and and take another dying alcoholic to the path to see the truth about himself and get him connected to the Power that PROBABLY saved YOU..all it really takes is an alcoholic who NEEDS to, WANTS to, HAS to, and LOVES to do the work to maintain a working relationship with the God that is already keeping his ass sober..

If anything I am saying does not apply to you, then maybe you STILL have a choice as to whether or not you are gonna drink again

[Andy F]

First of all I have been, cleary I hope, referring to members of NA who come to meetings and call themselves addicts and not alcoholics. I have stated why in my understanding they are entitled to be at any AA meeting if they have a desire to stop drinking and they are not obliged to specify alcoholic from addict.

It annoys me personally, sometimes, that calling yourself an addict and not an alcoholic is a bit like trying to force NA inclusive views upon AA. But this is my problem. When I am upset about this, this is my problem. These people who include alcohol in their definition of addiction and have a desire to stop drinking are legitimate members of AA, but the problem I create is when they are not living up to my exacting expectations of their behaviour. Now that is not an unfamiliar theme for me. Some would even call it untreated alcoholism!

[Tricky]

Edlova,

people like you are the reason for my feeling [not part of] at meetings,im not trying to change A.A i just want to get well, drinking leads me to my drug of choice, or if im honest its [MORE] drink, heroin,speed, cocaine, what ever is about. in N.A the only drug mentioned in the readings by name is alcohol, it is a drug!! for me anyway, the next time you ask an addict to leave your closed A.A meeting [know this] you could be the straw that breaks the camels back. . . . if someones sitting there they are sick and fragile, do not turn them away, i want to stop killing myself and i think A.A can help me, who are you to deny me the wisdom and knoledge that people in A.A have ?.
i refer you to one of my earlier quotes. . . . . i layed in the gutter and looked down on everybody else!! sorry i forgot your special and different. . . . did you know that theres 50 million people in china whove never heard of you ?. . . .

[mackat]

mackat here

alcohol was my last DOC
i live in an area where there are 5 AA meetings a week in a few thousand sqare miles. Until two years ago there were no NA meetings.

I am grateful that there was an AA meeting that still allowed me to talk about the drugs in my story. Glad that there was an AA that allowed some of my sponsees to come in and they didn't get too upset about "addict" identification. we're small town. We see the pain.
and interestingly enough, a guy w/ multiple decades of sobriety was having to undergo pain management last week which involoved using morphine. He seemed to have no problem asking for my ESH as a recovering opiate addict.

Altho i strongly encourage/respect purity of message in all the programs, i also see god working anytime someone who is struggling with chemical abuse comes in and asks for help.

i cant
god can
i think i'll let him

hugs
mackat